New cichlid help and info please.....

[Jay R.]

Okay, just finished with my first cichlid tank. wanted some cheap colorful ones to cycle my tank with. bought some realtivly inexpensive ones out of the "assorted african cichlid" tank. my reaseach leads me to beleive these are "Lake Malawi" cichlids. anyone have any advice on keeping them. been keeping tropical for years these are a little new to me so im just throwing this out there. I want to post some pic's soon. I've collected tanks and equipment for a while and have ended up with some fnunky stuff. so i made a "Planet Mars" tank, and set these guys up in it.

[Kutty]

Yeah, they're from Lake Malawi in East Africa and therefore require hard alkaline water with a pH of 8.5. They also need LOTS of rock piles otherwise they will beat the crap out of each other and you will certainly end up with some dead fishes. To buffer the water, use crushed coral and coral sand as a substrate. If that is not done, your pH will drop dangerously low gradually, due to metabolic by-products such as fish wastes and uneaten food. All this cause pH levels to fall.

[Jay R.]

okay, sound like my tap water will be good for them, i have to drop the PH for my tropicals. this raises another question..... time for a new thread!!!!

[piranha45]

Don't mess with your pH, ever. Unless it drops to 5 or something. lol.

read this
http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?showtopic=67979

and take it to heart because 2 professional ichthyologists answered it.

Moral of the thread? pH is vastly overrated. Keep your pH the same as your tapwater and you will save both yourself and your fish a great deal of stress and trouble.

Feed your malawi cichlids whatever you feed your other fish; pellets worms whatever.


here's a good site for ID'ing african cichlids, if you care to do so:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/species_profiles.php

[sephir420]

my tank is mostly tanganikan but i do have a d. compresicep which is malawi.

they get along just fine. i do have plenty of hiding places for the smaller fish. it is a happy little tank :hearts:

[Jay R.]

site isn't comming up. why no mess with the PH? once i have the tank set every thing stays in perameters. my tap water is somewhere around 8.4 usually. the tropicals are "supposed " to have 7.6, your saying it ain't such a big deal? didn't think it was for survival. never lost a fish to wrong PH, but they says theres a difference between surviving and thriving, I always thout things like that was where the difference is made. I try to keep everything right but i don't stress over it.

[Jay R.]

and i checked that site, they say it's quite difficault to ID "assorted Cichlids"

[Kutty]

Many Lake Malawi cichlids eat aufwuchs (algae), and they get dropsy (Malawi Bloat) easily from a high-protein diet, so avoid feeding meaty food like worms, prawns and high-protein pellets. Give them vegetable pellets/flake and some peas and lettuce; your cichlids will love you for it. BTW, dropsy is extremely difficult to treat, if not impossible. I'm sure you don't want to lose any fish, so heed my advice.

[Kutty]

piranha45, are you saying that pH is inimportant? A fish living in soft acidic water in the wild will most probably die if put in hard alkaline water. Malawi cichlids do REQUIRE hard alkaline water. And, as I mentioned earlier, many Malawi cichlids graze algae from rocks; too much protein will give them dropsy and inevitably, death. If you don't have good advice, don't post. And stop giving others wrong information. If a newbie who has just bought some Malawi cichlids he/she will think 'Since he says feed them the same food as my other fish, and my other fish eat feeders and earthworms and the like, I shall feed them those!'. When his/her cichlids die, you will probably be held responsible. Don't say things you are not sure of, please.

[Jay R.]

i think he's saying its not an exacting spec like the other parameters, amonia, nitrites and nitrates. and you can do more harm than good if you try to hard to get it right. and could stress the fish out in the process. thats all it sounds like to me.

[Kutty]

Yes, if you do it wrongly, adjusting the pH can be an extremely stressful thing to fish. But if your fish needs soft acid water and your tap water is hard and alkaline, you will need to soften and lower it. I'm not encouraging you to do anything to the pH of the water, I'm just trying to tell piranha45 that pH IS important.

[piranha45]

both sites I linked to are coming up perfectly fine for me. Read the hard evidence before you go making baseless claims.

[Jay R.]

i think the basic point is, it's not important enough to stress over but it's too important to ignore. sound good ?

[Jay R.]

ah found out why, im not a member of pirahna fury board. i thought i already checked the site you sent but i didn't man thats a big list to search. I'll just keep it simple. in the mean time. i have 2 different blue ones and arange one, and a black and green one! :) man these little buggers have some personality. now i see why everyone likes them so much! :headbang2

[piranha45]

Keeping and breeding healthy ichthyologist-approved Tanganyikan cichlids in pH 7.1 is clearly a quality practice. Don't mess with your tapwater's pH; that's the pH the fish were kept in at the LFS, and it's the pH the fish are thereby accustomed to. The only thing required of pH is that it be kept steady.

