View Full Version : Substrate for Rays
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 8:39 PM
Hello, fishy folks!
I'm finding comflicting or non-exisitent information on substrate for rays. Though it's obvious and easy to find the tip that the substrate needs to be soft and smooth, there's not a lot more on the subject out there. Here are a few questions that occured to me:
1. Is a bare aquarium bottom really better than any substrate for rays? Or do they prefer to be able to burrow?
2. If using sand, should it be a natural sand? Manufactured? What materials should be avoided?
3. What color is best for substrate with rays? Does this vary by species?
4. How deep should substrate be?
5. Are there substrate that assist in maintaining the correct pH for rays like there are for other species?
And also, a non-substrate question:
6. Are rays escape artists? Should a margin of air be kept between the water level and the top of the tank?
Thanks in advance to all for the answers to these questions. Books just don't ship fast enough to keep up with my questions. (I have a couple on order.) If you have any web sites to tide me over (pun intended) until they arrive, please let me know that as well.
Hello, fishy folks!
I'm finding comflicting or non-exisitent information on substrate for rays. Though it's obvious and easy to find the tip that the substrate needs to be soft and smooth, there's not a lot more on the subject out there. Here are a few questions that occured to me:
1. Is a bare aquarium bottom really better than any substrate for rays? Or do they prefer to be able to burrow?
They prefer to be able to burrow themselves.
2. If using sand, should it be a natural sand? Manufactured? What materials should be avoided?
Natural would be ideal.
3. What color is best for substrate with rays? Does this vary by species?
The color that matches your ray best. However, it does not really matter.
4. How deep should substrate be?
At least 2 inches.
5. Are there substrate that assist in maintaining the correct pH for rays like there are for other species?
Yes, They are called Volcanic Gravel. & they come in 3 types. High PH, Neutral, & Low PH. However, its not really mend for rays as your water would be clouldy.
And also, a non-substrate question:
6. Are rays escape artists? Should a margin of air be kept between the water level and the top of the tank?
In an Open Lake/River.........YES!
Not necessary.
Thanks in advance to all for the answers to these questions. Books just don't ship fast enough to keep up with my questions. (I have a couple on order.) If you have any web sites to tide me over (pun intended) until they arrive, please let me know that as well.
Sure hope that helps.
BTW, what ray are you planning to keep?
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 9:12 PM
Sure hope that helps.
BTW, what ray are you planning to keep?
The one that really catches my fancy is the Leopoldi. :-)
The one that really catches my fancy is the Leopoldi. :-)
So i see you are HORNY for these.... :grinno: :grinno: :grinno:
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 9:24 PM
Be still my heart... ;-)
Be still my heart... ;-)
hahahaha
Found the right one yet???
:cheers:
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 9:41 PM
I'm working on getting the perfect habitat together first. That tends to be my modus operandi; I spend a lot of time getting the tank or pond together before I start seriously looking at individual specimens.
My tentative plan for this to set up a 55g I have coming in this week (it'll probably take me a month or two to get everything the way I want it) and get a small juvenille ray.
I have a new 100g planned for set up by the first quarter of 2006. I'd transfer the ray from the 55g to the 100g and then convert the 55g to African Cichlids by doing a good cleaning, and adding some rock and additives to the water in the 55g.
Then again, by the time I move the ray to the 100g, I may have a whole new plan for the 55g. You know how that goes. :rolleyes:
I'm working on getting the perfect habitat together first. That tends to be my modus operandi; I spend a lot of time getting the tank or pond together before I start seriously looking at individual specimens.
My tentative plan for this to set up a 55g I have coming in this week (it'll probably take me a month or two to get everything the way I want it) and get a small juvenille ray.
I have a new 100g planned for set up by the first quarter of 2006. I'd transfer the ray from the 55g to the 100g and then convert the 55g to African Cichlids by doing a good cleaning, and adding some rock and additives to the water in the 55g.
Then again, by the time I move the ray to the 100g, I may have a whole new plan for the 55g. You know how that goes. :rolleyes:
Very detailed planning.....
How many rays do you intent to house in your 100g tank???
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 9:48 PM
I'd like to measure my success with one before I get another, but if all goes well I would consider two and see if I can get them to breed. I've had success in breeding a lot of species, but rays would definitely be something new. Then again, for two to be really happy, wouldn't I really need a larger set-up than 100g?
