monitor idea

[jason longboard]

i have an old like new horse trough thing that is about 6 foot long 2 or so deep and 2 or so tall.Used to breed my beardeds long ago in it with sand and bricks and branches with water bowl on one side.Lamps can be clamped on the top .I was thinking maybe to set it up like that again for a monitor but was wondering wich ones would size good to it and also not mind being handled.Varanio or any other monitor guys chime in.Just hade this on my mind for a while.Not for sure yet.

[jason longboard]

i have an old like new horse trough thing that is about 6 foot long 2 or so deep and 2 or so tall.Used to breed my beardeds long ago in it with sand and bricks and branches with water bowl on one side.Lamps can be clamped on the top .I was thinking maybe to set it up like that again for a monitor but was wondering wich ones would size good to it and also not mind being handled.Varanio or any other monitor guys chime in.Just hade this on my mind for a while.Not for sure yet.
its very much like this.167538

[Gourami Swami]

Looks pretty cool, but those dimensions will really limit your choices. Beardies again might be a better choice mate.

[jason longboard]

yeah i just would love to have another monitor.I know their are some dwarfs and such.I can google stuff but just checkin here first.It would defenetly need to be a dwarf i know.

[evilxyardxgnome]

Might be able to house an ackie?

[Gourami Swami]

Yeah ackies would be your best bet. Really cool little creatures, but expensive. I guess they all are :)

[jason longboard]

gee wiz they are pricey!

[davo]

there might be a couple of the smaller monitors that might fit, but I guess most would be reasonably expensive to you then if you dont like ackie prices...

[Gourami Swami]

ackies cost what, 350$? To a teenager like myself, working part time and saving for a car, thats alot. Im sure jason is no teenager, but its still a reasonably large sum of money for a lizard.

But, they ARE so damn cool :P

Jason if you cant find any other monitors, there are lots of other cool things for that enclosure.

[jason longboard]

they are very cool and im not in the position at the time to spend that much.Im just getting ideas right now anyways because i was going to sell the enclosure but i think ill keep it now.Feel free to ad any info though,im sure im not the only one who is interested.

[davo]

ackies cost what, 350$? To a teenager like myself, working part time and saving for a car, thats alot. Im sure jason is no teenager, but its still a reasonably large sum of money for a lizard.

But, they ARE so damn cool :P

Jason if you cant find any other monitors, there are lots of other cool things for that enclosure.

sorry but... woooooooooohoo. We've found a reptile that's cheaper here than there! :D
They go for about 85-100 pounds here, and on the classifieds can get them for less now and again. Reds on the other hand... yeah, we are still looking at a large sum of money. Alex did mention though you can't import these animals and we can... Guess that's the difference.

[malawi haps]

Timors would also be a good monitor.

[Gourami Swami]

Why not get a couple beardies? maybe a mate for your Boa? A box turtle or red-foot tortoise? I dont think there are more small affordable monitors.

80-100 pounds? thats like 160-200 US dollars right? The only price I have seen yellows for is almost 300$, and reds for almost 400.

They might go for cheaper, thats just what ive seen.

[jason longboard]

yeah all around 3 to 4 hundred.I bread beardeds for several years,if anything it will be for monitors,some type of skink,or maybe the first few years for a baby desert tort i may adopt.Whats with gila monsters,how come they are not alowed to be had here?Anyway i realy do like the akies but some skinks like a group of fire skinks might be cool.Ive never had any skinks before,who knows just brainstorming.Those metal tubs are great though and like 100 bucks or so.Got it at a feed store.

[Gourami Swami]

BTW, Blue tongued skinks are awesome.

[davo]

reds for 400... thats cheap, I saw them for sale for 500 here, so yeah thats a grand for you guys (and a 1.3 for 3,200-or 6 400 dollars). Yours true reds?

[Gourami Swami]

Not sure. I believe so. Either way, yellows are still 300 and up here.

[evilxyardxgnome]

Maybe a water monitor? Not quite sure how big they get. Alex (varanio) will need to chime in on this thread...

