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View Full Version : Wet/Dry Users: What Size Sump and Filter Flow Rate are you using?



Jgray152
02-18-2009, 4:06 PM
Im just curious to see what flow rates some are using for their specific sump sizes.

DB junkie
02-18-2009, 4:15 PM
Sump= 150 gallons

Pump= 4.7K GPH

When rebuilt there will be 2 of these pumps rather than just 1.

Bud8Fan
02-18-2009, 4:23 PM
Sump= 200 gallons

Pump= Mag Drive 2400 (probably getting about 1500 gph out of it after head loss)

Jgray152
02-18-2009, 6:11 PM
Fantastic folks, keep them coming :)

rucus
02-18-2009, 6:15 PM
I have a 30 gallon sump under a 125. Use a mag 700gph

Gator
02-18-2009, 6:45 PM
40G sump with a quiet one 4000 1017 GPH

Pharaoh
02-18-2009, 7:30 PM
100G sump

4.5K per hour

redchaser
02-18-2009, 7:31 PM
For my 75 gallon aquarium - 22 gallon sump (sterlite 90 quart container), quiet one 6000 pump. Rated at a little over 1500 GPH, but with head height and 90's, I think I'm running around 900 GPH. I'm using stackable drawers for a trickle filter and have around 8 gallons of bio media (mainly scrubbies).

nomicon
02-18-2009, 7:39 PM
300 Gallon Tank w 60 Gallon sump and six foot bio-tower. I'm running an Iwaki MD-70RT, 1100 GPH.

Diskord
02-18-2009, 7:41 PM
Haven't built my yet (this weekend) but 55gal sump /w Mag Drive 12 (aiming for 850gph) got a bigger pump for head and expansion in future

mp3coupe
02-18-2009, 8:30 PM
40G sump with a quiet one 4000 1017 GPH

same setup

Conner
02-18-2009, 8:38 PM
125g tank, 55g sump, x2 quiet one 4000 pumps, total gph estimated 1400-1500gph (2 x 1017gph at 5ft head).

esse
02-19-2009, 11:52 AM
125G tank
20G Sump
950 GPH Pump.

rucus
02-19-2009, 12:03 PM
300 Gallon Tank w 60 Gallon sump and six foot bio-tower. I'm running an Iwaki MD-70RT, 1100 GPH.

That biotower is awsome. I want one! :naughty:

packer43064
02-19-2009, 1:45 PM
515 GPH pump on a 10 gallon sump used for a 55 tank.

wizardslovak
02-20-2009, 8:59 PM
515 GPH pump on a 10 gallon sump used for a 55 tank.
thx man you just answered my question,
i got 55gall with 10gallon free tank which i am planing to convert into sump but never knew which flow rate to use !
bt what pipe sizes are you running

packer43064
02-20-2009, 11:09 PM
thx man you just answered my question,
i got 55gall with 10gallon free tank which i am planing to convert into sump but never knew which flow rate to use !
bt what pipe sizes are you running

Well....LOL. I actually don't have it running yet. I just finished making the sump with some extra glass. I got the pump for 20 bucks, pretty cheap. It was discontinued at petsmart in the pond section.

By this sticky http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205645 I'll probaly use an inch since it's close to 600 gph pump. There will be a little over a foot of head, that's it. Sorry couldn't help anymore.

rallysman
02-20-2009, 11:19 PM
Frankenfilter is a 100g tub filtering a 100, 125, and 300g with a reeflo dart (3600gph)
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176587

I also have a 75g sump on my 265 that's flowing about 800gph with a little giant.

toehead11183
02-20-2009, 11:22 PM
I have a 175g tank with a cpr194 rated at 200g and 800gph but i run 1200gph on it

mtuttle02
02-20-2009, 11:27 PM
150G Tank
20G Sump
950 GPH pump- 600 GPH or so after head loss

hybridtheoryd16
02-21-2009, 1:15 AM
125g tank 29g sump queit one 5000 pump(1330gph) and 2ft head height.