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 9:51 PM
As for my plan for the 55g so far, I'm looking at "Tahitian Moon Sand" as a substrate. My initial research about the danger of in-tank heaters has me looking at the Tetratec systems and their large power filters with built in heaters. I'm also considering a variable powerhead to really keep things moving. I haven't read a lot about lighting yet. Any suggestions?
I'd like to measure my success with one before I get another, but if all goes well I would consider two and see if I can get them to breed. I've had success in breeding a lot of species, but rays would definitely be something new. Then again, for two to be really happy, wouldn't I really need a larger set-up than 100g?
Well, just make sure your water is right (PH levels 6.3 - 7.3) have strong current.
Feed them regularly & you should be find.
As for breeding, you can try,,,,,,but not easy my friend.
zhuangsw
07-10-2005, 10:30 PM
So i see you are HORNY for these.... :grinno: :grinno: :grinno:
basket horse!!! cum post this kind of picture let us steam to the max only...
argh! Not only him le, anyone see this kind of pic sure want!
btw spryandspringy, pdr are one of the easy and hardier rays to keep. Like any other fishes, they are really active with warmer waters. PH wise, you got it from tyson. Which part of the world do you stay in? There is a thread in classified here, a seller from the states that sell beautiful Pdr. Have you check with him whether you can get any from him?
tyson
07-10-2005, 10:45 PM
basket horse!!! cum post this kind of picture let us steam to the max only...
argh! Not only him le, anyone see this kind of pic sure want!
Hahahahahhaaha :grinno: :grinno:
I like to make members here HORNY mah. :headbang2 :headbang2
Off course with proper care to ensure they last for future generations to come. :)
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 11:21 PM
While I certainly cannot espouse any sort of romantic attachment to my fish, I can certainly understand your level of... um... enthusiasm.
What about the lighting question? In an indoor set-up, what do you suggest? You mentioned water movement; would a good power filter and an additional powerhead be enough?
redtailfool
07-10-2005, 11:21 PM
As for my plan for the 55g so far, I'm looking at "Tahitian Moon Sand" as a substrate. My initial research about the danger of in-tank heaters has me looking at the Tetratec systems and their large power filters with built in heaters. I'm also considering a variable powerhead to really keep things moving. I haven't read a lot about lighting yet. Any suggestions?
Dont use tahitian moon sand .They contain silica which is abrasive and will irritate the rays bottom. Use Estes Marine sand instead.
spryandspringy
07-10-2005, 11:29 PM
AHA! Thanks for the tip! I'll avoid the moon sand. Does the Estes brand sand contain biological matter designed for a salt water environment or is it not a "live" sand? Is it commonly available? What colors does it come in?
redtailfool
07-10-2005, 11:32 PM
Its just fine sand. It can be used for salt and fresh with no problems. I know they come in a variety of colors.. white, black, green etc...
While I certainly cannot espouse any sort of romantic attachment to my fish, I can certainly understand your level of... um... enthusiasm.
What about the lighting question? In an indoor set-up, what do you suggest? You mentioned water movement; would a good power filter and an additional powerhead be enough?
No, worries.....hope to see your tank, set up, & ray soon.
Lighting: To me, strong lighting works well as it helps tan the rays. Hence, they develope better & much brighter pigment.
My ray are all kept outdoors and they get the full 12 hours of sunlight....SUNrise - SUNset.
Sure hope that helps.
:cheers: :cheers:
I buy sand from the local pool supply store. Pool Filter sand.. I was told to look for Silica-Free, but I just asked for the largest, smoothest grain possible.. $10 for a 50lb bag.. I believe it contained Silica, but the bag had very little information about it. I rinsed very thoroughly, removing any fine particle that I could. I also siphoned 2-3 times after adding it to tank.
The rays love to burrow themselves and 'spit' around in search of worms. I also noticed that it seems to help with stress levels when they can burrow comfortably. Whever I transfer a ray into a new tank with that sand, it immediately buries itself for a while. Heres a Clip (http://www.xoticaquatix.com/AntennaRay1.MOV) of my atenna ray sucking through the sand after a ghost shrimp..
Hope that helps some..