[SimonL]

Maybe a water monitor? Not quite sure how big they get. Alex (varanio) will need to chime in on this thread...


Water's get HUGE....second largest (well heaviest) monitor after the Komodo. That trough would be the water bowl for a adult water lol.

If a ackie is out of the price range, I might suggest a Savannah, peachthroat, mangrove or
argus...

Whats with gila monsters,how come they are not alowed to be had here

I presume because they are native to some parts of CA and could easily survive in the others. Introduced species are bad enough without them being venomous too lol

[evilxyardxgnome]

Yea I wasn't sure how big they actually get, I just know that they sell em at Petco all the time. But then again, it is Petco.

[SimonL]

They are great lizards, real mellow compared to a Nile. Average adult is 5-6 feet long and about 40 lbs. They can weigh over a hundred pounds and approach 9 feet in length.

[Gourami Swami]

Again, if you like the look of gila monsters, Blue tongue skinks are really awesome animals and become quite tame.

http://www.pittstate.edu/biol/nature/blue_tongue_skink.jpg

[SimonL]

Yeah, BTS are awesome. I have an great one that is unfortunately still loose in my basement lol.

[Gourami Swami]

Gasp! Go catch him!

I have no more room for enclosures after I set up my snake tanks- If i did you cna bet i'd have a BTS!

[varanio]

Jason I would suggest a timor monitor group would be fine in that enclosure. Thats about all that would live there comfortablly for the rest of their lives. Two things though. 1. you would need to enclose the top, that would mean cutting out a piece of plexi to fit the trough. Monitors from Indo need lots of humidity and keeping that trough open will subject them to dehydration and escape attempts. 2. Youll need to elevate the enclosure, I do this by throwing two furniture dollies under it. This helps the trough preserve heat rather than have it sit on a cold surface during the winter months. Ill post a pic of a modified trough for you.

[varanio]

pic

[jason longboard]

pic
hey looks kinda like this one from pro exotics.167888is yours on youtube i could swear i saw the same one with the same decor and somebody feeding monitors?

[jason longboard]

Jason I would suggest a timor monitor group would be fine in that enclosure. Thats about all that would live there comfortablly for the rest of their lives. Two things though. 1. you would need to enclose the top, that would mean cutting out a piece of plexi to fit the trough. Monitors from Indo need lots of humidity and keeping that trough open will subject them to dehydration and escape attempts. 2. Youll need to elevate the enclosure, I do this by throwing two furniture dollies under it. This helps the trough preserve heat rather than have it sit on a cold surface during the winter months. Ill post a pic of a modified trough for you.
so its too small for the akies?I just like the thought of more desert guys than needing high humidity.Still just brainstorming.Still might use it for something else but your input is appreciated varanio.

[CTU2fan]

I'd have thought maybe something like V. storri or red ackies might work; I'm told yellows get approach 3 feet so maybe a big big for the trough...I'll defer to varanio though re: the monitors.

Some other things you could maybe try in there are the already mentioned BT skinks, uromastyx, or jewelled lacertas.

[Vicious_Fish]

You could probably keep a pair of Collard Lizards in something like that.

[varanio]

I'd have thought maybe something like V. storri or red ackies might work; I'm told yellows get approach 3 feet so maybe a big big for the trough...I'll defer to varanio though re: the monitors.

Some other things you could maybe try in there are the already mentioned BT skinks, uromastyx, or jewelled lacertas.

You could still keep any ackie in there 1.1 or 1.2 but if jason wants to keep any monitor species in there then the best approach is to enclose the top somehow so that humidity does not escape. If not then the other agamid or BTS suggestions would be a better fit.

[jason longboard]

hey you changed your avatar without making a thread for it,lol.Thanks V.Its nice to get ideas from you guys.They got some at a filthy shop here in town,i think the adult yellow was around 260 and the timors were around 185.The guy said they are ok humid or dry.Thats why i dont buy herps there anymore.Hes the one that left a special order hog island boa all the way on a heat pad and it bit itself to death before i could get their,also sold baby beardeds to him and if any dies they would be in their for days on end.List goes on,unfortunatly he has a big selection of herps at the moment and i hope those poor monitors find homes because they are in small tanks half on some old heat pad with no heat for the air temp.Its cold here and they are all piled up where the pad is.Ppl that go to his shop are not likely to aford these so god help them.