Jgray152
02-25-2009, 8:00 AM
Excellent. Thanks folks! This is very interesting to see.

invisyblegypsey
02-25-2009, 8:17 AM
2- 180g's ,2-280g's. 1 - 300g sump 4x mag 24's

basslover34
02-25-2009, 8:29 AM
Excellent. Thanks folks! This is very interesting to see.
Why is this interesting to see... your not asking the correct questions to find out WHY these sump sizes and flow rates are so different from person to person.

What are you trying to learn from this question (Like i don't already know :ROFL: , but for the benefit of everyone else)

pwmin
02-25-2009, 10:18 AM
ya, what do you wanna know?



55 gal sump....~870 GPH (w/ other filtration) on a 210

DB junkie
02-25-2009, 12:26 PM
Amazed there isn't any high flow rates.....

rallysman
02-25-2009, 1:14 PM
Amazed there isn't any high flow rates.....
It's not necessary:)

Chaitika
02-25-2009, 1:22 PM
A wet/dry is meant to be slow, hence the original name "trickle filter". A sump, on the other hand is a wet/dry filter without the media that became popular with reefers. I also am not sure what you're trying to figure out?

DB junkie
02-26-2009, 12:12 PM
It's not necessary:)

So why do people even bother trying to achieve a 10X turnover rate?

pwmin
02-26-2009, 1:12 PM
I would like to know, too. Most times, it's not necessary, but for certain fish it's a good safety net. Depends on what type of filtration, too.

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 1:35 PM
A 10x turnover rate is a figure arbitrarily made up somewhere on the "if I read it, it must be true internet".

Based on what I know from over 20 years in the hobby, it is almost always overkill and there is certainly safety in overkill. It does allow people to overstock to deal with aggression in african cichlids, and that is more than likely the area of the hobby where it is originating from.

It's also amazing ohw some hobbyists come to add the flow rates of their filters in order to achieve the magical number of 10x, without even factoring in that their filters slow down considerably once media is added. As far as I know, Eheim is the only filter manufacturer that identifies the filter flow rate with media.

Jgray152
02-26-2009, 1:50 PM
ya, what do you wanna know?
I have seen remarks regaurding what size a sump should be compaired to the flow rate. This thread contradicts most of what I have heard now.



A 10x turnover rate is a figure arbitrarily made up somewhere on the "if I read it, it must be true internet".

Based on what I know from over 20 years in the hobby, it is almost always overkill and there is certainly safety in overkill. It does allow people to overstock to deal with aggression in african cichlids, and that is more than likely the area of the hobby where it is originating from.

I agree.



It's also amazing ohw some hobbyists come to add the flow rates of their filters in order to achieve the magical number of 10x, without even factoring in that their filters slow down considerably once media is added. As far as I know, Eheim is the only filter manufacturer that identifies the filter flow rate with media.
Hagen and Rena do the same thing. Hagen I know does this with the Fx5 but I am not sure if they do it with there other filters. Hagen does have charts though that gives you a rough idea of what the flow will be with a certain amount of media.

mtuttle02
02-26-2009, 2:56 PM
From what I understand you want the most water contact time as possible for you biological media to work to its full potential- on wet/dry’s that is.

DB junkie
02-26-2009, 5:21 PM
^ Right.

SO, if my water is pumped throught the bio tower 20 times in an hour isn't that a lot more contact time then 4 times an hour?

So doesn't that mean higher flowrate = MORE contact time?

basslover34
02-26-2009, 6:13 PM
Sometimes... OH GOD... Ok... I'll make this SUPER Simple...

BIG Tanks... More stable water quality...less turn over (Stop confusing Flow rate with Turn over... it's anoyying :D :grinno:)

small tanks... less stable water quality... more turn over

That was easy wasn't it?

DB junkie
02-26-2009, 6:40 PM
Maybe you can bless me with your knowledge and explain to me the difference between flow rate and turnover since I am confusing the 2.

So, if I have a small tank I need a huge pump, but if I have a big tank then I just need a little pump...... OK now is 300 gallons "small"?

