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doods
12-26-2010, 12:43 AM
Hi guys! I have this case were my friend arowana died. It all started when I came to feed the fish because my friend went on vacation so I have to take care of it. It was the 2nd time I feed the fish because I was checking on it every 2 days, the 2nd time I had notice that there were broken glass scattered on the sand floor. I quickly pulled the plug for the water heater and scoop the glass out of the water. I don't know when the fish broke the heater, because if it was after I visited, then it has been 2 days that the water heater is plugged in maybe electrocuting the arowana.

now after the discovery of the broken heater, the fish still ate when I came back for it after 2 days, so I checked everything and brought a new heater for the fish, after 2 days I came back and shock to discover the arowana is dead and floating in the tank.

My question is what cause the death of the arowana?
1. Did the fish died of electrocution? if so why did it take a long time for it to take effect?
2. Did the arowana accidentally swallowed some of the glass while it was swallowing the food from the bottom floor of the tank? because I'm not 100% sure that I scooped up all the glass out, I was thinking maybe some tiny glass got inhaled while swallowing the food and may cause digestion or internal problem with the arowana.
3. Are there components on the water heater that may cause water be harmful and even fatal to fish? I had read that the water heater has a component called polymeric filler and I googled polymeric and it says its harmful to fish. Need to know if this is true and if any other component of the heater can cause water problems.

I need to explain to my friend when he gets back the cause of the arowana death.

thank in advance guys.

zenyoungkoh
12-26-2010, 12:46 AM
I think the aro ate some glass, and cut his digestion organs resulting in a fatal internal bleeding

Saterus
12-26-2010, 2:44 AM
I would suspect he swallowed glass as well but you never know what might have happened with the current in the water. I got shocked by several tanks at the LFS, broken heaters, exposed wires on hoods, etc. Never had a fish in one of those tanks die but I heard stories of large plecos and pacus dying from broken heaters. Some were a day or to after the heater was removed.
Dunno what killed them, just that they happened to be dead right after the heater broke.

Miguel
12-26-2010, 3:23 AM
fish do not get electrocuted, since they have no contact with the ground.

it is the same with birds in electric wires.

We get eletrocuted because we have our feet on the ground and the current passes through us.

yodaLBC
12-26-2010, 3:54 AM
fish do not get electrocuted, since they have no contact with the ground.

it is the same with birds in electric wires.

We get eletrocuted because we have our feet on the ground and the current passes through us.

x2

its probably just the temp change!

nes999
12-26-2010, 4:00 AM
I think the aro ate some glass, and cut his digestion organs resulting in a fatal internal bleeding

+1

Richie_ELP
12-26-2010, 4:16 AM
fish do not get electrocuted, since they have no contact with the ground.

it is the same with birds in electric wires.

We get eletrocuted because we have our feet on the ground and the current passes through us.


if I could float off thr gound, I wouldn't get electrocuted?

doods
12-26-2010, 4:43 AM
So electricution is out of the way right guys? what if the fish accidentally bump on the broken heater? does he get shocked because of the contact with the metal part of the heater?
I don't think the temp change killed it because I changed the heater on the tank, and after like 4 days it just died on me.
Still have any idea? I'm still thinking about the chemicals that was use inside of the heater if it cause any toxic or polluted the water or something that can harm the arowana.

12 Volt Man
12-26-2010, 7:33 AM
sorry for your loss.

sounds like coincidence to me.

as mentioned it was probably not electrocution and the aro probably did not eat broken heater parts.

could have been the temp change though. but again, it should have been more sudden rather than a few days later.

sorry for your loss.

Milpool
12-26-2010, 10:47 AM
Just buy an identical arowana and your buddy will never know!

MonsterMinis
12-26-2010, 11:02 AM
It's possible other contaminents from the heater poisoned the water, But I agree it was likely the arrow eating glass. electricity may not electricute fish, but I'm not sure it doesn't screw with their lateral lines.

pi-eyed
12-26-2010, 11:07 AM
fish do not get electrocuted, since they have no contact with the ground.

it is the same with birds in electric wires.

We get eletrocuted because we have our feet on the ground and the current passes through us.

X2 Miguel. Same is true for squirrels on the power lines. I agree with the broken glass being ingested. Water temp may have also played a role in the demise of the aro. Always sad to hear of a fish death.

-----Chris

fishy12
12-26-2010, 12:01 PM
A broken heater will kill any fish

johno27
12-26-2010, 12:39 PM
I would suspect the temp drop caused most of the BB to go dormant and then when the temp was raised again an ammonia spike took the poor guy out.