[Kioka]

The only thing I can see in there are some of those small tortoises.

I am not an advocate of keeping lizards in top-down enclosures like that since they adopt weird behaviours akin to watching for the terror from the sky.

[jason longboard]

interesting you bring that up,i always wondered that about my old dragons,you do kind of pop out of noplace but after they realized that i was a food provider they would run right to me as soon as i showed.Are moniters not that way i wonder.This isnt for sure yet though,just getting ideas.

[varanio]

The only thing I can see in there are some of those small tortoises.

I am not an advocate of keeping lizards in top-down enclosures like that since they adopt weird behaviours akin to watching for the terror from the sky.

And dont you think that the weird behavior of watching whats above is not natural? This isnt a behavior that is adapted, its a behavior that is embedded in them and has been for millions of years. (which is why they have survived this long) If they didnt have this behavior I dont think we would have any terrestrial lizards. We would have a bunch of fat, happy birds of prey.

[Kioka]

Alright, then how come varanids, or most lizards, in European-style cages don't have that same behaviour?

[davo]

Alright, then how come varanids, or most lizards, in European-style cages don't have that same behaviour?

because they have adapted not to do it I imagine? Take one outside and see what happens. They will always look out the way they know you can get in at them/they can see out at... no matter which way it is.

there's no way they aren't great catches for birds of prey.

[varanio]

Alright, then how come varanids, or most lizards, in European-style cages don't have that same behaviour?

Davo has it dead on. And I can take it a step further. Put a European still cage (which I have ) if you look at my pictures. And put it on the ground. Then walk over to the cage and see what the varanid(s) will do. There is a reason why these cages are done the way they are. They are done this way so the animal is viewed more (which is fine), because once the animal is at eye level they are more comfortable with being out and about in front of people. (this is specially true with W/C animals), but again it all goes back to what the animal has adapted to in the past few million years. Arboreal lizards they look down from the treetops terrestrial will look up for danger. An ackie is not as comfortable up in a tree, just like a prasinus will not be as comfortable on the ground. Its all in the way the animal has designed itself to cope with its enviornment. There is a reason why there are so many species, so many sizes, so many colors, so many patterns, and the list goes theyve all adapted to their niche.

[Kioka]

There is a reason why these cages are done the way they are. They are done this way so the animal is viewed more (which is fine), because once the animal is at eye level they are more comfortable with being out and about in front of people. (this is specially true with W/C animals)

:thumbsup: Then shouldn't the goal of everyone regarding captive care of animals be trying to make it less stressful for them as possible?

I hope you guys realized what I have just done. ;)

[davo]

it's gunna be just as stressful no matter what way you are peering in... they get used to you, or not. Having them out and about for us to see them is our deal, not theirs. It also depends if you are disturbing them all the time or not.

Was just pointing out that it is not a weird behaviour for most ground dwelling lizards and is in fact a definite natural behaviour, and instead captives have learned not to do it, so it's the other way around. Your feelings on how to keep them is fine, but it really makes no difference what so ever, you can keep your animals in a glass box, and as long as you have appropriate hides, it won't matter one bit.

When I am working with my snakes however, I prefer to do it at their level, as this makes them more comfortable, and I'm sure it will be the same for the other animals...

[CTU2fan]

I think I see where Kioka is coming from. While the flight response of an animal kept in a trough style/open top enclosure isn't unnatural it is likely to be stressful. Whereas a monitor kept in an open front enclosure sees people at eye level and is more likely to behave normally. Also I'm thinking that when put that way most of us would agree. I do think that depending on the monitor they're likely to lose the flight response as they grow to recognize their regular keeper. I've kept monitors (and tegus) that were so comfortable that flight would be the last thing on their mind, and if anything they'd jump up to get to the food they probably figure is coming...while the one V. salvator I've kept would probably never have been comfortable in an open top enclosure like that. Just depends on the animal.

