View Full Version : SALT AND RTC'S????????
bigcol
10-04-2009, 2:27 AM
Hi all, ive done alot of research on this but still stumped, i really need ur help.
My largest rtc most defo has internal parasites, the water quality spiked like crazy all over the place really, ph 6.0----amm is now lowered to near 0 but was off the charts last week (above 8.0ppm) nitrites are slowly going up 0.50 (not good but its a sign that there is BB to deal with the amm in the water) and nitrates are at 40ppm have been from the begining. My question is really, can i add salt to the water to help get rid of these parasites that are clearly causing my rtc to breath faster than usual, the inside of his mouth is all red and what looks to me like ulsers!!!! he still eats squid but not massive portions like he used to, hes roughly 2ft in length but lost alot of weight over the past couple of weeks. I did notice gill curl starting to form so drastic action was required, for the past few days ive been doing a 50% water change adding declorinator for every change, the tank is an 8x2x2 so i add 15ml to deal with the chlorine and other harmfull metals in the water. I also added a bottle of freindly bacteria to try help speed up the cycle as something obviously killed the BB in my filteration. I have more than enough bio media in my sump to deal with the load and there is more than enough oxygen/circulation in the water too. The temp in the tank is 22dc sometimes reaching 24-26 (its very cold out these days) temp does not fluctuate all the time it usually sticks to 22-24. This all probably looks a little messed up in the way its wrote but im trying to give as much info as poss so i can get an instant solution to my problem. I have salt in the med cabinet but not sure weither to use it or not as i know catfish are scaleless and it can do more harm than good but also know that the salt is good for getting rid of internal parasites.
Please help guys im really stuck on this 1 and dont want to start using crazy amounts of meds :) Thanks in advance
bigcol
10-04-2009, 5:38 AM
Ok i found this, thank you lupin for making this easier as my earlier post was all over the place with lots of thoughts here and there so i will try my best to answer all of these questions as detailed as poss ;)
Q,1. What is the size of your tank?
A,1. 8x2x2 236G/ 1200L approx
Q,2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used.
A,2. PH=6.0.....AMMONIA=0.25.....NITRATE=0.50......NITR ATE=40ppm. Test kit used is an API high range low range test kit. The ammonia a week ago was off the charts, there was a massive spike in toxins.
Q,3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water?
A,3. setup is freshwater but heard somewhere should be slighlty brakish???
Q,4. How long the aquarium has been set up?
A,4. Approx 7 mnths due to a house move.
Q,5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?
A,5. 3xrtc, 2@ 1.5' largest@ 2'... 1xcommon pleco@ 11"... 1xmarble catfish@ 1.5'... 1xalbino oscar@ 10"... 2xred bellied pacu@ 11"each... 1xalbino channel fish@ 1.5'. Thats 9 fish in total and ive had all fish for 1 yr, pacu and channell fish 6mnths or less.
Q,6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?
A,6. No tank big enough to quarantine.
Q,7. What temperature is the tank water currently?
A,7. currently at 22c, trying to get it upto 24-26c.
Q,8. Are there live plants in the aquarium?
A,8. No live plants at all.
Q,9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity.
A,9. Im using a 4x1x18" sump with 3 baffles 4 chambers. There is filter wool and sponges (jad matting) in the 1st chamber, bio balls and lots of ceramic noodles in the 2nd chamber, scrubbies more ceramic noodles and an anti ammonia media (looks like tiny shards of green slate in a sack) in the 3rd chamber and finally the last chamber has a 5000LPH pond pump. I also have an Fluval fx5 running on the sump. I clean both out every 5-6mnths with water from the tank. I have also put some extra filteration at the left side of the tank for extra circulation, 1xfluval 4+ and a bubble block.
Q,10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)?
A,10. No other equipment used.
Q,11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)?
A,11. There is natural sunlight that hits the tank at around 4-5pm in the evening usually lasting around 1.5hrs depending on the sky conditions, if its constant i tend to close the blinds on the windows to stop it blasting in. Im using a normal dual lighting system which u would find on any garage or kitchen ceiling, it has 1 4ft neon blue bulb in it, i did have to white bulbs running but decided to remove them. All bulbs i use are aquarium freindly, i never use household tubes for aquarium lighting.
Q,12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate?
A,12. My last water change was 2 days ago 2/10/2009, I done a 50% change for approx 3 days prior and on the day i mentioned i also syphoned the gravel on of those occasions. I do a 50% water change every sunday afternoon and only just started using Waterlife poolshield dechlorinator and Waterlife bacterlife freindly bacteria to try speed up the bb.
Q,13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule?
A,13. Squid, muscles, prawns every 2-3 days, any left over food is taken out within 30-45mins.
Q,14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish?
A,14. My largest rtc has heavy breathing and a redness in his mouth, also looks like ulser formations inside the mouth, Gills also started to curl but are not getting any worse as far. 1 of my smaller rtc's is also showing the same signs but without the gill curl, he also has a redness next to his tail, looks like a red bloch (veins).