Make it super simple so I might have a chance at understanding......

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 6:45 PM
My understanding is that flow rate refers to "gallons per hour" flowing through the filter. Turnover rate refers to the volume of the tank and how many times per hour the volume of the tank is filtered.

Smaller volumes of water are more susceptible to quicker changes in basic parameters by way of pollutants, hence a need to filter the water more quickly. The parameters of larger volumes of water are less likely to be AS affected by pollutants, hence the filtration rate does not need to match that of a smaller volume of water.

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 6:50 PM
^ Right.

SO, if my water is pumped throught the bio tower 20 times in an hour isn't that a lot more contact time then 4 times an hour?

So doesn't that mean higher flowrate = MORE contact time?


It may be more contact time, but the whole idea of a wet/dry filter is to have the water flow the bio-media in an environment that is mostly air. Suspending the bio-media in a moist chamber allows the bacteria to basically function at maximum capacity. Oxygen is what makes them run. The water drips/trickles through. If you are flowing the water through the media in a way that itis more like a river of water streaming through the media, you are essentially defeating the whole purpose and you may as well use a canister filter.

So essentially, if you are using super-charged bacteria to filter your water, you don't need as many runs through it as you would with a filter that employs submerged bacteria.

DB junkie
02-26-2009, 6:51 PM
Right...... And when you run a sump with a single pump higher flowrate=higher turnover.

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 6:55 PM
Right...... And when you run a sump with a single pump higher flowrate=higher turnover.

Yep. :)

DB junkie
02-26-2009, 6:56 PM
Behold the part that I don't understand......

How does the flowrate have anything to do with how fast water falls? Gravity is constant.

If I run my wet dry with a 1K GPH pump then the water still falls through the bio tower at the same rate as if I was pumping 4K. The difference is the water actually makes it out to the perimeter of the drip plate with 4K as opposed to only an "island" of the drip plate with 1K.

IF you did NOT have a drip plate this might hold true..... But most "trickle" filters do use a drip tray now don't they?

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 7:00 PM
Ahh, see now you're getting to the crux of the matter.

Filtering 500 gph or 1000 gph of water through the same drip tray will result in two different outcomes. At some point, the water flowing through the drip tray is no longer a drip/trickle, it becomes a stream. If the tray is drilled with enough holes, and the small streams of water are broken up quickly by way of hitting a piece of bio media, then you might achieve the same result. When dripping through it is already in smaller droplets, meaning greater surface area and more gas exchange. There is way more gas exchange happening in an unstable flow of drops as opposed to a steady stream of water. Drops fall more randomly through the plate, whereas a small stream falls the same way almost all the time. If that small stream does not make contact and break into drops, the effect is lost.

basslover34
02-26-2009, 7:01 PM
:headbang2 Someone got it :D

now I can retire :ROFL:

Chaitika
02-26-2009, 7:05 PM
:headbang2 Someone got it :D

now I can retire :ROFL:

Not so easily. There's always more work to be done here. :)

basslover34
02-26-2009, 8:10 PM
Crap... And I was [--------] that close...:nilly::ROFL:


Not so easily. There's always more work to be done here. :)

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 12:09 AM
So this "unbroken stream" occurs... And "the effect is lost" this means???

Seems to me at worst you may loose a little efficiency. I would think insufficient filtration would be more detramentel to the fish then a "Innefficient" wet/dry.

Not trying to argue the principles here...... But I think it IS possible to have a wet dry work efficiently with a decent flowrate.

Rivermud
02-27-2009, 12:23 AM
So this "unbroken stream" occurs... And "the effect is lost" this means???

Seems to me at worst you may loose a little efficiency. I would think insufficient filtration would be more detramentel to the fish then a "Innefficient" wet/dry.

Not trying to argue the principles here...... But I think it IS possible to have a wet dry work efficiently with a decent flowrate.