[varanio]

:thumbsup: Then shouldn't the goal of everyone regarding captive care of animals be trying to make it less stressful for them as possible?

I hope you guys realized what I have just done. ;)

What did you just do?

[varanio]

I think I see where Kioka is coming from. While the flight response of an animal kept in a trough style/open top enclosure isn't unnatural it is likely to be stressful. Whereas a monitor kept in an open front enclosure sees people at eye level and is more likely to behave normally. Also I'm thinking that when put that way most of us would agree. I do think that depending on the monitor they're likely to lose the flight response as they grow to recognize their regular keeper. I've kept monitors (and tegus) that were so comfortable that flight would be the last thing on their mind, and if anything they'd jump up to get to the food they probably figure is coming...while the one V. salvator I've kept would probably never have been comfortable in an open top enclosure like that. Just depends on the animal.

And I think you bring up a point about what type of animal it is V salvator of course will never fit in one, but at the same time these troughs are very ideal with odatriad which is more of what I am trying to bring to attention. Fossorial lizards, not semi aquatic or arboreal lizards that grow larger than 3 foot.

[varanio]

:thumbsup: Then shouldn't the goal of everyone regarding captive care of animals be trying to make it less stressful for them as possible?

I hope you guys realized what I have just done. ;)

Yes and at the same time trying to study up on as much of their instinctive behaviors as possible since we dont know much about them.

[varanio]

Kioka here you go pal, maybe youll be a little more content with this modification if you want to look at your animals at eye level. This works for both the "european style that you mentioned, and the trough style that you dont like" the trough is there for them to dig around and do natural things, like hunt underground build burrows etc. And then they have a view of their surroundings only through the front. This will eliminate the "adaptation" of that weird behavior you describe and that you dont think is natural. Whats it called again ? Terror from the sky?

:thumbsup:

[jason longboard]

what the heck,do they fill in the gaps around the outsides of the tup somehow?

[varanio]

what the heck,do they fill in the gaps around the outsides of the tup somehow?

I dont understand jason? Gaps on top? What that is, is a skeleton which will then have FRP or plywood slabs cut to shape to fit around the design of the skeleton. Then it will be sealed with caulking (bio friendly) to fill in the little spaces to prevent humidity from escaping, substrate, etc etc.

Is that what you were asking about?

[jason longboard]

dang i should have spell checked,lol.The gaps around the TUB is what i meant,sorry.You know the corners but you say caulking that makes sense.

[varanio]

dang i should have spell checked,lol.The gaps around the TUB is what i meant,sorry.You know the corners but you say caulking that makes sense.

You would also cut out a piece FRP, plywood to go around the top of the trough oval shaped of course and that would eliminate the gaps there as well on the trough. This works against attempted escapes.

[Kioka]

I do a lot of baiting online. Just because they have to worry about it in the wild, it doesn't means it have to carry on in captivity if it does not interfere with their health. I say that because a lot, if not all, varanids do need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Although some of their main habitats are more terrestrial, animals do seem to be more lax if they have the option to see eye to eye or go above the keeper's head. That's my take on it.

Yes, I am aware of of the trough and full height vivarium, I was just thinking of the type of system, along with the tub system used with Bearded and geckos, that was used in the second post of the thread. ;)

By European, I should say it's German because of the wonky animal rights law they have in Germany.

[varanio]

I do a lot of baiting online. Just because they have to worry about it in the wild, it doesn't means it have to carry on in captivity if it does not interfere with their health. I say that because a lot, if not all, varanids do need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Although some of their main habitats are more terrestrial, animals do seem to be more lax if they have the option to see eye to eye or go above the keeper's head. That's my take on it.