Q,15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis.
A,15. I havnt treated them with anything yet as i thought it might/could make matters worse.
Hope this helps alot, this is all the information i have at present, if there is any further progress or spikes i will be sure to post them and thanks to lupin and othermembers for making this easier.
bigcol
10-04-2009, 7:25 AM
Ive just took a couple of pics to help u guys further hope they help as they arnt the best quality.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1260&pictureid=32053
Notice the redness, this is 1 of my 1.5' rtc, now ive noticed the same mark on my 2' rtc the 1 with the breathing probs, heres another pic, a close up.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1260&pictureid=32052
Please guys try and help me out here im at my wits end with thinking of a solution, ive never seen anything like this before so dont really know what the best course of action would be apart from water changes.
markx2005
10-04-2009, 3:38 PM
bump
bigcol
10-04-2009, 4:03 PM
Thanks for the bump mark, so while im here i might aswell add that im really getting desperate now, the redness is spreading on the skin of 2 of y rtc's the largest and 1 of the 1.5fters, they are both breathing rapidly and doing a strange barking movement with the gills flaring wide open along with the mouth. C'mon guys what is this illness i really need to get ontop of this thing asap. I know it started with the water params spiking and im slowly getting ontop of that, very slowly, but if i dont treat them soon im afraid they will die :(
Hi Col,
I got your PM.
Firstly, I looked into your water parameters. Your ammonia currently is not toxic if your pH is actually 6.0. Most of it turned ammonium when your water is acidic so it is unlikely to be an issue at this moment as the ammonia is far less enough to intoxicate your fish. Your nitrite on the other hand, needs to be addressed as it can intoxicate your fish. What is the average level of your nitrate? Even 40 ppm is still high for most fish.
Your setup needs not be brackish. None of your fish requires brackish conditions. There are too many people out there who spread around misinformation without further analyzing the actual needs of your fish just for the sake of being "helpful" to one's need.
As for your quarantine setup, it does not have to be a tank. If you can get a spare tub big enough to serve as a quarantine, then it will work just fine. We do need a quarantine setup all the time regardless of the circumstances otherwise you risk losing all your fish for various reasons if we don't.
I looked at the symptoms and everything stems from very poor water quality. Do you also have abrasive decorations? Do you notice the fish scratching their mouths and other body areas? Your options here are either reduce the number of your fish further or do more water changes. Only clean water will help rectify those issues along with a 0.3% solution of salt which is 3 teaspoons per gallon. If you have those gravel, I'd rather remove those and maintain a barebottom setup if your fish excrete heavy amounts of wastes.
bigcol
10-04-2009, 11:22 PM
Hi Col,
I got your PM.
Firstly, I looked into your water parameters. Your ammonia currently is not toxic if your pH is actually 6.0. Most of it turned ammonium when your water is acidic so it is unlikely to be an issue at this moment as the ammonia is far less enough to intoxicate your fish. Your nitrite on the other hand, needs to be addressed as it can intoxicate your fish. What is the average level of your nitrate? Even 40 ppm is still high for most fish.
Your setup needs not be brackish. None of your fish requires brackish conditions. There are too many people out there who spread around misinformation without further analyzing the actual needs of your fish just for the sake of being "helpful" to one's need.
As for your quarantine setup, it does not have to be a tank. If you can get a spare tub big enough to serve as a quarantine, then it will work just fine. We do need a quarantine setup all the time regardless of the circumstances otherwise you risk losing all your fish for various reasons if we don't.
I looked at the symptoms and everything stems from very poor water quality. Do you also have abrasive decorations? Do you notice the fish scratching their mouths and other body areas? Your options here are either reduce the number of your fish further or do more water changes. Only clean water will help rectify those issues along with a 0.3% solution of salt which is 3 teaspoons per gallon. If you have those gravel, I'd rather remove those and maintain a barebottom setup if your fish excrete heavy amounts of wastes.
Hi Lupin, TY for getting back to me on this 1 i was really starting to worry about the condition of my fish. I will take time to answer all of ur questions to the best of my ability.
1. amonia and nitrites are/were lowering slowly but when i left the water changes for a day then they started to rise slowly again, as for the nitrates, even though the other params have been slowly going down the nitrates have allways been at 40ppm, its the ph i am having trouble with stabilizing as for some reason it will not level out and stick it just seems to plumet to the the bottom of the chart within a day or 2.
2. The brakish water did have me a bit confused as ive never had to use brakish before so yeah i agree with u there, a few too many people decide to speak before they think these days, i prefer to answer from experience rather than thought of mind or a hunch. So brackish is a big NO NO ;).
3. Quarantine setups has never been needed for my fish before, maybe ur right and its something i should seriously consider doing, a tub large enough imo for my fish size would most defo be a large concrete tub that u see on lots of building sites around these parts, they do require alot of cleaning and attention b4 using ofcourse so its something i will most defo look into.
