Cichlid Tank - never clean

[trogdor1980]

Hi,

I've got a 75g with an oscar, GT, sevrum, and a few small cichlids (small convict, parrot) and an yellow eel tail cat.

Using a gravel bottom, a 900 litre/hour canister filter, and a UV steriliser.

Even after a big gravel vac, and changing 60% of the water, I can never get rid of a greenish tinge. If I look from one end of the tank to the other (longways) it is difficult to see the other end.

The fish are all happy and active, but I would like a 'clearer' tank.

Any ideas? Would going bare bottom with the logs and rocks on the glass with no gravel help?

BTW, I'm getting a 240g to move these fish into in the next month, but would like to know what I'm doing wrong. Especially because I dont want a large 'murky' tank!

How do I get crystal clear water?

Thanks!

[rayman45]

how many watts are your lights
my 20L has to much light on it and i gat the same ****

[WckedMidas]

dude chill with the watter changes. cut the lights off for a couple days on the tank. Let it finish its cycle if you dont cut off the lights it will never stop . Same with the watter changes you feed the algea bloom thats growing in the watter every time you do a change on the tank. One of the causes could be direct sunlight on the tank. Or even to much light from your light strips. I dont no if it in front a window or what.

How long has it been set up and running

[trogdor1980]

Thanks guys!

Its been up and running for about 8 months now.

The lights are actually only on for about 3-4 hours a day, in the evenings when we are home. Not sure how many watts they are.

I have noticed the one or two times I have changed the pads in the cannister, underneath the bottom most pad there is a few inches of green sludge - is that diluting back into the water and causing this?

[trogdor1980]

Forgot - by the way - its pretty far from the window - maybe 6 - 8 metres?

[rayman45]

listen
stuff your fish

then turn the lights off

cover the tank with dark towels,sheets etc. so no light gets in

3 days of no light, that should kill all the algea

[decoy]

It,s as simple as this you are doing WHY to big of water changes !!!!! Dure 10 to 20% about 2 to 3 times a month....your water is cloudy because you are taking out to much need bacteria....

Regards,
decoy

[PeacockBass]

It,s as simple as this you are doing WHY to big of water changes !!!!! Dure 10 to 20% about 2 to 3 times a month....your water is cloudy because you are taking out to much need bacteria....

Regards,
decoy


100% Incorrect.

10-20% is a waste of time. You should be doing 50% a week or more.

Unless your tapwater has high Nitrates and Phosphates there is no problem and the ONLY good way of curing this problem is doing massive water changes.

How lond has it been since you have changed the UV bulb?

Do you have a phosphate test kit? How about a nitrate Kit?


What is the temp of your water?

WHen you clean your filters, what do you do?

How often are you changing the water? How often are you gravelvacing?



BTW- Please disregaurd all the above posts. They are all incorrect, except for the recomendation to cover the tank up completely.

[Phtstrat]

I know that you said you've done a 60% water change and that didn't work. My question is how many times a month do you change the water and how much of a percentage on average.

Cleaning your gravel or doing water changes should not really hurt the amount of bacteria in your tank, considering most of them reside in the media of the filter.

My guess: nitrAte problem, get your water tested so we can be sure

[trogdor1980]

Hi all, thanks for all the advice & interest.

Well, I vacuum the gravel at least once a week. I can get fill a 20 - 30 liter bucket with black or very, very dark brown water from the entire gravel vac operation. So basically the gravel gets filthy every week, and I completely clean it every week (on weekend).

Aside from that, I take several more of these big buckets out after gravel vacuuming (usually half the tank worth - but if sometimes more if its really dirty). I would never go more than 60%ish as I leave the fish in there and they have to be able to swim on the bottom!

I keep the water at about 25 - 26 degrees celcius (no idea in F). I clean the filter out every three or so months. Basically disconnect it, pull out all the sponge type media and replace it, set aside the ceramic bacteria things so the bacteria doesnt get killed off, and pour out the copious amounts of dark green sludge trapped at the bottom. I have not done this for a few months. There is always so much sludge trapped under the bottom most filter pad.

The UV bulb is about 6 months old (how often do I need to change this?) I figured 12 months??