Baiting? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what exactly are you baiting? The only one with a hook in their mouth here is you, I frankly dont understand your logic behind "why if they dont do it in the wild doesnt mean they have to carry it on in captivity" Thats an injustice to these animals, these animals are not meant to be domesticated.

You later then go on to say that they need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Isnt that part of what they do in the wild? So why should one behavior be forced away from their everyday life and not the other? Isnt that unfair to the animal, and you the keeper ? You only get to see the glass half full? How are you to fully understand why they do certain things they do?

Have you attempted to keep any varanid species in any of the two different methods? Seems as if youre going by what others state, and not really on your own experiences. I have raised and kept in both types and find that the trough is better for terrestrial animals having them look up as its a natural behavior, and having the arboreal enclosures for arboreal species where they are more accustomed to looking down, I try to mimic their enviornments to make sure they can display as many naturalistic behaviors as possible. This way its not so bad that theyre in a box for observation and captive understanding of behaviors.

These are generalities of course, we can have dialogue about semi aquatic arboreal and fossorial species if youd like, and how they would benefit from different types of enclosures. It just seems to me that people dont do enough for their animals in ways to understand their enviornments and needs, but rather just instill a one path mentality, this is the way its gonna be and thats the way it is; rather than i should research this enviornment and design the cage according to that.

Mating out in the open and the pic is taken from above? Look at the terrified looks on their faces as they go about their business ignoring me completely. They should be ashamed of themselves for going away from the norm. :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

<------- thats an arow pointing you toward the avatar

[Kioka]

Baiting? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what exactly are you baiting? The only one with a hook in their mouth here is you, I frankly dont understand your logic behind "why if they dont do it in the wild doesnt mean they have to carry it on in captivity" Thats an injustice to these animals, these animals are not meant to be domesticated.

Um, where the hell did I say that? I just said that minimizing stress is the (or should be) the am of every herpetoculturist on this planet. By baiting, I means I got you to confess that keeping them where they can see you can be less stressful for the animal.

You later then go on to say that they need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Isnt that part of what they do in the wild? So why should one behavior be forced away from their everyday life and not the other? Isnt that unfair to the animal, and you the keeper ? You only get to see the glass half full? How are you to fully understand why they do certain things they do?Are varanids the type of reptiles that don't adapt well or benefit from the utilitarian method that seemingly every gecko, snake or agamid breeder or keeper use?

Have you attempted to keep any varanid species in any of the two different methods? Seems as if youre going by what others state, and not really on your own experiences. I have raised and kept in both types and find that the trough is better for terrestrial animals having them look up as its a natural behavior, and having the arboreal enclosures for arboreal species where they are more accustomed to looking down, I try to mimic their enviornments to make sure they can display as many naturalistic behaviors as possible. This way its not so bad that theyre in a box for observation and captive understanding of behaviors.No, but I do plan to keep small monitors in a 4'x8'x8' (or 10' if the ceiling allows for it) cage with a 2'-3' deep substrate with UV. I am in the process of finding a good soil that can hold tunnels. That way the animal can have a choice of being up top, being at midlevel, staying on the ground or being underground. Seriously, we are taking an animal that would normally have hundreds of hectares of hunting territory with the highest recorded repitilean metabolism that even rival birds and small mammals with a reptuation for being the most intelligent of all the ectothermic animals into a small box only to be fed periodically at their doorstep.

I am following the advices of a few people like Sam Sweet, crocdoc and a local named Warren along with a few German keepers.

Am I overdoing it? Maybe from a North American minimalist utilitarian perception, but you know Europeans are having more success propagating Indo-Pacific and African varanids, which are clades that very few American hobbyists have success with.

[varanio]

Kioka;1477797;]Um, where the hell did I say that? I just said that minimizing stress is the (or should be) the am of every herpetoculturist on this planet. By baiting, I means I got you to confess that keeping them where they can see you can be less stressful for the animal.

Confessing and agreeing are two different things here. I dont make these things up, they are personal observations.

Are varanids the type of reptiles that don't adapt well or benefit from the utilitarian method that seemingly every gecko, snake or agamid breeder or keeper use?