4. The water quality is the problem, well i most certainly agree with u on that 1, i noticed my 2ft rtc breathing fast 1 wk ago so thats when i tested the water and found params to spike badly and here we are today at this stage, its amazing how fast things can go wrong if its taking for granted that all is fine. The only decor i have in the tank is 3 large rocks which ive had for a long time, no sharp edges at all just basiclly gravel and those rocks, Yeah the 2 rtc's in question do scratch more than often rubbing against the gravel and rocks as if they are really itchy at times and getting really agitated but this is only since i noticed the spike so i guess u could say that i noticed things straight away instead of ignoring the obvious. , im doing alot more water changes than usual now i was doing big ones for atleast 4 days before i decided to leave for a day or so and see what happened, after 2 days with no water changes params started to rise again but the ph was still low, i only noticed the ph rise with large changes, so yeah ur right, little and more often maybe the way to go. U mention adding salt and removing the substrate maybe even reducing stock.........
Lupin thats a hell of a lot of salt matey, 3 teaspoons per G, can i ask is that in US G or UK G?? what type of salt would you recommend?? and will this help with the rtc's illness?? its really starting to look like a gill and skin problem that doesnt seem to be getting any better as the days go on.
Im currently thinking about getting rid of the 2xpacu i have and also the channel fish and the oscar, when i syphon the gravel it is very clean so not sure weither to remove the substrate or not as yet, im really trying to concentrate o n getting the water params correct. maybe it would be a good idea to take it out, thats something i will look into anyway. TY again Lupin for getting back to me on this 1 its really helpfull of u and kind to respond, hopefully all willl be well with them soon, with ur help and advice i think sooner than we all think ;).
I will keep u all updated on any large or small changes :thumbsup:
Lupin
10-05-2009, 12:17 AM
If your pH is not stabilizing, then you may need to look into your KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). Please determine the tests using API liquid drops. Your hardness levels should not be equivalent to less than 4 degrees which is ridiculously soft that with your nitrate elevating from time to time, your pH dangerously drops easily. Might I suggest you go with calcium carbonate. It is easily obtained by using crushed corals and seashells. Your other sources are limestones and calcium tablets by Caltrate. Tums can turn your water "liquid rock" almost immediately and has a tendency to cloud the water due to high sucrose content however no lasting harm is done anyway.
If not a tub, you can always look for kiddie pools but buy the kiddie pools that are not inflatable or they'll puncture with your catfish's sharp spines located on their pectoral fins. Your other option is to use large drums sliced in half vertically. It does help a lot although the width is a little narrow so kiddie pools may be a much better option to choose.
I'd get all the substrate out now. Your fish continue to scratch which means we have more things to suspect that had been overlooked before. It is likely flukes is also involved in the process. Only praziquantel can treat that. See a separate thread I posted for UK folks so you can source the necessary treatments.
The gravel may seem clean to you but it may not be what you think it is. I made that similar assumption before only to end up with excessive clouding from my constant vacuuming. The excess organic matter accumulating is easy to overlook.
Actually, the dosage of salt (sodium chloride) should be added slowly and carefully dissolved as I earlier advised. The amount of salt may seem a lot to you but this is one way combined with praziquantel for us to destroy other suspected pathogens involved and neutralize the nitrite's toxic effects. Dissolution is one step many people forget that they lose their bottom dwellers in the process. I made that similar mistake before but I did not regret it as I learned from my mistakes.
bigcol
10-05-2009, 1:40 AM
If your pH is not stabilizing, then you may need to look into your KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). Please determine the tests using API liquid drops. Your hardness levels should not be equivalent to less than 4 degrees which is ridiculously soft that with your nitrate elevating from time to time, your pH dangerously drops easily. Might I suggest you go with calcium carbonate. It is easily obtained by using crushed corals and seashells. Your other sources are limestones and calcium tablets by Caltrate. Tums can turn your water "liquid rock" almost immediately and has a tendency to cloud the water due to high sucrose content however no lasting harm is done anyway.
If not a tub, you can always look for kiddie pools but buy the kiddie pools that are not inflatable or they'll puncture with your catfish's sharp spines located on their pectoral fins. Your other option is to use large drums sliced in half vertically. It does help a lot although the width is a little narrow so kiddie pools may be a much better option to choose.
I'd get all the substrate out now. Your fish continue to scratch which means we have more things to suspect that had been overlooked before. It is likely flukes is also involved in the process. Only praziquantel can treat that. See a separate thread I posted for UK folks so you can source the necessary treatments.
The gravel may seem clean to you but it may not be what you think it is. I made that similar assumption before only to end up with excessive clouding from my constant vacuuming. The excess organic matter accumulating is easy to overlook.
Actually, the dosage of salt (sodium chloride) should be added slowly and carefully dissolved as I earlier advised. The amount of salt may seem a lot to you but this is one way combined with praziquantel for us to destroy other suspected pathogens involved and neutralize the nitrite's toxic effects. Dissolution is one step many people forget that they lose their bottom dwellers in the process. I made that similar mistake before but I did not regret it as I learned from my mistakes.