I dont have a test kit for nitrate or phosphorous. I'll buy one this weekend if you guys feel that it would help. Whats a good & bad reading?

BTW, can somebody explain how nitrate causes algae. Would one of those external sump things with plants in it help?

Thanks again! Your time & help is most appreciated :)

[piranha45]

I do 90% water changes every week, the bigger fish have a little trouble staying upright for 5 minutes before the water comes back in. I'd hardly call that cruel treatment

nitrate is the food source of aquatic plants. beyond that, i dont know how it works. the plants-in-sump seems sorta reasonable, but hopefully someone with some more knowledge could tell us if that actually works or not.

[trogdor1980]

Thanks Piranha45! Sounds good...

BTW, how big is your tank & whats the bioload & filtration. If you look lengthwise down it can you clearly see through it?

[piranha45]

my tank is kept inside in a fairly dark room, not exposed to any sunlight or high-powered lighting whatsoever, so algae is almost nonexistent on it; very clear. perhaps once every couple of months ill have a little brown algae to scrape off.

my tank is visible by checking Personal Gallery http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/20

its a 200g stocked with about 25 different fish ranging from 3" to 8" in length. also have a 55g, no pics of it tho

[trogdor1980]

Hey Pirhana, thats a cool tank!

I was meaning to ask - the substrate looks like sand. How do you find sand as opposed to gravel for showing up dirt, and retaining dirt? What size sand do you use?

I want sand for my new tank (imo looks way better) but wanted some opinions before ordering bags upon bags of the stuff!

Any advice on this?

Thanks agaiN!

[piranha45]

fish crap rests on top of the sand. If there's no/few decorations for the water current (that which is created by the filtration) to make the crap collect around, it'll be very visible. its very easy to suck up though; no thorough digging like you'd have to do with gravel.

if you have a ton of decorations, like myself, you can hardly ever vacuum the sand at all and still not notice the waste.

[sleepyflight]

Ok, not that I'm disagreeing but 90% changes every week??????? Damn!!!! I'll just say whats happening in my many tanks.... I've had succesful breeding in each (I love bying by the pair) and for the most part I've been able to transfer to any tank before the fry are free swimming and have had no issues. I pretty much refill once a week and do a 25 to 50% water change a month or sometimes closer to 3 weeks. If fry to well and colors are good and nothing looks dingy it can't be so bad. I do keep a couple inches of gravel on the bottom (2-4) so maybe lotta gravel helps. Anyways, fish waste through the cycle process will contribute to algea....I've always cut down on the feed a bit, lessen light time(in your case I say you have too little already) and hit it with some Algea Fix. It has never wacked the live plants I've kept as long as used in correct dosage(if you have live plants). Not sure what huge and many water changes will do for algea but has never made a difference either way. Algea is a type of plant from my knowledge that large water changes probably won't help anyways simply because you have to kill the bloom or it will continue and contaminate all that freshly changed water in a day or so anyways. And I thought UV ster. were supposed to help with this sort of thing.

[piranha45]

Changing 90% of your water is an extremely difficult, challenging endeavour; you must leave the siphon in the tank for 5-30 minutes longer than normal.

[WckedMidas]

100% Incorrect.




BTW- Please disregaurd all the above posts. They are all incorrect, except for the recomendation to cover the tank up completely.


Now how can you make a statement or coment like that?
Its proven to much light will cause floating algea blooms for one. Second if he does have a floating algea bloom . Doing mad watter changes just feeds the problem. And only prolongs it from clearing up.

[PeacockBass]

Now how can you make a statement or coment like that?
Its proven to much light will cause floating algea blooms for one. Second if he does have a floating algea bloom . Doing mad watter changes just feeds the problem. And only prolongs it from clearing up.


Oh? Please, explain to me exactly what happens.

How does a water change FEED the problem? WHAT is FEEDING the algae? WHAT is it EATING thats in the "new" water? HOW is it prolonging the problem? Oh? Oh?

Please, elaborate.

[buddah101]

dude chill with the watter changes. cut the lights off for a couple days on the tank. Let it finish its cycle if you dont cut off the lights it will never stop . Same with the watter changes you feed the algea bloom thats growing in the watter every time you do a change on the tank. One of the causes could be direct sunlight on the tank. Or even to much light from your light strips. I dont no if it in front a window or what.