Someone get KUTTY off his high horse, the darned fool is going to ride into the sunset; fry himself to a crisp.

[Jay R.]

the funny thing is, years ago when i had no clue what i was doing, my PH would drop like a rock, and i would suffer violent amonia spikes. now that i have it figured out my PH rarely changes. to be honest i used to think they LFS told to you needed an inch of gravel just to sell you more gravel. i always got enough just to cover the bottom. they never explained a biofilter either. they said you have to let the tank "settle" for a wekk then put 3 fish in and when they died get three more. then you tank was cycled. cause the dead fish took stuff out of the water that killed them. i thought this was silly but i didn't know any better

[piranha45]

I might also add that very few (close to nil) people on the various forums I frequent (myself included) have had diet-related disease issues with african mbuna, despite the rumor to the contrary. I feed all my cichlids 45% protein pellets, and they all (mbuna included) get live guppies and ghost shrimp on a somewhat regular basis. I've read plenty of accounts in which other keepers feed their mbuna similar diets, such as bloodworms and the like. I can count the number of times I've read "HELP! MY MBUNA HAS BLOAT!" over the past 2 years of my fish-forum going on one hand, with 2-3 fingers removed.

I invite the all-knowing all-mighty KUTTY over to El Paso where he can examine my mbuna and tell me they are all unhealthy disease-ridden quagmires (which they are not).

KUTTY I know it may be pretty tough for you to accept this, but you don't know everything, especially in regards to this topic. And don't distort my argument regarding pH, please. I made an inquiry with the use of a statement on a thread, and I let the ichthyologists take it from there.


The only african cichlid species that require a monitored diet, to my knowledge and experience, are Tanganyikan Tropheus species.

[Jay R.]

okay my fish are deffinatly in the Pseudotropheus class, i've picked out which colors they match to a tee, but i don';t think thats as important as the familiy

[Jay R.]

and on that nopte of feeding, i decided when i bought them to buy "cichlid flake" food from the shelf

[piranha45]

flakes will be suitable for the 1-3" length range, but thereafter I think they will find small pellets easier to manage....

they love zucchini btw. Get something to anchor it down with (screws/nails, rock+rubberband, etc.) and cut it lengthwise into two pieces. Can make your water all ugly and cloudy if you leave it in the tank for more than 3 days or so, tho. They can also get rather territorial about it, you might find it easier to cut it width-wise into multiple smaller pieces spaced apart from one another in the tank, so that more than one or two fish can eat at a time.

[Kutty]

piranha45, I don't see Phatboy posting anything in this thread. Please don't malign others.

[GTS]

piranha45, I don't see Phatboy posting anything in this thread. Please don't malign others.


If phatboy has not posted in this thread and yet p45 keeps refering to him then it means phatboy must have sent him a private message..

[Jay R.]

I'll try those really tacky lettace clips.

and as for fatboy, P45 probably saw the similar fish in the avitar.

[piranha45]

DAMN BICHIRS! I'll edit out phatboy and put kutty.

er damn, can't edit old posts, forgot about that. Oh well. ill see if can get uh... phatboy to edit it for me :P

[nandus_nandus]

post 2

Just to contribute personal experience, I have spawned N. leleupi in the same tap water in which I've spawned Crenicichla lepidota.

[nandus_nandus]

post 3

While water parameters do have significance, they need to be considered with other factors in mind and in the context of many separate variables.

[nandus_nandus]

post 4

Especially for someone who is relatively new to the hobby, I'd more strongly recommend them to perform large, frequent water changes. My experience has been that this has a more profound effect on the health of one's aquarium fish than minute differences in pH and hardness.

[nandus_nandus]

post 5

Hopefully you are enjoying your new africans and not stressing yourself out too much about micro-managing your water parameters.

[Loubard]

ha ha, MFK member now!

Good you had something usefull to add! :)

[yellowoman]

have your ph at about 8.5.and use the crushed coral to keep the ph up and the water hard. test the tap water and if the ph is close to 8.5 you dont have to mess with it. there well worth it. enjoy your new fish.

[yellowoman]

the only time matching ph to the lake they came from is if they are f0 wild caught.
fish from LFS are most of the time tank raised.
if you have F0 fish and wrong ph there color and their habits will change alot from the first few days you got them.