Ok i will get hold of all the stuff you suggested here and the substrate will be gone this after noon, im assuming u mean the rocks too so they will also go. I understood what u meant with the salt it just seemed alot, i forgot about the actual scale of things thnking about my rtc's and how to cure them, your the expert on this sort of thing so im gona go with what ever u suggest. A kh + gh test was suggested on aquaria central network, something u have just clarified for me as i didnt understand what it meant so thanks for that.
Ok Lupin, i will get on the substrate asap, as for the rest, well i cant really do anything about that sort of stuff untill tomorrow as that is the only day i have to myself but im on it now and feel a little lighter knowing what to do. Once i have all the ingredients and have the substrate out i will be sure to post and let u know of all/any progress good or bad..............
Hopefully great news ;) TY again Lupin :D
bigcol
10-05-2009, 1:59 AM
just done a quick water test before i leave results are= PH=6.8.....amm=0.50.....nitrite=1.0 and nitrates=20ppm.
I did do a water change last night so im sure thats why they have changed so much, im assuming that the resuklts later on will be considerably different so i will post them after i take the substrate out and maybe do another 25% water change.
bigcol
10-05-2009, 7:01 AM
just came off the phone from my lfs, a great guy, a good freind. He doesnt have prazi prob because it isnt here in the uk???although he does has waterlife steradin ( ithink it was prenounced) which can deal with the fluke, he also has the test kit i need and he ordered me some coral gravel which he said would be a great factor in the fight against the hardness and ph. Im having dinner then gona take the gravel out the tank and do a 25% water change. I will get back to u later or tomorrow with the KH + GH results Lupin.
Waterlife Sterazin? What are the ingredients of that?
bigcol
10-05-2009, 7:21 AM
I dont know as of yet Lupin but i will sure to let you know asap, this coral gravel could be the answer to all my prayers though as it (according to what ive been told by my lfs) will keep the hardness to a level so the ph will stabalize, am i right in saying that Lupin?? I could be wrong im just learning and listening to what people say atm, i must say im really happy ur helping me on this 1 Lupin a big :thumbsup: to u and another thanks
It depends on the amount of crushed corals though but once the hardness levels have been maintained high enough (no lower than 4 degrees), then it should hold the pH steadily. You could use Tums which turns water into "liquid rock" but the process is very quick that most fish won't like the sudden increase of hardness levels assuming your hardness were incredibly low to begin with although I kept mostly plecos, guppies and goldfish where I dosed Tums before so it wasn't an issue for me since my water is already hard as it is. I did warn you before about it clouding the water because of high sucrose content so Caltrate may be a much better alternative. I even add Caltrate on my fish's dietary menu. Too bad...The calcium carbonate tablets aggravate my calcium deposit issues sometimes.
justonemoretank
10-05-2009, 8:00 AM
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/fwh2oquality.htm
This is an article which describes a salt mix that will raise KH and raise pH. It is actually very little "salt," with 1 teaspoon of marine salt mix and 1 teaspoon of baking soda, along with 1 tablespoon of epsom salt, per 20 gallons. I just finished using this in my pond because my pH was reading at 6, but was likely even lower, and my biological filter was failing (I was getting ammonia readings, despite water flow of 12x volume and a huge filter). I ended up using just 1 cup of the marine salt mix, 1 cup of baking soda, and 3 cups of epsom salt for 1,000 gallons. My pH is now at 7.2, KH is at 4, and ammonia is at 0. If you'll check out this article, it gives the recipe I just gave you, and it also discusses how to begin dosing this (obviously, not all at once, to avoid shocking fish, but 25% every few days). This really works. I was surprised at how well it worked. But it does, and it's fast and cheap.
bigcol
10-05-2009, 8:48 AM
It depends on the amount of crushed corals though but once the hardness levels have been maintained high enough (no lower than 4 degrees), then it should hold the pH steadily. You could use Tums which turns water into "liquid rock" but the process is very quick that most fish won't like the sudden increase of hardness levels assuming your hardness were incredibly low to begin with although I kept mostly plecos, guppies and goldfish where I dosed Tums before so it wasn't an issue for me since my water is already hard as it is. I did warn you before about it clouding the water because of high sucrose content so Caltrate may be a much better alternative. I even add Caltrate on my fish's dietary menu. Too bad...The calcium carbonate tablets aggravate my calcium deposit issues sometimes.