You are correct. I think the point they were making is that you want to try to make the filter as efficient as possible. Some people try to takes things like turnover rate and use them as gospel without really realizing how to utiliz their bio filtration. People need to base their filtration based on their bio load, not so much their turnover rate or sump size. This is why each sump and/or other filtration setup is unique for each hobbyist. The idea is to provide stable healthy parameters in your tank which really has nothing to do with massive turnover but more with proper bio filtration based on the load your system pushes which will be unique to you. A lot of us like to "go large" to provide a buffer zone and less chance of failure or spiking.

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 12:42 AM
This is true.... I guess efficiency just kinda goes out the window when you start talking the bio load of a dozen rays...... LOL

But a higher flowrate design can obviously work, it hasn't let me down since I built mine.

Rivermud
02-27-2009, 12:48 AM
This is true.... I guess efficiency just kinda goes out the window when you start talking the bio load of a dozen rays...... LOL

But a higher flowrate design can obviously work, it hasn't let me down since I built mine.

Oh absolutely it can work. I think the message was that it's way more important to make sure the system functions efficiently than to make it function fast.... I'm sure you have a hardcore sump with a massive amount of bio media to address the load, if it didn't do the job, you'd be the first to know lol.

Chaitika
02-27-2009, 7:03 AM
Yep, its about understanding how a wet/dry is efficient and maximizing it's potential, as opposed to following some phantom rule arbitrarily perpetuated on the net. :)

Another thing to keep in mind is if you're using a closed chamber, air should be injected with a small air pump and tubing. :)

basslover34
02-27-2009, 7:40 AM
Yep, its about understanding how a wet/dry is efficient and maximizing it's potential, as opposed to following some phantom rule arbitrarily perpetuated on the net. :)
[/quote
Don't go saying that... there is actually a reason to have a higher flow rate but it makes your bio filtration less efficient, Higher flow rate means better mech filtration... It's all about finding a good balance between the 2
[quote]
Another thing to keep in mind is if you're using a closed chamber, air should be injected with a small air pump and tubing. :)
not true... there are different types of bacterial growth for each, which is why canister filters don't have a built in aeration

Chaitika
02-27-2009, 7:49 AM
It is exactly true if we're talking about aerobic filtration. There is no filter on the market that is intended to filter with aerobic bacteria as well as anaerobic bacteria. It may happen in a canister, but that is exactly what I don't like about canisters. The filter, bilogically speaking, is only as efficient as the amount of oxygen in the water.

If you are using a regular filter and you're getting anaerobic activity, it actually means there is a dead spot in the filter. Anaerobic bacteria can only function in an oxygen deprived environment. If that happens in a regular filter and you disturb it by shaking the canister or whatever, you will release some nasty gases.

Denitrators are filters intended for that type of activity. 10-15 years ago when reefers were messing with plenums, essentially deadzones under layers of sand in the tank, the intent was to create an anaerobic chamber to reduce nitrates. It didn't work so well since I think the idea was given up on.

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 9:00 AM
Yep, its about understanding how a wet/dry is efficient and maximizing it's potential, as opposed to following some phantom rule arbitrarily perpetuated on the net. :)

Another thing to keep in mind is if you're using a closed chamber, air should be injected with a small air pump and tubing. :)

Blast! :irked:

I failed again...... I have a regenerative blower blasting air in there rather than a "small" air pump.

Rays = Excessive everything = Happy rays. :)

This thread has given me many ideas.....
So would the water in my sump allready contain too much O2 from the bio tower to be able to sustain anaerobic bacteria if it was to say be pumped from the sump with a VERY small pump to another fully submerged sump (Jap style)??????

Mudfrog
02-27-2009, 9:19 AM
My 120g has a 29g sump and 2400gph pump..

basslover34
02-27-2009, 9:25 AM
It is exactly true if we're talking about aerobic filtration. There is no filter on the market that is intended to filter with aerobic bacteria as well as anaerobic bacteria. It may happen in a canister, but that is exactly what I don't like about canisters. The filter, bilogically speaking, is only as efficient as the amount of oxygen in the water.


