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Kaliedoscope
08-16-2010, 11:05 PM
Hi, I was in the forum discussing the possibility of a rd/severum hybrid, and it brought up the subject of my fish, which I believed was a Convict x Severum. Nobody believed me, so I'm posting this up here with more pictures to see what you guys think. glenbo says its possibly a con x sajica, though I would think that if this was the case, it would have a less sloped forehead (as sajica males have a nuchal hump) the fish in question is an obvious male. All i know is that it came from a tank with a paired convict and severum. Heres pictures before discussion:

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Con%20Sev/IMG_0455.jpg

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Con%20Sev/IMG_0459.jpg

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Image038.jpg

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Con%20Sev/IMG_0457.jpg

The blue colour is from the lights, he pretty much fades between grey and black. He has a definite bar in the middle, like a sajica, though he also has the severum bar on his back end/tail (it is much more obvious when he's in a better mood, i.e. not being photographed, he tends to fade out when you're making him nervous)- this and his body shape are the main things that make me think he's a severum cross. So what do you guys think? Does anyone else here have a cichlid that's crossed with a severum? I believe this to be possible, though many people on here seem to think that it's not. But my question is, if thats not what he is, then what could he be?

Also, MFKr's from oklahoma, do any of you have or know where to find brothers/sisters of this fish? I got him from leanns' place on kelly in edmond, the guy that brought them in said they were the result of a convict and severum, so thats' all the proof I have. I have never seen a sajica or heard of anyone having them in oklahoma.

So what do you guys think? is a heros/cryptoheros cross possible? what is he?

By the way, heres a picture of a sajica and severum for reference. Black bar in the middle is reminiscent of saj but the body shape is very similar to a severum no?

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Con%20Sev/sajica.jpg

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y370/Cmswanson256/Con%20Sev/severumgreen.jpg

I will try to get a good picture of the sev bar on his tail if people are interested in figuring this out with me

thefishmaster1
08-16-2010, 11:06 PM
idk

Hoyo12
08-16-2010, 11:13 PM
idk
Good answer!


Anyway, by the looks of the face, it appears to be a Jack Dempsey x Convict hybrid. I do not believe that it is a Severum hybrid.

Kaliedoscope
08-16-2010, 11:28 PM
hah lol yeah I thought that added a lot too. I'm not too sure about the possibility that it's a JD x COn cross though, I believe that would produce a more torpedo shaped fish than a convict; my fish is a little more disk-shaped and heavy bodied than a con. From what i've found on the net, a JD/con would look a little more like this
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=175801&stc=1&d=1203536177

Or it would at least have a dot in the middle at some point like a JD instead of a bar
this guy's pretty much looked like this all his life, only his fins have developed and gotten more showy.

Btw Hoyo, Knives are some of my favorite fish. I am envious of your collection, If i had those here I wouldn't do anything but watch them

glenbo
08-17-2010, 10:04 AM
From the pics i can see a definite 'T' but also looks liek some JD pearling, and you said it has bigger teeth than a normal Con, JD's have that whereas Severums do not :)

Camphilophus
08-17-2010, 3:27 PM
looks like convict X cryptohero to me

Kaliedoscope
08-17-2010, 4:07 PM
what do you mean cryptohero?
I just mentioned that before as the genus convicts were in formally, kind of an attempt to equate it with heros

tiddlywinks
08-18-2010, 3:34 AM
i think its a normal convict with a lil mutation from being breed with its siblings

Chrisplosion
02-18-2011, 3:49 AM
Lol, theres no severum in this fish.

Water
02-18-2011, 11:06 AM
Lol, theres no severum in this fish.

x2

FishingOut
02-18-2011, 5:03 PM
Very very rarely will ANYTHING from South America hybridize. IF they do chances are it will be within its genus.

Genetics do not allow south american fish to breed like this unless somebody out there is doing some DNA splicing.

Ive heard there is a single ancestor of almost all central american fish, which is why many can hybridize. The cichlids that didnt come from this ancestor are around the panama and lower.

My take is its just an oddly shaped convict, nothing strange about that considering convicts breeding histories. Very well could have Sajica, but that would be impossible for anyone to say for sure.

Kaliedoscope
02-18-2011, 10:02 PM
lol yeah (thats my fish)
Ive had him for years as a severum hybrid, he came from a pair of green sev and a convict, so sorry, no one's changed my mind yet. Its not a particularly great lookin fish but to me he really does look like a severum in body shape. His deceased brother did as well. I'm just saying its possible, because ive seen it

cyberhog05
02-18-2011, 11:06 PM
hah lol yeah I thought that added a lot too. I'm not too sure about the possibility that it's a JD x COn cross though, I believe that would produce a more torpedo shaped fish than a convict; my fish is a little more disk-shaped and heavy bodied than a con. From what i've found on the net, a JD/con would look a little more like this
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=175801&stc=1&d=1203536177

Or it would at least have a dot in the middle at some point like a JD instead of a bar
this guy's pretty much looked like this all his life, only his fins have developed and gotten more showy.