I will have to have a look at the sack when he gets it to determine how much crushed coral is actually in there, i think the course of action now is to measure the hardness of the water 1st then go from there but will i still beable to treat the fluke whilst all this is going on or would it be a better idea to 1st take gravel out then measure hardness then treat after a small water change anwyay, 1nce the gravel is out. Tums sounds sort of dangerous for fish Lupin, liquid rock!!!! it must make the water really hard, thats the way it sounds anyway, i know nothing about all this stuff im basiclly learning from u guys as i go along. I thought aslong as the amm and nitrates were out of the picture then all was fine, how wrong was I.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/fwh2oquality.htm
This is an article which describes a salt mix that will raise KH and raise pH. It is actually very little "salt," with 1 teaspoon of marine salt mix and 1 teaspoon of baking soda, along with 1 tablespoon of epsom salt, per 20 gallons. I just finished using this in my pond because my pH was reading at 6, but was likely even lower, and my biological filter was failing (I was getting ammonia readings, despite water flow of 12x volume and a huge filter). I ended up using just 1 cup of the marine salt mix, 1 cup of baking soda, and 3 cups of epsom salt for 1,000 gallons. My pH is now at 7.2, KH is at 4, and ammonia is at 0. If you'll check out this article, it gives the recipe I just gave you, and it also discusses how to begin dosing this (obviously, not all at once, to avoid shocking fish, but 25% every few days). This really works. I was surprised at how well it worked. But it does, and it's fast and cheap.
Is that the same site u pointed me to earlier in the week??? on the thread mark made on my behalf?? I dont like experimenting with stuff to be honest i prefer to ask the experts or look it up myself and find a ready made product. Im starting to understand what you and Lupin is saying now though, well sort of but i will get there 1 day and heres me thinking i had the fish keeping hobby cracked when really all i was doing was creating my own problems by not checking out the way things were/should be properly. It just goes to show what impact a small amount of ignorance can have, my case is the perfect result of that. I will sure enough take time to look at that info u gave me though, who knows i might learn something ;)
justonemoretank
10-05-2009, 8:59 AM
It's not an experiment... this is a tried-and-true method for solving this problem. WetWebMedia is a site full of people who have been doing this for a long time, and they're not just kids in their mom's basements (no offense to kids in their mom's basements), they're people who have been fishkeeping for a long time, that have degrees. The guy who wrote this article, Neale Monks, commonly writes for fishkeeping magazines. He's had two articles in them in the past three months. Other members of WWM write for print magazines, too. In addition, I'm telling you it worked for me... I wouldn't suggest it if I didn't know it worked. They do sell salt mixes for this purpose, but it's cheaper to make it at home.
I will have to have a look at the sack when he gets it to determine how much crushed coral is actually in there, i think the course of action now is to measure the hardness of the water 1st then go from there but will i still beable to treat the fluke whilst all this is going on or would it be a better idea to 1st take gravel out then measure hardness then treat after a small water change anwyay, 1nce the gravel is out. Tums sounds sort of dangerous for fish Lupin, liquid rock!!!! it must make the water really hard, thats the way it sounds anyway, i know nothing about all this stuff im basiclly learning from u guys as i go along. I thought aslong as the amm and nitrates were out of the picture then all was fine, how wrong was I.
Tums is not dangerous. It does however elevate the KH quickly but as I said, my water is already hard without Tums added so it is not a problem with me. My point is if you adjust the hardness gradually and carefully, then Tums can be used without any issues except for the cloudy effect.
bigcol
10-05-2009, 10:18 AM
It's not an experiment... this is a tried-and-true method for solving this problem. WetWebMedia is a site full of people who have been doing this for a long time, and they're not just kids in their mom's basements (no offense to kids in their mom's basements), they're people who have been fishkeeping for a long time, that have degrees. The guy who wrote this article, Neale Monks, commonly writes for fishkeeping magazines. He's had two articles in them in the past three months. Other members of WWM write for print magazines, too. In addition, I'm telling you it worked for me... I wouldn't suggest it if I didn't know it worked. They do sell salt mixes for this purpose, but it's cheaper to make it at home.
When i said i dont like experimenting i didnt mean that ur solution hadnt been tried and tested and proven to work matey, all i meant was if i get it wrong then things can go from bad to even worse, i will give it a go 1 day but at the min im going to go the other way around it and get something ready made if i can or like i said earlier the coral/sea shell gravel i discribed to Lupin earlier. Didnt intend to offend u dude, but i will say i will try to get this mixture right on a 2ft tank i have before i start doing it where my fish are afterall it doesnt look too hard to do. Thanks for helping btw, oh and im sort of like a kid in his moms basement, only im a 32yr old kid in my garage at my own home with the wife and kids on board :ROFL:
Tums is not dangerous. It does however elevate the KH quickly but as I said, my water is already hard without Tums added so it is not a problem with me. My point is if you adjust the hardness gradually and carefully, then Tums can be used without any issues except for the cloudy effect.
Im beginning to get the impression i dont just have to do the water hardness once Lupin, im guessing this will be an ongoing thing?? correct me if im wrong, if so i will ask my lfs about tums also for future reference and/or use. I dont mind a bit cloudiness of the water aslong as the fish are happy they could live in black water for me if it helps them live hapily ever after. Anyway im off to get this substrate out the tank now and do a 25%-30% water change when its all out, im sure it will stir stuff up in the water once i move it all, even though it does seem to be spotless gravel. bbs with a test, maybe sometime tonight.