Utalitarian hmmmm so whats this useful way of keeping them then? What you mentioned before? Those setups now all of a sudden apply to geckos and agamids? Hardly...........
No, but I do plan to keep small monitors in a 4'x8'x8' (or 10' if the ceiling allows for it) cage with a 2'-3' deep substrate with UV. I am in the process of finding a good soil that can hold tunnels. That way the animal can have a choice of being up top, being at midlevel, staying on the ground or being underground. Seriously, we are taking an animal that would normally have hundreds of hectares of hunting territory with the highest recorded repitilean metabolism that even rival birds and small mammals with a reptuation for being the most intelligent of all the ectothermic animals into a small box only to be fed periodically at their doorstep.

From this I really got nothing actually my head started spinning because I didnt know what the point was you were trying to make.

I am following the advices of a few people like Sam Sweet, crocdoc and a local named Warren along with a few German keepers.

These names are very revelant in the herping community and I admire them both quite a bit, I have seen Sam's setups and I correspond with him from time to time, Dave (croc doc ) as well. What you fail to see is that I never disagreed with you as to what was the right or wrong way of keeping them which enclosure was right or wrong. I am arguing the fact that you for some preconceived reason think that (im gonna keep my eyes on the sky behavior) is an adaptation that is formulated by these animals in captivity and its not inherent in wild animals. :screwy:
American minimalist utalitarian hu? So now we are utalitarians, and up above the europeans are utalitarians with their gecko and agamid breeding? Your throwing large words around like your in a spelling bee, just like your tackling a complex subject without any hands on experience in the matter, your baiting a fish thats too big for your line, go grab a 5lb test and bait for some guppies. Thats where you belong, quit trying to fill shoes you cant fit by throwing well respected peoples names on here and claiming their long hard work as yours.

Am I overdoing it? Maybe from a North American minimalist utilitarian perception, but you know Europeans are having more success propagating Indo-Pacific and African varanids, which are clades that very few American hobbyists have success with.

By the way buddy Europeans arent the only one breeding them, check the classifieds see whos breeding what itll be a nice eye opener for you.

[Kioka]

What I means is the old newspaper and paper towel setup with a hide or two and a possible basking lamp or heat pad. Is that not what the standard utilitarian method is? Trying to keep thing sterilize as possible? Varanids just simply don't benefit from being kept on paper towel or newspaper with a couple of hides thrown in.

With Sam, Dave (crocdoc), et cetera: you said I was going by what other people state. or experienced. I never said you were wrong. I correspond with them by e-mails, and I just go by their suggestions and ideology. Where did I even claim their works as mine?

Read it at face value, don't try to read between the line. With the second paragraph, I was just legitimizing my rationale behind the design for big cage for a terrestrial monitor.

God you are reading into this too much.

Edit: I never said it was unnatural, just saying it is weird. Since when weird is akin to unnatural? I think pancake tortoises' shells are weird; I think Indigo's waste spraying are weird. Are they unnatural? No. However I still don't see the point in using the method in the second post suggested unless you are a breeder; if you are just a simple hobbyist, then why keep them that way?

And I am still looking for captive-bred Mangrove Monitors and Savannahs...

[Gourami Swami]

guys, stop bickering. Keep this civil. Perhaps even break thie last page or so into a new topic, like davo did with the "ethics of keeping animals/petco ball pythons" thread.

[large_cichlids]

WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?:)

[davo]

guys, stop bickering. Keep this civil. Perhaps even break thie last page or so into a new topic, like davo did with the "ethics of keeping animals/petco ball pythons" thread.
nah no need unless the OP wants to... it's all about using the troughs as caging like he intends to, so...

[varanio]

What I means is the old newspaper and paper towel setup with a hide or two and a possible basking lamp or heat pad. Is that not what the standard utilitarian method is? Trying to keep thing sterilize as possible? Varanids just simply don't benefit from being kept on paper towel or newspaper with a couple of hides thrown in.