Miles
I do... most 50g tanks will come with a nice area underneath the stand. Make a sump if at all possible. The extra bio load will help with the tremendous ammonia a ray will put out, along with the convenience of heating it up apposed to the tank where rays will get burned. Kinda stupid for such intelligent beings but hey if whales beach themselves and humans jump out of planes.... whatever.
Miles
07-11-2005, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the heads up.. What is the issue with the pool filter sand? It seems to work great. Much better than any of the other commercially available 'play sands' that I had tested.
spryandspringy
07-11-2005, 2:19 PM
I went on a supply reconnaissance mission. LFS only has day-glo orange Estes sand. :22_yikes:
Found a place online that seems to have a decent price, but the shipping is probably more than the sand since it weighs so much. I need to wait for "the fish guy" to be in the store and find out if he can order some for me. From what I'm hearing from you folks, black would be the best choice for a Leopoldi, huh?
Also, what products/techniques do you use to keep the pH in the ranges they need? I'm thinking my old stand-by of adding driftwood to lower the pH would be a bad idea, as I want the habitat to be as smooth as possible. Thoughts?
Only a thought as it seems. Lets first point out that rays descend from their salt-water counter parts. Salt water contains a high amount of minerals making it hard. Even though these fish are from water that "tends" to be soft in that area, they seem to adhere to the natural source they have not fully evolved from. I could be wrong but i do nothing to our 7.5 water with a 225 hardness and they far well. Somebody tell me my opinion is wrong now. :screwy: <--Waldo
as you already said, it has silica in it, which is very fine and very sharp and will cause mnor abrasions to the underside of your rays, as well as other possible negative effects on the gills, which can allow a bacterial infection to penetrate under the slime coat, which probably will kill your rays. Watch them for any signs of red-ness on their undersides.
Better to use either river sand or Estes sand, which is coated, or fine smooth gravel. Easiest of all is no substrate at all, Rays get used to it very quickly and it is the easiest to keep clean.
hth
Ahh.. Thanks Again.
I believe it has Silica in it, but the bag did not say whether it did or not. I asked for the largest, smoothest grain they had available, and I did everything I could to remove any fine particles.. The bag had no specifics on where the sand came from, or how much Silica it contains.
I have dabbled with a number of silica play sands, available at Lowe's and what not.. None of them were to my liking, as they all seemed very abrasive. This filter sand however is much smoother. I am not saying that it will work, just saying that it is alot smoother than Silica-based sands.
Been watching closely the undersides and the behavior of the rays since we introduced the new sand. They have made a positive improvement, from what I could tell.. However, this could just be temporary as you said. Can the slime coat be worn away, and the ray still have normal behavior? What should I look for in the gill area?.. Abnormal breathing, redness? Anything else to watch for? Thanks in Advance..
Well we have been using this particular sand in just 2 seperate tanks. Most of the time rays are placed in a pool for QT before being placed into a display tank, which would likely contain a substrate. The 2 rays that have been in this sand have been enjoying life for about 3 or more weeks now.. Eating regularly, and showing no signs of distress. They really seem to enjoy sifting through the sand, in search of food. Hopefully I am not killing them with kindness..
Thanks for your help DW!
Miles
PS. This is a great thread, as I have seen and asked this question many times. Perhaps some links to wholesalers of Estes sand and other viable sands could be posted?