Just thought i would add that my small rtc symptoms seem to be alot harsher than the large rtc, there is alot more redness in the mouth and gills, i cant wait untill tomorrow to finally get them treated once and for all.
justonemoretank
10-05-2009, 10:23 AM
I wasn't offended... I just wanted to emphasize that it's not experimental... Obviously, you're going to end up going with one solution or the other. If you check out my latest "Pond update" in the characins media lounge, you'll see how clear my water is. My fish are acting completely healthy and normal, and actually even better than before, now that I don't have a constant .5 ammonia level. I really think that this is the best way to raise pH and KH. I have to admit that I've never tried to do it any other way, but it was easy to measure, easy to mix, and easy to add, and is really simple to replace during water changes, because you add as much as you take out, and you can measure that easily by how much volume you remove. 25% of volume, add 25% of mix, etc. Also, it's cheap, as I said, and we're dealing with large volumes of water, so it's important to be economical.
Im beginning to get the impression i dont just have to do the water hardness once Lupin, im guessing this will be an ongoing thing?? correct me if im wrong, if so i will ask my lfs about tums also for future reference and/or use. I dont mind a bit cloudiness of the water aslong as the fish are happy they could live in black water for me if it helps them live hapily ever after. Anyway im off to get this substrate out the tank now and do a 25%-30% water change when its all out, im sure it will stir stuff up in the water once i move it all, even though it does seem to be spotless gravel. bbs with a test, maybe sometime tonight.
They would not know anything about Tums, Col. It is a petstore, not a pharmacy. Tums is calcium carbonate tablet meant for heartburn and calcium deficiencies.
The hardness issue is an ongoing issue. The hardness levels change when you change your water with a different hardness level.
bigcol
10-06-2009, 12:37 AM
They would not know anything about Tums, Col. It is a petstore, not a pharmacy. Tums is calcium carbonate tablet meant for heartburn and calcium deficiencies.
The hardness issue is an ongoing issue. The hardness levels change when you change your water with a different hardness level.
Oh right, i would never have guessed that either. How did u figure out u could use something like that for hardness? I wouldnt even dream of putting something like that into my fish tank, even an empty 1. Obviously its ok to do it as u have proven its amazing some of the stuff u can learn over the net. Mick in my lfs said the hardness might never be a prob if i use the coral gravel we spoke about, even when i do a water change it shouldnt drop or raise much at all. I think i need to test some of this stuff 1st and see if it really works the way he said it does.
Anyway, all substrate is out of the tank, water went really cloudy white, so there was lots of dirt i couldnt see in there and i thought it was clean, So u were spot on Lupin it does hide lots we cant see, I done a 50% water change straight after i got the gavel out and today when i woke its clear as ice, gona do a test after my morning coffee (gotta love the coffee) and i'll post the results soon. Couldnt do it last night as i had to nip straight out then back here to help sort kids out.
bigcol
10-06-2009, 12:48 AM
I wasn't offended... I just wanted to emphasize that it's not experimental... Obviously, you're going to end up going with one solution or the other. If you check out my latest "Pond update" in the characins media lounge, you'll see how clear my water is. My fish are acting completely healthy and normal, and actually even better than before, now that I don't have a constant .5 ammonia level. I really think that this is the best way to raise pH and KH. I have to admit that I've never tried to do it any other way, but it was easy to measure, easy to mix, and easy to add, and is really simple to replace during water changes, because you add as much as you take out, and you can measure that easily by how much volume you remove. 25% of volume, add 25% of mix, etc. Also, it's cheap, as I said, and we're dealing with large volumes of water, so it's important to be economical.
Yeah ive looked up some of the ingredients for the mix and most are reasonably priced, we know i have an ammonia prob aswell as a ph so i think the best way is to test my hardness 1st then we go from there, i just wish i could have tested it last night or even now but i guess i will just have to wait a small while. I would like to try and cure the fish 1st aswell but not sure if it will work with the params being all over the place. I dont want to be shoving this and that in whilst treating them of an illness. I guess sometimes im a little impatient when it comes to doing things.
Oh right, i would never have guessed that either. How did u figure out u could use something like that for hardness? I wouldnt even dream of putting something like that into my fish tank, even an empty 1. Obviously its ok to do it as u have proven its amazing some of the stuff u can learn over the net. Mick in my lfs said the hardness might never be a prob if i use the coral gravel we spoke about, even when i do a water change it shouldnt drop or raise much at all. I think i need to test some of this stuff 1st and see if it really works the way he said it does.
Anyway, all substrate is out of the tank, water went really cloudy white, so there was lots of dirt i couldnt see in there and i thought it was clean, So u were spot on Lupin it does hide lots we cant see, I done a 50% water change straight after i got the gavel out and today when i woke its clear as ice, gona do a test after my morning coffee (gotta love the coffee) and i'll post the results soon. Couldnt do it last night as i had to nip straight out then back here to help sort kids out.