Btw Hoyo, Knives are some of my favorite fish. I am envious of your collection, If i had those here I wouldn't do anything but watch them

I have a Demsey x convict and it doesnt resemble this much at all. Mine took the Demsey shape with some Convict stripes. Very good looking fish IMO. My lfs breed convicts with GT's and Demseys. When my little tank clears I will snap a pic. I just changed the sub out to sand from one of my other tanks.

Chrisplosion
02-19-2011, 2:38 AM
lol yeah (thats my fish)
Ive had him for years as a severum hybrid, he came from a pair of green sev and a convict, so sorry, no one's changed my mind yet. Its not a particularly great lookin fish but to me he really does look like a severum in body shape. His deceased brother did as well. I'm just saying its possible, because ive seen it

So because it has a severum like body that means it has severum in it right, just like how blood parrots have severum them? Severums cannot hybridize nor can any South American Cichlid (aside from Festae) hybridize with any Central American Cichlid.

Unless you have a proof of it heritage, you just come off as a stubborn person who refuses to believe the truth.

Kaliedoscope
02-20-2011, 1:23 AM
Chris, my point was that neither of the opposing sides in this debate have proof, so we'd better just drop it. And truthfully, equating this to the severum guess about blood parrots diminishes your point a little. I'm not trying to be mean, just saying wierd stuff does happen.

For example,

Apteronotus albifrons X Mormyrus rume proboscirostris as a cross should be scientifically impossible, yet here it is on segrest's stocklist.
http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.viewgroup&groupID=115

Just because something dosen't happen dosen't mean its impossible,
and just because something is impossible dosen't mean that it dosen't happen.

I hope we can all drop this issue now : )

Kaliedoscope
02-20-2011, 1:24 AM
I have a Demsey x convict and it doesnt resemble this much at all. Mine took the Demsey shape with some Convict stripes. Very good looking fish IMO. My lfs breed convicts with GT's and Demseys. When my little tank clears I will snap a pic. I just changed the sub out to sand from one of my other tanks.


And nice! post them as a new thread in the cichlid hybrids section

Kaliedoscope
02-20-2011, 1:25 AM
*i think there was someone on here asking about the possiblity of GT x Convict cuz they had a pair or something, it might be helpful to them if you found that link too, jus a suggestion

FishingOut
02-20-2011, 12:49 PM
Chris, my point was that neither of the opposing sides in this debate have proof, so we'd better just drop it. And truthfully, equating this to the severum guess about blood parrots diminishes your point a little. I'm not trying to be mean, just saying wierd stuff does happen.

For example,

Apteronotus albifrons X Mormyrus rume proboscirostris as a cross should be scientifically impossible, yet here it is on segrest's stocklist.
http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.viewgroup&groupID=115

Just because something dosen't happen dosen't mean its impossible,
and just because something is impossible dosen't mean that it dosen't happen.

I hope we can all drop this issue now : )

Anything is possible in magic world of Fishland, where science holds no barings, and rumors run rampant like a drunk naked Swedish man at a Mexican soccer game. :screwy:
A "pair" and viable offspring are COMPLETELY different situations. No matter how much you want to have a severum hybrid "to be the only one in the world who has ever had one" its not going to happen. The proof is in the pudding, Find legit proof of a sev hybrid, or any SA CA hybrid, which means its impossible which means it does not happen. This is reality, not "Fishland" theories.
"Weird" stuff rarely happens in this world, It only means you dont understand/comprehend what happened.

Chrisplosion
02-20-2011, 4:09 PM
Anything is possible in magic world of Fishland, where science holds no barings, and rumors run rampant like a drunk naked Swedish man at a Mexican soccer game. :screwy:
A "pair" and viable offspring are COMPLETELY different situations. No matter how much you want to have a severum hybrid "to be the only one in the world who has ever had one" its not going to happen. The proof is in the pudding, Find legit proof of a sev hybrid, or any SA CA hybrid, which means its impossible which means it does not happen. This is reality, not "Fishland" theories.
"Weird" stuff rarely happens in this world, It only means you dont understand/comprehend what happened.

This :iagree:

beantickler
02-20-2011, 4:55 PM
I crossed a Severum with a giraffe about a year ago... Then I took my Girafferum and crossed it with a banana... You should see it! WOW

Kaliedoscope
02-21-2011, 4:55 PM
:screwy:
No matter how much you want to have a severum hybrid "to be the only one in the world who has ever had one" its not going to happen. .