[SinisterKisses]

Hmm...quite the debate. Its actually a little from both arguements though. True, most fish raised in tanks, don't have perfectly monitered pH levels and such in petstores, and they therefore learn to tolerate a wider pH range. African mbuna generally prefer a pH level ranging from about 7.6 to 8.5 or so. Now, they can survive in a tank with a lower pH, but to an extent. A fish that should have a pH level of 8.5, simply will not do as well in a tank with a pH of 5.5, that's all there is to it. A fish that should be in very hard water, will not thrive the way it should in very soft water. The point is, you don't have to be as completely anal with your water levels (all around) as to be dead on, but you should moniter them and aim for a few degrees of what's recommended. With mbuna, an easy way to do this, is to put crushed coral into the filter (canister filter works best). It raises the pH to a higher level like it should be, hardens the water like it should be, and once its in, you can basically just leave it - you don't have to moniter it every week and add more. It keeps working as it slowly dissolves in the water, making it last a very long time. Your fish will be happier for it.


And please don't feed your mbuna high meat-protein foods like earthworms and shrimp. pH is something they can adjust to, but an animal that is a herbivore will always be that way. If you want the best for your fish, and for them to be happy and healthy, feed them algae flakes and wafers, veggies and such, or even your basic 'cichlid flakes' or pellets are better than meaty, protein rich foods.

[piranha45]

Myself and many others have had no problems with feeding mbuna high-protein diets; indeed my mbuna occasionally indulge in ghost shrimp and danios on top of the 45% protein pellets they are served, and their growth, percievable health, and coloration is excellent.


The only cichlids i would not feed high-protein foods to are Tanganyikan Tropheus, as these fish WILL die of intestinal problems if fed such material.

[spryandspringy]

I'm on the proverbial fence. Before I knew any better, I was feeding a basic cichlid pellet (both protein and vegetable) and bloodworms to my mbuna. I never had any issues with them, they were in perfect health, grew quickly, and had great color. Then again, I must admit that now that I have more information, I feed spirulina and frozen, vegetable-based cichlid foods to my mbuna, and am seeing the same results. Doesn't seem to matter, but then again why take chances? Actually, I can answer that last, somewhat rhetorical question: If I had a mixed tank with both carnivorous and vegetarian species, I wouldn't sweat feeding meaty foods and "risking" the mbuna getting a taste. In an mbuna-only set-up, I'd stick with a vegetarian diet.

[TankGurl]

The only african cichlid species that require a monitored diet, to my knowledge and experience, are Tanganyikan Tropheus species.


I agree with this as well. I have a mixed Malawi tank and feed them NLS as well as cucumber, peas and brine shrimp and other protein based foods. I've had no problems at all with one exception when some newly shipped Red Rubies died due to the switch in their diet from the importer to me. (and that was my fault since I didn't ask what they were on previously)

Tropheus on the other hand will develop bloat if exposed to high protein content food. I have one tropheus in my Tang tank and it's doing very well on NLS. I target feed the other carnivores in the tank with krill or brine shrimp, so their dietary needs are not neglected. So far, so good. (ie. fish are breeding, growth rate is astounding)

Kelly

[piranha45]

I fed a certain duboisi in a mixed cichlid tank 40% Hikari Gold and 45% Kensfish pellets for about a year, before one day he went from perfectly fine to dead, due to bloated stomach. The high-protein stuff may run through them fine for quite a while, but one odd day it will kill them....

[TankGurl]

the only time matching ph to the lake they came from is if they are f0 wild caught.
fish from LFS are most of the time tank raised.
if you have F0 fish and wrong ph there color and their habits will change alot from the first few days you got them.

I've heard many reports confirming this which is why I started my WC in complimentary water conditions.

I add a Rift Lake buffer to both my tanks, keeping PH at 8.4 and GH/KH quite high. (The ph of my tap water is anywhere from 5.5 to 6.5.) I also have limestone and coral sand as a buffer in both tanks.

Both of my tanks thrive. I've never had an outbreak of ick, bloat or any other nasties in 3 yrs. I get multiple breedings and have noticed that nipped tails or fins heal within 24 hrs, due to the salt addition.

Other species I add that have been living in low PH are exposed to my high PH via a drip I setup. I usually run the drip for 2 hrs or so.

Mileage may vary with others, but it works wonderfully for my tanks.


Kelly

[The TRUST]

A good way to save money on fish supplies is to do away with the buffers and pH mix. Just use Baking Soda and Epsom salt.

My friends and I used these on our Tanganyikans and Malawis before and they were fine and thriving. Even breeding.

[Miles]

Uhhh. Wow. Interesting debate.

I 100% completely agree with everything P45 has said.

Don't screw with water paramaters unless your spawning, or have completely out of range water for what you are keeping.