But it is impossible to know if you didn't test the water.

doods
12-26-2010, 11:17 PM
Just buy an identical arowana and your buddy will never know!

like im gonna find something identical lol :cry:

doods
12-26-2010, 11:27 PM
I was just wodering why did it take like 4 more days before the fish died if the cause was sudden shift of water temp? although johno27 has a point on the amonia level rising, I didn't got a chance to check it because at that time I was already grieving and out of focus at that time. and I dont have the amonia tester with me.
I would like to clarify about the fish not getting electrocuted, why didn't it get electricuted? because it a live electric current still running in the broken heater, well i didn't test it for obvious reason, coz back in the Philippines I use to watch some guys catch fish in the river by use of electrocution using two rods hook in a car battery. I think the same thing apply with the heater right? the one thing I notice if the arowana did got zap, how come it took time for it to died? like somebody mention about the lateral line thing with big fish like the arowana, maybe it disrupted its natural electric thing or something?

ausarow
12-26-2010, 11:47 PM
turn the new heater off and see what the temp goes down to over the course of four days.
that will give you a good idea if the temp is low enough to kill the fish.
otherwise try and think how cold it got to. did you wear shorts and sleep with no blanket for example. some areas need heaters to keep em alive, some areas need em to keep it stable.

i have had broken heaters before with no fish losses. if they are swinging about the place and not stuck down with suckers they can very easily break.
pulling them out hot, or dropping water level while on and then having them cooking and water touching them after being on dry is the other way to blow them up.
does this happen to be the same fish that someone else posted about being sick but having to go on holiday and having a friend look after it while away?

small tank heaters dont usually have an earth wire. they are active and neutral here.
a dripping/leaking tank at the same time as a heater breaking can be dangerous.
did you feel the shock after the fish was dead, maybe it tripped a breaker.
did you still have pumps and air going.

you can always dissect the arow to check for glass. i doubt that is what killed it.

ausarow
12-26-2010, 11:50 PM
it can take four days for an arow to die with temp drops thats for sure.
it depends how long the drop to fatal temps took.

HungDang
12-27-2010, 1:39 AM
fish do not get electrocuted, since they have no contact with the ground.

it is the same with birds in electric wires.

We get eletrocuted because we have our feet on the ground and the current passes through us.
actually, they do ! I haven seen a lot of people use electricity to catch fish in water ! and water in a fish tank is a good conductor !

Chaitika
12-27-2010, 10:26 AM
And how does an electric catfish stun its prey?

goestonemoa
12-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Just buy an identical arowana and your buddy will never know!

i tend to highly disagree that you buddy would notice the difference between the arowana, i have 6 aros and practically know they're scales like the back of my hand

but a nice gesture for sure and would definitely cushion the blow

as for the electrocution if the fish touched the heating coil and the tank at the same time it would then be grounded , this is my theory along with the drastic temp change

you probably didn't keep the fish but you could have dissected it to find glass like gutting a fish, (sounds harsh but works)

and so sorry to hear about the loss bro:(

ar0wan
12-27-2010, 1:04 PM
you gais so crazy

pi-eyed
12-27-2010, 1:08 PM
i tend to highly disagree that you buddy would notice the difference between the arowana, i have 6 aros and practically know they're scales like the back of my hand

but a nice gesture for sure and would definitely cushion the blow

as for the electrocution if the fish touched the heating coil and the tank at the same time it would then be grounded , this is my theory along with the drastic temp change

you probably didn't keep the fish but you could have dissected it to find glass like gutting a fish, (sounds harsh but works)

and so sorry to hear about the loss bro:(

I agree I can pick my aros out of a line up for sure!!! No doubt about it!!!

----Chris

CLDarnell
12-27-2010, 1:15 PM
I disagree with the comment about not having current in a tank. An open heater has both the hot side and the common side. Water itself is a conductor of electricity. A busted heater in an aquarium has all the components needed to create current.

Remember how we all have been taught not to have a radio, hair dryer, etc near the bathtub?

ar0wan
12-27-2010, 1:16 PM
I agree I can pick my aros out of a line up for sure!!! No doubt about it!!!

----Chris


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP44xWnh1i6ru_mwjz2tJG4ydm97eUB 7lYNjiRrEeoNoaG5BwxdQ

jlnguyen74
12-27-2010, 1:41 PM
now after the discovery of the broken heater, the fish still ate when I came back for it after 2 days, so I checked everything and brought a new heater for the fish, after 2 days I came back and shock to discover the arowana is dead and floating in the tank.



I don't think the temp change killed it because I changed the heater on the tank, and after like 4 days it just died on me.