SLLLOOOOW DOWN man.... Chill.
You're taking this waay to seriously.
I wrote a much more bombastic reply, but I accidentally backspaced and deleted it while putting in a few of :screwy: these.

I've had this fish for almost eleven years now, so
truthfully,
I really, really don't care what species he is.

People were already discussing the possibility of severum hybrids on another forum. I mentioned my fish and several people wanted to see pics

so i made this thread.

I didn't really get much of a response from people so I've just been playing devils advocate in this conversation. Something about how "sure" everybody seems makes it just not seem right. : P

:chillpill:

Water
02-21-2011, 5:10 PM
Something about how "sure" everybody seems makes it just not seem right. : P



LOL You posted a thread, and people responded. Your fish has no severum in it. Case closed:D

Kaliedoscope
02-21-2011, 7:25 PM
thats what I was saying! we don't need to keep arguing

tiddlywinks
02-21-2011, 9:11 PM
looks like a convict with a pearl or two.

Psuedofire
02-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Sounds like a crack head fish! What kind of "rocks" do you use in your "Tanks"?

Kaliedoscope
02-22-2011, 8:02 PM
Sounds like a crack head fish! What kind of "rocks" do you use in your "Tanks"?


what are you referring to?

Psuedofire
02-23-2011, 1:59 AM
Ok bad joke, I am saying your hard to take serious. People are offering you information, but your just throwing your opinion out there and not listening to them based on your bias. Read this paper published by the U of Nebraska, or at least the intro
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=ichthynicar

The article explains Central American cichlid geographical distribution on p 169.
I know this does not cover your exact situation but it does have some great info to give you some background.

Ok, now after getting some solid info out of the way, hybridization involve two species that have descended from a common ancestor which in terms will likely possess DNA that have close similarity within the base pair sequences. The amount of which the species are related can be determined by how close DNA base pair sequences match. In this case, Heros severus and Amatitlania nigrofasciata have derived from common ancestry as all fish have, but geological barriers have had an effect on the way the have evolved to adapt to the area they live in now. Being from different climates has had an effect on the severums ancestry as well as the convict which today possess different DNA structure which will not allow a viable ester bond to connect the two DNA polymers in the correct genetic formation. The degree of hybridization is proportional to the degree of similarity between the molecules of DNA from the two species. There is strong evidence to denote your claim that this is severum x convict. The physical apearence of your hybrid does not match any charactaristics in my opinion of a severum ( I have had many). I am just wondering how do explain the pearls? Severum sure do not have them!

shane2sweet1
02-23-2011, 7:24 AM
Very interesting reading...
I have no experience with American Cichlids, but find reading these threads interesting. I have African Cichlids and was under the assumption that I had an all male tank until recently I saw my male Nimbo Livingstonii trying to breed my Red Zebra (which I thought was a dude, but apparently not). Now she didn't hold the eggs for much more than a few days and then she spit them out. Now I don't know much about hybrids and don't know if this is even something possibly. He might try to fertilize her eggs but that doesn't mean he can fertilize them. Who knows anything about anything, isn't that the problem with hybrids, that's I'm saying is who knows because none of its natural.

Chrisplosion
02-23-2011, 4:20 PM
Very interesting reading...
I have no experience with American Cichlids, but find reading these threads interesting. I have African Cichlids and was under the assumption that I had an all male tank until recently I saw my male Nimbo Livingstonii trying to breed my Red Zebra (which I thought was a dude, but apparently not). Now she didn't hold the eggs for much more than a few days and then she spit them out. Now I don't know much about hybrids and don't know if this is even something possibly. He might try to fertilize her eggs but that doesn't mean he can fertilize them. Who knows anything about anything, isn't that the problem with hybrids, that's I'm saying is who knows because none of its natural.

Actually hybridizing is a natural thing, contrary to popular belief it does indeed happen in nature. Maybe not to scale of a flowerhorn or blood parrot but you will find hybrids in nature.

You male can try fertilize the eggs but buts its all a matter of will the eggs take. I don't know much about African hybrids but I don't think it will work.

Psuedofire
02-23-2011, 4:31 PM
Hybridization is natural in nature but it is fairly rare in animal species. For plants, that's another story. Your red zebra is mbuna and the livingstonii is haplochromis, they will not be able to reproduce together. Most mbuna I am familiar with and have kept are able to hybridize with each other but it never produced anything that looked good from the fry that survived in the tanks. As for hap species hybridizing with other haps i am not sure what works. Aulonacara species will hybridize easily as well.