I do agree that you should buffer your water, to keep your pH from falling. Crushed Coral usually solved the problems, but be careful. Sometimes certain crushed corals can have 'orthophosphates' binded to them, in which they release a high amount of phosphates in your water. With the right combination of tap water, orthophosphates, and lighting, you could have some VERY serious green water algae problems. A customer of mine had this issue, and now she is forced to either use water from her brothers house down the road, or a constant supply of Phos-X.

Consistancy is key. Too many people 'screw' with water paramaters, which creates a rollercoaster effect with each water change. The fish hate this way more then the uncomfort of being in a pH range that is slightly out of the 'ideal' paramaters, found in the wild.

Too many people fuss with RO Units, Buffers, yada yada yada.. When the key is adapt your fish to your water source, so you can make large frequent water changes. The fish are WAY more stressed from lack of proper water quality, than they are if the 'ideal water parameters' are somewhat out of range.

Obviously, African Cichlids shouldn't be kept in a low pH by any means. However, most soft-water fish can adapt to high pH, without too much trouble. Some are MUCH more sensative than others, such as Wild Discus and Wild Apistogrammas. I often import wild Stingrays, Cichlids, and Tetras directly into a pH of 7.6-7.8, with no problems.. However, Discus and Apistos, as well as a few other fish are a different story.

It's interesting to know that my PetSmart has a main system with shared water quality.. Everything from Killies and Tetras, to Mbunas and Aulonacaras are kept on the same water source. How come they thrive in such an 'un-optimal' environment? Because PetSmarts system has an automatic water change system which never allows the Nitrates to climb above 20ppm, and the water quality is CONSISTANT. I spawned many fish in PetSmarts tanks while I was working for them, and unfortunetly I got in trouble for intentionally breeding the fish. I spawned Convicts and Firemouths, in the same water that I spawned Red Zebras and Kenyi's. Wowie, If I would of tooken KUTTY's info, that would be impossible. Because fish that are 'just surviving', usually don't breed.. The breeding is usually done by fish that are 'thriving..' Right?

So Kutty, you tell me.. How can I import wild fish directly into a pH of 7.8, and have no issues? Especially with a fish as sensative as a Stingray? Also, if you were so 'absolutely correct' about the advice you give, you would know that not ALL African Rift Cichlids MUST have a pH of exactly 8.5. It was my understanding that only the lake tanganyika cichlids enjoyed a super high pH from 8.2-8.8? While most of the Victorian and Malawi water parameters range from 7.6-8.2, and 7.8-8.4? I guess I could be a know-it-all and jump down your throat for posting bad information.. But then again we are just hear to gather the opinions of others to make our own, not to get scientific evidence from any schmuck who has the ability to type.

:)

Miles

[Miles]

About the Dietery issues.. Wow! They sell foods designed for African Cichlids! Good deal :)

[Miles]

After doing some research, I stand corrected.


Scientific Quote:

Tanganyika is also around non-basaltic volcanoes, and picks up some of its chemistry from lava drainage. This is a factor in making Tanganyika quite a bit higher in pH and hardness, and more complex. Tanganyikan pH ranges from 8.7-9.0, and has a much higher amount of metallic cations that contribute to general hardness. Also higher are the reading for carbonates and bicarbonates. There are an absolutely incredible amount of dissolved solids in Tanganyika that are not found in the other two lakes and thus, has a very high electrical conductivity.

Malawi being such a large body of water, it should not come as a surprise that the pH values are rarely agreed upon, with values ranging from 7.7-8.8, depending upon where you look it up.

Lake Victoria is very similar to Malawi, moderately hard, with a pH range of, again, 7.7-8.8, while generally on the lower end. It also is high in nitrate and phosphorus, while both components are undetected or dubious in either of the other Lakes.


Soo, With that said.. It looks as if africans are Highly Adaptable.. ? Who agrees.. ?

[The TRUST]

I keep My Boulengerochromis microlepis which is from Tanganyika in a tank that has a ph of about 7.0-7.5 max and it is thriving. I don't feed it African cichlid food, in fact I feed all my fish the same food. They are all healthy and growing

[Miles]

Case in Point.

Thanks TRUST.

[spryandspringy]

Though the focus seems to be on the differences in your opinions, I see more similarities. Though each contributor has expressed a different opinion about one aspect of water quality (pH), as much emphasis has been put on all the other myriad aspects. We cichlid folks often get so caught up on this one, relatively small factor, that we "throw the fry out with the bathwater." :)

To sum up all of the input here:

1. Do the best you can with what you've got.
2. Monitor the health and well-being of your fish.
3. Consult the experts if you run into problems.

and most importantly:

4. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

:grinno:

[Miles]

Agreed... Well said Spryandspringy

and I would like to add..

5. Be Consistent.