Hehe...Glad your tank cleared up very well. As for the Tums, I keep hundreds of snails, Col. Some of the snails I got had shell damage so I had to find options to remedy decalcification and decided to use Tums and Caltrate as a way to help fix their shells a bit as they grow. That's where I learned the hardness levels and calcium levels climb very easily with the calcium tablets.
bigcol
10-06-2009, 1:35 PM
God ive been running around all day, never stopped, got home in the end and heres the KH + GH readings.................... KH=5dkh,89.5ppm... GH=10dgh,179ppm. Lupin can you please tell me if thats good or bad as i aint got the foggiest. I gave the rtc's their 1st treatment too with the waterlife sterazin, i recall u asking what was in it Lupin, All it says on the tub is sterazin contains formaldehyde. Sorry there wasnt more info.
Anyway by the looks of the GH readings i have a hunch thats bad, the KH isnt too bad, so what can i do to resolve this??? it seems to be 1 thing after another atm lol.
so i wont be needing the coral gravel afterall, or could i still use it as i got half a sack off my lfs for free, well not exactly free as i do take alot of other fish into him when im changing stock of my other tank which in turn btw has exceptional water quality and there is also 3 baby cats in there too along with a wide range of others.
I was thinking about the tums aswell and im near sure we have a similar thing here called rennies, it is a product that is poss global aswell as tums but i havnt really seen them here in the uk, maybe as ive never needed them before so never looked or noticed. Ur snail scenario sounds like a great story though all the same.
Your KH is very low which means your water is soft although fortunately, it is not too soft but with your nitrate elevating easily due to the size and number of your fish, I'd still adjust the KH as necessary to stabilize the pH.
bigcol
10-07-2009, 12:56 AM
Ok so i do use the coral gravel lol, what should the kh read to get the ph levelling out? and will it harm the fish raising the KH giving thier current situation? heres me thinking the GH was a prob lol being so high 'n' all.
Im trying to find homes for the albino oscar and the channel cat i have, although the channel might just go back into the river as i suspect thats where he came from, there is hundreds of them in our rivers and he is pretty big for his age too.
bigcol
10-07-2009, 1:50 AM
Lupin could you please direct me as to what KH + GH levels im looking to achieve also what should the PH level be at for the most affective water conditions for my cats. I have about 1 3rd of coral gravel which is a 25K sack so its not alot but i think it will do to raise the KH levels, due to the illness my cats have i dont want to raise the levels too high which in turn might make the situation worse rather than better, correct me if im wrong though. I have read on the net through many other sites and forums that changing the KH + GH levels could do more harm than good to to certain south american species, it didnt specify what species though so thats why im asking you what levels you would recommend for the best water quality for my huge cats. Im considering putting all of the coral gravel into my tank, like i said it isnt alot and in time could do the trick as far as the KH is concerned but will it raise the GH also?
Im just running round in circles atm lol
This will take a lot of explaining. Here's a site that will address some of your questions.:)
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hardness.htm
bigcol
10-07-2009, 3:51 AM
Thanks Lupin, i take a look now, water params at the moment are.........PH=6.8 (the reason it has gone up could have something to do with taking the gravel out) Amonia=0.25.........nitrites=0.25.........nitrates =40ppm KH + GH are still the same, well i managed to get an extra drop into the KH before it turned so that 6dkh now and not 5.
Will keep you all updated.
Yeah that explains alot, cheers dude ;)
I went out on a hunch and put the coral gravel in the tank but in that article it says u can place it into external canisters, if i knew that i would have just put it in the sump lol theres always time to move it if the KH rises to high.
The crushed corals tend to increase the KH gradually instead of instantly hence why they are much easier to use than most chemicals and tablet supplements that contain calcium carbonate which increases both the pH and KH.
High nitrate can make your water acidic as it "eats" up the buffering properties of your tank water. This may be why you saw your pH elevating a bit due to slight improvement of water conditions after the gravel serving as nitrate trap has been removed from your tank.
bigcol
10-07-2009, 11:20 AM
The crushed corals tend to increase the KH gradually instead of instantly hence why they are much easier to use than most chemicals and tablet supplements that contain calcium carbonate which increases both the pH and KH.
High nitrate can make your water acidic as it "eats" up the buffering properties of your tank water. This may be why you saw your pH elevating a bit due to slight improvement of water conditions after the gravel serving as nitrate trap has been removed from your tank.
So do u think the coral gravel i have just put in will serve as i nitrate trap also?? or will it eliminate toxins as it leaches calcium?? or am i just way off the mark all together. Im learning as we go here so u have to bare with me, that site was very interesting though and opened my eyes slightly (think i need more coffee haha)
bigcol
10-07-2009, 3:31 PM
Ok now i dont know if i should be worried or not, ive just done a water test of all params and now the GH=12gdh..214.8ppm, KH=4dgh..71.6ppm. this is what has me thinking the most as the PH=7.6, Amonia=0, Nitrites=0.25, Nitrates=40ppm.
Lupin or any1 else tell me im flapping (worrying) for nothing!!!!!
Im thinking that once the coral gravel starts to raise the KH then the PH will drop slowly by the time the KH has reached 10dgh, right or wrong?