You are right, IF we are talking aerobic filtration... usually however your not going to be using a Sealed chamber for that type of filter however. It might be covered but not sealed... a covered box will allow enough o2 exchange (usully anyway) to allow for no need of a pump.

Perhaps my understanding of your version of Seal enclosure was different than intended :D

basslover34
02-27-2009, 9:30 AM
Blast! :irked:

I failed again...... I have a regenerative blower blasting air in there rather than a "small" air pump.

Rays = Excessive everything = Happy rays. :)

This thread has given me many ideas.....
So would the water in my sump allready contain too much O2 from the bio tower to be able to sustain anaerobic bacteria if it was to say be pumped from the sump with a VERY small pump to another fully submerged sump (Jap style)??????

With a ray tank I wouldn't be concerning myself with too much o2 :D you can use all you want via normal methods... your O2 Level could be low or high depending on the amount of the drop and the amount of turbulance along the way. without testing your water to know where you stand to begin with your making an assumption only... but chances are good that you'd be just fine with that set up

Chaitika
02-27-2009, 9:57 AM
You are right, IF we are talking aerobic filtration... usually however your not going to be using a Sealed chamber for that type of filter however. It might be covered but not sealed... a covered box will allow enough o2 exchange (usully anyway) to allow for no need of a pump.

Perhaps my understanding of your version of Seal enclosure was different than intended :D

Yeah, I think we were both thinking of different things. I didn't mean sealed, I meant enclosed. If you look at Amiracle's wet/dry's, you'll see that they recommend air injection. :D

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 10:13 AM
With a ray tank I wouldn't be concerning myself with too much o2 :D you can use all you want via normal methods... your O2 Level could be low or high depending on the amount of the drop and the amount of turbulance along the way. without testing your water to know where you stand to begin with your making an assumption only... but chances are good that you'd be just fine with that set up

I'm not concerned with too much O2....:ROFL: I was being sarcastic.

I've alsways been intrigued by the Jap sumps and the possibility of anaerobic bacteria to be utilized after a big wet dry. Just not sure if it would work like I'm thinking it would.... I had my way with an acrylic tank that used to be one of those divided tanks you see at the LFS, and modified the dividers to force water over and under 5 different media chambers. Was hoping if this was fed with a really long water line and a small pump in my current sump, it would house anaerobic bacteria.

So you think it might just work?

basslover34
02-27-2009, 10:58 AM
Should work... although if you already have enough anaerobic filtration then it won't be of any use to you...just moving it

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 11:12 AM
^^ I thought anaerobic couldn't live in an oxygen rich enviroment like an air injected wet/dry?

basslover34
02-27-2009, 11:48 AM
^^ I thought anaerobic couldn't live in an oxygen rich enviroment like an air injected wet/dry?
as long as it's submersed it's alright... it's when there is more o2 than water that it's a problem

DB junkie
02-27-2009, 11:56 AM
:headbang2

Filtrations fun.

I really wish I wouldn't have missed some steps in the process of eveolution of a MFKer. I really needed to find all this filtration crap interesting and started experimenting with it before spending oodles of money on fish.

But I guess if you don't spend the money on the fish and loose a few you don't truley understand the importance of it.

Maybe by stumbling onto threads like this some of the newer generations of MFKers will find it interesting......

basslover34
02-27-2009, 12:34 PM
They will either find it interesting or mind numbingly boring LOL

alleykat0498
02-27-2009, 1:10 PM
I personally find it Extremely interesting! I have a thousand questions about sumps and pumps and overflows, as I have no experience with them until tonight when I begin to plumb a drilled 125 and turn an old glass 55 into a sump. I do know that bacteria functions best in an oxygen rich environment so I will use a trickle effect in my bio chamber and then baffle out the bubbles, other than mechanical filtration is there anything else I need?

FSM
02-27-2009, 3:23 PM
75 gallon tank, premaid sump that came with it (used) maybe 20 gallons tops. quiteone 3000 pump, 780GPH @ no head height.