With Sam, Dave (crocdoc), et cetera: you said I was going by what other people state. or experienced. I never said you were wrong. Where did I even claim their works as mine?

Read it at face value, don't try to read between the line. With the second paragraph, I was just legitimizing my rationale behind the design for big cage for a terrestrial monitor.

God you are reading into this too much.


How is talking about utalitarianism and using it against americans not a reason to read into it so much? Youre throwing these farces around and using them as typical stereotype that every hobbyist is a utalitarian. I will read into it because when you speak in generalities you are speaking of me. And from my experience and what I have contributed to this forum and others Id think youd have a little more common sense and choose your words more carefully when youd engage in dialogue with me.

I applaud your rationale, and thats really everyones rationale when they start, unfortunatley it doesnt become a reality for most for XYZ reasons.

In the earlier parts of this thread you used the information given to you by others and used it as your own by taking ownership of comments they made. I know that because I have spoken to Sam and Dave and we talk about it everytime we speak. I am not going to go back and knit pick it as im not the one who stated them, so its not my responsibility to duplicate it for you to see. Sam is an american by the way he must be a utalitarian, ill make sure he knows that since you listen to his advice all so much!

The whole paper towel analogy simply doesnt apply to this dialogue and you know it, dont use the agamid and gecko examples as a scapegoat for your lack of research on the subject we are talking about sufisticated ways to keep our animals where they can breed and fulfill life events and then you bring this rubbish in as a justification? Thats just not proper debate tactics.

I am not mad at you Kioka, I am just concerned about your way of thinking, as to how you think one way is better than any other way, if the animal is breeding in front of us and its a look above enclosure, and the eggs hatch and they are fulfilling life events and displaying proper behaviors why is this bad? An eye level enclosure could be just as effective or damning for them as well, you can get no eggs no breeding no behaviors, they could hide all day and never come and then what? How would you measure the success of that cage?

I underlined the whole topic of my reasoning and the disagreement, but you opened a whole other can of worms with some of your comments pal.

[varanio]

"Alright, then how come varanids, or most lizards, in European-style cages don't have that same behaviour?"

The formulation of this sentence suggests that its unnatural because european cage style monitor keepers arent seeing these behaviors. The behavior is forced out by taking a blank white wall and throwing it at them to stare at, I wouldnt be worried either about the "terrors from above", but youre taking a natural behavior away from them, which is all in all the focal point of the discussion which got diverged by other things said, so to spin this back on topic somewhat. I hope you understood the above.

[Kioka]

Not a problem. I am way too lost in the topic to even try and fix what I said and what I originally meant, but it just kept getting worse and worse. I don't see what is wrong with my statements, yet I get the feeling people get a different message out of them.

I didn't means to offend anyone, and usually my choice of words are taken at face value in my mind, and I don't take implied statements and definitions into consideration. I let my scientific reading comprehension get in the way of real world reading comprehension.

In hindsight, I see how my posts could be read the way they were read, and I apologize for that.

Edit: Hope you read this edit. This is why I hate discussing online, even on MSN. One needs to consider every single possible way a person may interpret a statement when dealing with posts online, and hope the message get across. At least in real life, one can explain properly and correcting oneself before the discussion turn into a big mess.

[jason longboard]

i have not yet read the entire last several long post since my eyes are burning from being at the barns and nobles all night,well after the steakhouse and a few brews.So,as far as me caring if it goes this deep,hell,im just happy ppl are caring so much about the herp world and are keeping the site active.You guys are not name calling yet so im very cool with this discussion.Pleas all just remember that we are working together to resolve these topics and if you are so dead set on your ideas based on what youve expereinced that you will at least consider the other ppls ideas.If you still dont agree then at least agree on that.These dont need to be settled over nite,lol.We can learn alot from threads like this and i enjoy it as long as we remember that we may actualy like the ppl we are arguing with,lol.Thank you guys posting and anyone else who remembers what the topic was,jk,feel free to post.:)

[jason longboard]

dont get me wrong here,i think this is still very much on topic,just deeper.its cool though.i think im the only one awake know,lol.