Also by the time the KH reaches 10dgh then the GH would have dropped to 10dgh, right or wrong?
Or should i do a 50% water change to drop the params then let it deal with itself lol help help help hahaha
Calcium carbonate elevates the pH, not drop. It may be your nitrate. What is your nitrate level on tap water?
As for crushed corals trapping wastes, as long as they are kept under circulation, they will not serve as a trap pretty much if the organic matter trapped, are removed and prevented from accumulating.
bigcol
10-07-2009, 6:41 PM
nitrate on the tap water is 10ppm, and the gravel gets vacumed by me and churned by the fish when they swim around. As its now coral gravel and not much in then the nitrates will most probably drop yeah? Dont mean to keep rambling on matey, im just learning all this. Maybe this is a lesson learned, before u go into fish keeping make sure u go over board with the knowledge side of things 1st haha.
Nah, no worries, Col. I don't mind helping at all. It happens and it always will.
bigcol
10-08-2009, 12:33 AM
Ok ty Lupin, updates everyday anyway, i had a small panic last night as tne params seemed out of sorts and then my pump stopped working lol fun and games. Now the params seem to be levelling out apart from the nitrates, aint gona do the kh + gh today. I dont know weither my fish were happy or stressing, the rtc's were in 1 corner huddled together but the rest were swimming all over, very active. Im gona try them with some squid in a min and ive gave them their 2nd treatment of sterazin, fingers crossed ey.
markx2005
10-08-2009, 12:08 PM
good luck m8 think u done the trick
bigcol
10-08-2009, 1:22 PM
good luck m8 think u done the trick
Was Lupin's advice that done the trick m8 along with ur gogle skills, google really hates me haha. We aint out the woods yet though, they still not eating much, 1 of them not at all so fingers crossed for him/her ey. I know it sounds a bit nasty but i still have another baby rtc and 2 rtcxtsn hybrids, just got an asian redtail cat too that im picking up on sat. I reckon the experience ive gained from this thread will most defo help speed the cycle in their pond up, when its finally built anyway ;)
markx2005
10-08-2009, 5:17 PM
so when we getting pond on the go
bigcol
10-09-2009, 1:04 AM
so when we getting pond on the go
Soon i hope m8, gna need it pretty quick but dont wana rush it, still planning a few tweaks. U either get it right 1st time or not at all ;)
Back on topic, my ph=7.0, weyhey u say haha, amonia=0.25, nitrites=0.25, nitrates=20-40ppm, couldnt tell with the nitrates as the color wasnt exact to the chart but it did still look like 40ppm. KH=7dgh, GH=11dgh. so it looks to me like all params are levelling out, also the red sores on the rtc's have cleared so the treatment is working, they arent breathing as heavy either, still not eating but i suspect earthworms will get them munching again.
:nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :nilly: :popcorn:
Good to hear things are improving!
bigcol
10-09-2009, 2:34 AM
Good to hear things are improving!
Great news ey Lupin, i couldnt believe my eyes this morn when i seen all the sores gone from the skin, he was also coming to the glass wanting a stroke off me which i thought was great, so i quickly washed my hands and serilized them and gave him a nice long stroke, it was asif he was saying thank you for saving my ass haha. Just need em to eat so im off to the angling shop today to get a boat load of earth worms for them. Im suprised at how much you know about fish illness Lupin, it must have took a few years to get to where you are now. Thanks ever so much for all your help matey :cool-1::cheers:
I will still keep you updated here if anything changes, better or worse ;)
bigcol
10-11-2009, 10:46 AM
Quick update on water params and quality also how the rtc's are improving ;).
Tank temp=25c, water quality looks to be very clean and the results speak for themselves. KH=7dgh, GH=14dgh (which i think is way too high), PH=7.6, Amonia=0.25, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=40ppm. Gona do a 30% water change soon and syphon the gravel, stir it up a bit. Hopefully the GH will drop some after the water change.
My rtc's still arnt eating much but their breathing has improved lots, they arnt gasping any more, 1 strange thing i have noticed is they allways seem to stay to the right side of the tank at all times, all huddled up together only the 2 smaller rtc's swim around at night, aswell as the pacus and the marble cat but big fellow seems to just stay in that corner of the tank constantly which is starting to worry me a bit, in a lazy kind of way. The earth worms didnt seem to tempt them into eating either, although they are still under treatment and the last dose will be the 15th oct. Hopefully i will see a bigger improvemet in the way the fish stop being so lazy and actually hunt at night instead of sitting around watching the TV :naughty: :ROFL:
Glad to hear everything is well, Col. Always nice to hear positive updates!:thumbsup:
bigcol
10-14-2009, 3:27 AM
Quick update, rtc's ate a few muscles last night, tested the water this morn and i have a nitrite spike, PH=7.0, amonia=0.25, nitrite=1.0, nitrate=40ppm. Not quite sure why the nitrites have spiked but im assuming it has something to do with the BB doing its job as it shoukd be, maybe in a few days after another water change the params might read diff.
Glad its working out for you ,
regards