How long has it been set up and running
Agreed. You have an algae bloom. turn off your lights for a few days.

[slapper]

test your tap water for nitrates, also you mentioned the green sludge in your canister. How often do you clean it? Your uv clarifier doesnt work for s+++. Algae should never be a problem with uv. Does it have a glass sleeve around the bulb? Do you clean it?

[PeacockBass]

test your tap water for nitrates, also you mentioned the green sludge in your canister. How often do you clean it? Your uv clarifier doesnt work for s+++. Algae should never be a problem with uv. Does it have a glass sleeve around the bulb? Do you clean it?


You do realize his bulb is over 6 months old.

He needs to change his bulb. BUT THATS NOT THE POINT. a UV only covers UP the problem, It does not fix it.

[d20monsteroscar20]

I dont have a algea problem on my cichlid tank, its perfect. the only prob is that it might beging to be small for my oscars. However my other community tanks with the platies, Mollies and other freshwater fishes is hell. I did whatever with that tank. put algea destroyer in the tank and it still ugly. I havent being turn the light on for like 3 weeks now but its not much of a change. The plants that once longed beautiful now they all destroyed with algeas and I just dont know what to do wtih my 29 gallon tank.

[PeacockBass]

Now how can you make a statement or coment like that?
Its proven to much light will cause floating algea blooms for one. Second if he does have a floating algea bloom . Doing mad watter changes just feeds the problem. And only prolongs it from clearing up.

Do not challenge me then walk away.

Post up your information please.

[PeacockBass]

waiting.

[WckedMidas]

waiting.
its like this everytime i have had this problem. I freaked out lost my mind and started doin mad watter changes like you and a couple others sugested. I thought yeah do the same thing. So i did. was doin 40 percent watter changes every day . Cleared watter up to like you said. Then the watter would start turning green again. and it got greener and greener untill you couldnt see **** in the back. Now i have tried doing the watter changes 40 percent every other day for a month straight. thinking that would get rid of the problem. nope it came right back. When i stoped doing all the watter changes the tank started clearing up after a week with no watterchanges. i dont no why dont no how. but it did. I also removed one of the lights i had on the tank. I didnt cover the tank completely . i just removed one light. I beleve the floating algea was liveing anf thriveing off micro orginaizims. in the fresh watter. And when i stoped giveing fresh watter to the free floating alge that made my tank look like mountan dew.The algea atarted dieing off.

[rollerboy244]

how a uv sterilizer is used-should be looked at wattage and flow rate -for best results,a smaller tank needs 12 watts or more ,to be effective the rate should be slow for better exposure as it passes the bulb--if the flow rate of the canister filter is say 200-300 gph that too fast for the uv to do it's job from what i have read---so splitting the flow on the out put side is recommended or going to a higher wattage bulb lets say 36 watts.In my 66 gallon which is still cycling,i have one of my canister filters an xp2 hooked up with a coralife 18 watt uv split on the output side so the rate going through the uv is about 150 gph.I just get algae on surfaces,no bacterial blooms---my nitrates are almost to zero,water is crystal clear.
Water changes would only effect algae if it were high in phostates nitrites nitrates iron and such.I would think the benefits of large water changes would largely outweigh the negative.But i guess they say algae problems are sometimes a product of poor maintenance.But testing your water should be done to see if chemical treatment might work---phoshate removers for example.
I personally have to research the light aspect as i like to see my fish when i wake up and when i go to bed---i am cleaning green algae from the glasss daily-water is crystal clear---there's the patience level too it's only been running for 7 weeks---with blue gouramis,and three weeks with my leichardti arowana--which has grown an inch in that time

[CentralMayhem]

every other day for about a two weeks

[CentralMayhem]