pH stability is important. If you use chemicals or buffers to adjust the pH, you can cause a 'rollercoaster' effect with each water change. Rays are very adaptable, and should adapt to whatever your water source is. Unless you are trying to breed them, I would stick with the most consistant water quality available. Thats just my opinion ;)
spryandspringy
07-11-2005, 3:14 PM
pH stability is important. If you use chemicals or buffers to adjust the pH, you can cause a 'rollercoaster' effect with each water change. Rays are very adaptable, and should adapt to whatever your water source is. Unless you are trying to breed them, I would stick with the most consistant water quality available. Thats just my opinion ;)
Interesting... My focus has been on African Cichlids for the past couple of years, and I've worked out several techniques for fostering and maintaining the correct pH for those critters. I guess since it's so important to them, I'd kind of forgotten how well many other species can adapt. I'm sure there are also those of you out there who would say that I don't have to be so picky about the pH for my cichlids as well, but I've had such great success with them, that I'm not going to mess with the formula now. ;)
spryandspringy
07-11-2005, 4:50 PM
mine too
:)
save the money and don;t bother with the chemicals or buffers. If you should decide to adjust your water do it in a seperate container so that if you eff it up no harm is done. Never add chems direct to the tank ( except meds)
The only chemical you should add on a very regular basis is good old clean H2O
It's very interesting that this is your opinion as well, since you're the "Ray Guy". ;)
Tis the latest Fad... everyones doing it. :shakehead
Miles
07-11-2005, 10:14 PM
Interesting... My focus has been on African Cichlids for the past couple of years, and I've worked out several techniques for fostering and maintaining the correct pH for those critters. I guess since it's so important to them, I'd kind of forgotten how well many other species can adapt. I'm sure there are also those of you out there who would say that I don't have to be so picky about the pH for my cichlids as well, but I've had such great success with them, that I'm not going to mess with the formula now. ;)
I would have to say that raising the pH and keeping the water hard is a much easier task than making it soft, and acidic.. The problems you will have is with your pH crashing due to low levels of alkalinity. Africans also will suffer greatly from a low pH, when I've noticed S.American fish seem to adapt quite well. I often keep wild-caught Tetras in a pH of around 7.8, when you likely couldn't keep africans in a neutral pH.
Either way, if you mess with your water, you will be changing SOME paramater with each water change. Unless you are incredibely anal and precise about pre-mixing water and matching paramaters, it's not worth the trouble. Get a Python, keep nitrates at 0, and keep everything 'consistant'.. You'll be alright :)
If you are trying to breed a specific fish, and pH plays a great variable in the success of inducing them to spawn.. Then by all means should the water quality be altered, but only temporarily for spawning, IMO.
Hasta,
Miles
PS.. Is that uhhh uhmm, a Texas Cichlid in your avatar? hahaha... :)
spryandspringy
07-12-2005, 12:53 PM
PS.. Is that uhhh uhmm, a Texas Cichlid in your avatar? hahaha... :)
Gee, I never would have thought of that.
:rofl:
spryandspringy
07-14-2005, 8:02 PM
Well, I hope you folks know what you're doing, as I just spent over $60.00 on sand -- mostly shipping. (Say that to anyone but an aquarist, and they'll think you're nuts!) I got the Estes Marine Sand in black. My future ray should be quite content. :grinno:
Crisroom
07-15-2005, 12:22 AM
I first went with a 6X2X2 for my pair of motoros. Then placed them in a 4X2.5X18" to see if that would do. Much to my surprise it did. I am now expecting my 4th litter in about a week. The smaller tank seems to be working just fine. They will actually to laps in the tank. It's crazy to watch.
swhiting
07-16-2005, 6:05 PM
Well I skimmed thru the posts so I hope I'm not repeating anything.
Hello fellow texan, at the zoo I have managed to get my motoros to breed, not too hard, right?
The adults are kept on regular Texblast, no problems. Do they need substrate? my opinion, no. Babies i believe should be kept on bare glass, they can easily ingest small pieces of sand or gravel.
Also we do have a display in another building with about 12 wild motoros on play sand and they seem to like it, when they burrow its pretty tough to see them sometimes.
I also have a pair of leopoldi, they are kept in a bare bottom tank with no problems. For the display gravel is sort of a given, but when caring for them behind the scenes I prefer no gravel with my rays.
As far as chemistry, we used well water, which is harder than tap, they do fine. Temps are kept around 77 to 80. Basically just feed them well and do plenty of water changes.
I mentioned we are both in Texas, well we have permits to allow us to keep these and other illegal animals, so if you can get them into the state, great, but just so you know, they are technically illegal to own in the state of Texas. It sucks but too many irresponsible people have been dumping their exotics in the US for too long and damn it if Texas doesn't get cold enough to kill them off in the wild.
Good luck! and keep us updated.
Tucc185
07-22-2005, 11:11 AM
Just curious: would sand from a lake/pond bottom that had been well rinsed work well? I have used that estes stuff and personally I find it is more annoying than useful. It takes about 2 weeks just for it to settle down and stop congealing on the water's surface. Of course my experience is with salt tanks, it may fare a little better in FW, but that stuff clogged my filters for months. I have used lake bottom sand from NH with success in smaller tanks with fish like geophagus, which like conditions pretty similar to rays anyways. It doesnt seem to have an effect on pH at all