****, i had a whole article typed on the subject and i guess it was too long. so ill start again. I have my 90g cichlid tank. 1-7" fh, 1-f1 labiatus at 4", 1 female festae 3" and 1 dovii 3". I feed two to three times daily with nls pellets and freeze dried krill. occasionally i throw in earthworms or crawdads for some fun live food. I have 4-96w pc flourescents, and its right next to a window recieving 2 to 3 hours of good sunlight most of the year. My water is crystal clear, and i do 50 to 90% water changes weekly. I am with peacock. the only way you can do too big of a water change is if your fish arent used to it, causing it to shock them and bring on stress from too drastic of a change. most of the time that would mean your tank is too dirty, but your fish adapted to the environment over time, thinking that you are doing a favor by thoroughly cleaning the tank, you remove all the old dirty waste and throw in nice clean fresh water and shock the fish because the change happened to quick and they didnt have the time to adjust. if on the other hand once your tank is cycled you begin performing large scale REGULAR water changes you wouldnt have the problem as the fish would adapt to what was happening in their environment. For your algae bloom, you definitely have way too much nitrates in your water. Not doing big enough REGULAR partial water changes.

[CentralMayhem]

I would recommend starting a 50% water change every 3 days until the bloom is gone. at that point i would continue to do 50 to 90% weekly. you only need enough bacteria in your tank to convert the ammonia and nitrite to nitrates. if you do regular partial water changes you should never have a big enough accumulation of toxins that doing a water change would affect your system . you could vaccum half the tanks gravel one week and do the other side the next week. water changes are the key to keeping fish. the more you do the happier and healthier your fish are gonna be. cut back a little on the feeding and step up the water changes or continue to feed as you do, just do much larger more frequent changes and you should solve the problem. if it doesnt the problem would be your tap water and that will require obtaining water from a different source that is void of nitrates. LET THERE BE LIGHT. algae happens period, we just have to control it. Light isnt the problem, its the dirty water.

[LBC]

Oh? Please, explain to me exactly what happens.

How does a water change FEED the problem? WHAT is FEEDING the algae? WHAT is it EATING thats in the "new" water? HOW is it prolonging the problem? Oh? Oh?

Please, elaborate.


If his tap water has any amounts of phosphates then he would be feeding the problem. With green water I would do a black out for a couple of days, not turn on any lighting and keep feeding to a minimum. I would check my tap water for nitrates and phosphates and to get real technical I would keep my nitrates to 10ppm and my phosphates to under 1ppm or less. A 10:1 ratio keeps algae blooms at bay. If you have barely any nitrates and phosphates in your tap water then change the water when it reaches 15 ppm nitrates and learn how long it takes to get to that value. If it takes 2 days, then do water changes every 2 days, if it takes 3 weeks then do water changes every three weeks.

The main problem is the balance between your light levels and high nutrients in the water. Do not use the algae fix potions you can buy at the store...

[Richie]

Algae needs nutrients and light to grow.
Where do nutrients come from in an aquarium - food, fish poop and contaminated water from an external source.
Find the source, you are either feeding too much, your filters are inadequate or your tapwater needs to be treated first.

Covering your tank, millions of water changes, etc, etc, are only temporary measures which don't help.

[dmarinko]

maybe its a piece of drift wood. My tank has an orange tinit from the side, too.

[katycichlid]

On the orange tint post right above, some real pro's in Houston (not me) say put Kent Organic Adsorption Resin in the Eheims....especially on the wood issue. Like someone said above go big time water changes if the fish can handle it. Watch overfeeding especially freeze dried krill--the fish love it but it tints the water badly. Keep the light off.

[sour_girl]

What size are your fish? Full grown you will be a tad overstocked.... and it honestly sounds like some overfeeding is going on... can dirty up the water way fast...

[Tongue33]

75 g... My emperor 400 cleared up my green water.. Plus i had to up the water changes as i had allot of waste due to My oscar . Half the food that goes in to his mouth as most Oscars comes right back out of the gills. Causing rott... hense feeding into green water..

I just had an bloom of cloudiness.. Not Greeness.. Cloudiness and i let it cycle out. I've also heard of using a Diatom filter they are spendy but it takes the cloud away first time..

I might add a part where my water filters through gravel then sand as this will catch the cloud particals. And vuala clear water..

Sounds like , i have to agree with food and crap concetration if the tank is already cycled. Also agree with sour girl a tad over stocked with big messy eaters and heavy waste machines fish :) I have those same fish and i had to do heavy water changes to clear up the green and then I figured out my problem was the food, as suggested above.. I started deleting things til i found it. and it stopped when i stopped over feeding. Not feeding less times per day, just less food.

I'm not saying your fish, but this was my problem at one point for almost a year i went livce only and once a week. and my water was clear clear clear and my fish were healthy.

I apologise for the long winded answer but i had to as to hopefully not feed the fire that is burning in this thread.. Hope i was of help..

[SphericalCube]

Ok, here's the absolute best advice I can give you. . .

1. Change only 20-30% of the water each time. . . too much is only killing off bacteria and feeding the algae.
2. Vacuum only 1/3 of the tank each time you vacuum. All that brown stuff you're pulling out is poop. . . that poop is filled with useful bacteria. . . Bacteria competes with algae for food. . .
3. Stuff your fish like Rayman said and turn out the lights for 3 days along with covering the tank completely so that NO LIGHT gets in. Algae could grow off an L.E.D. from a clock radio practically. If it's not gone then turn on the lights to feed your fish again then repeat process.
4. Anacharis, hornwort, and water sprite are all hardy floating plants that cichlids won't tear up that will also compete with the Algae and steal food from it. The more good plants in there. . . the less the bad plants (algae) have to feed on.
5. Turn off your UV sterilizer unless you can set it to VERY low flow so that all the water flowing through it is sterilized enough to kill the algae. Otherwise turn it off b/c it's only going to feed it.

JMHO
--Jimmy

[Opiate]

apart from the obvious, get a nice big powerful powerhead and get piping that will fit onto the Powerhead, drill holes all thru it then put the pipe in a sponge...works a treat!

[DeLgAdO]

nitrate is the food source of aquatic plants. beyond that, i dont know how it works. the plants-in-sump seems sorta reasonable, but hopefully someone with some more knowledge could tell us if that actually works or not.

*buzzer*

im sorry that is incorrect :D

its the ammonium that the plants utilize not the nitrate.

[DeLgAdO]

Covering your tank, millions of water changes, etc, etc, are only temporary measures which don't help.

waterchanges ARE the key!!!

yes covering your tank doesnt help, yes, right on that part, when the algae dies, it decomposes creating more organics for new algae to process once you turn the lights back on.

and if you say " ill do a water change before i turn the lgiht back on"

well then that leads us back to the fact that you needed to do more water changes from the start......

[DeLgAdO]

Ok, here's the absolute best advice I can give you. . .

1. Change only 20-30% of the water each time. . . too much is only killing off bacteria and feeding the algae.
2. Vacuum only 1/3 of the tank each time you vacuum. All that brown stuff you're pulling out is poop. . . that poop is filled with useful bacteria. . . Bacteria competes with algae for food. . .
3. Stuff your fish like Rayman said and turn out the lights for 3 days along with covering the tank completely so that NO LIGHT gets in. Algae could grow off an L.E.D. from a clock radio practically. If it's not gone then turn on the lights to feed your fish again then repeat process.
4. Anacharis, hornwort, and water sprite are all hardy floating plants that cichlids won't tear up that will also compete with the Algae and steal food from it. The more good plants in there. . . the less the bad plants (algae) have to feed on.
5. Turn off your UV sterilizer unless you can set it to VERY low flow so that all the water flowing through it is sterilized enough to kill the algae. Otherwise turn it off b/c it's only going to feed it.

JMHO
--Jimmy

WHERE DID YOU GET ALL THAT FROM?????

[SphericalCube]

WHERE DID YOU GET ALL THAT FROM?????

From the place where correct advice comes from. . . where does yours come from? :grinyes:

[SphericalCube]

Just so everyone is clear. . . I know I'm f'ing with a member with tons of posts and quite likely a lot of good advice. . . . I just can't help it in my inebriated condition. . . and that advice has worked well for me so I still stand by it.

--Jimmy

[Gee]

Large WC's shouldn't affect your BB, it lives in the filter and substrate.

Does anyone have a microscope, can you test this theory?:ROFL:

[DeLgAdO]

peacockbass pretty much nailed it

so it should end here.........

[Fry]

might be something hidden rotting in your tank or filter

[Fry]

*buzzer*

im sorry that is incorrect :D

its the ammonium that the plants utilize not the nitrate.

you're wrong del

according to this article, plants utilize both ammonia and nitrate, algae utilizes nitrate

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ciclo.php