Did you feed the arowana the day you came and found the heater broken, then came 2 days later with an new heater? If you did, most likely the temp drop kill the fish. Low temp will effect the way fish digesting food, and rotten food inside fish can kill it. I made a fatal mistake last month, did a water change 2 days after I fed my fish. One of my arowana got bloat, and died 2-3 days later. BTW, I don't think you need to explain to your friend. You did him a favor by looking after the fish for him when he's away (on vacation?) All you need to let him know is the heater was shatter, and the arowana died 2 or 4 days (whatever it is) after that.. Just let him have the fact, and he can draw whatever conclusion he likes


I disagree with the comment about not having current in a tank. An open heater has both the hot side and the common side. Water itself is a conductor of electricity. A busted heater in an aquarium has all the components needed to create current.

Remember how we all have been taught not to have a radio, hair dryer, etc near the bathtub?
I'm not sure if anyone said there's no current in the tank. They just said fish didn't get shock, since it was not grounded, just like bird lands/rest on a power line.

jlnguyen74
12-27-2010, 1:45 PM
And how does an electric catfish stun its prey?
The same way someone use a stunt gun on another person without getting stunt :D

Miguel
12-27-2010, 1:46 PM
I'm not sure if anyone said there's no current in the tank. They just said fish didn't get shock, since it was not grounded, just like bird lands/rest on a power line.



exactly

Zaminpirlo
12-27-2010, 1:47 PM
same thing happened to my feeder tank, heater broke and eletricuted all the feeders and killed 3 plecos. I touched the water and it zapped me.

ausarow
12-28-2010, 3:03 AM
electrofishing is done with the aid of the earth bottom.
as does an electric eel. fishtanks are different.
firstly glass is an insulator. ever touched a light globe and still not been shocked?
what about the tubes in an amplifier? touch them and they feel warm. they dont shock you.

if you have say a dry wooden stand AND no other earth to speak of then where is the earth? you may become the earth.
it would be different if say moisture was contacting to say a metal lighthood with an earth attached and it would be different if your tank was leaking or had a heap of condensation going down to say a conducting stand made of metal. different again if you come along without good rubber (insulated) boots. i dont suggest anyone try that though.

even take a pool with a plastic liner and the liner can/will stop the circuit to ground.
some farms have even had earth spikes that run to the water so that in the even of a problem the current has some pathway to ground.
come along and touch an insulated pool of water (without a ground spike) with less than electric proof firemans boots and your as good as zapped. bare feet on wet ground is even worse.
if a power line is down. and you stand near it with feet wide apart you can absorb the difference between the two spots. its why people will shuffle along near downed powerlines or wear good boots.

tanks with broken heaters are dangerous as, but it doesent always prove true that fish will get shocked and die.

often if you have a small cut on your finger and the water has some salt in it and you are barefoot you will notice there is some current in it. thats because conductivity is increased.

doods
12-28-2010, 6:42 AM
i tend to highly disagree that you buddy would notice the difference between the arowana, i have 6 aros and practically know they're scales like the back of my hand

but a nice gesture for sure and would definitely cushion the blow

as for the electrocution if the fish touched the heating coil and the tank at the same time it would then be grounded , this is my theory along with the drastic temp change

you probably didn't keep the fish but you could have dissected it to find glass like gutting a fish, (sounds harsh but works)

and so sorry to hear about the loss bro:(

I kept the fish in my friend freezer so he can still see his beloved fish. Don't wanna throw it away because he had the fish since it was lil. Maybe he will dissected afterward when he comes back.


Did you feed the arowana the day you came and found the heater broken, then came 2 days later with an new heater? If you did, most likely the temp drop kill the fish. Low temp will effect the way fish digesting food, and rotten food inside fish can kill it. I made a fatal mistake last month, did a water change 2 days after I fed my fish. One of my arowana got bloat, and died 2-3 days later. BTW, I don't think you need to explain to your friend. You did him a favor by looking after the fish for him when he's away (on vacation?) All you need to let him know is the heater was shatter, and the arowana died 2 or 4 days (whatever it is) after that.. Just let him have the fact, and he can draw whatever conclusion he likes


I'm not sure if anyone said there's no current in the tank. They just said fish didn't get shock, since it was not grounded, just like bird lands/rest on a power line.

I wish is that easy to tell him, he loved the fish very much. It was hes only buddy since we are all working here in saudi arabia as expats so this is our only hobby that can relax us when we came home from a hard days work.
I'll tell him the facts certainly but I don't know how he will handle it coming from vacation, feeling home sick and away from his family, and I'm gonna welcome him with this sorrowful event. :cry:

And I will certainly say all the valuable inputs the guys here in MFK regarding my question so that he can also analyze by himself the reason why his arowana died. Well hell be back next year Jan 9, cant still think how am I going to deliver the sad event.

jlnguyen74
12-28-2010, 6:57 AM
same thing happened to my feeder tank, heater broke and eletricuted all the feeders and killed 3 plecos. I touched the water and it zapped me.
I'm pretty sure the fish were fine until the moment you touched the water. You completed the circuit. You "electrocuted" all your fish! :D

Addikted2Cichlids
12-28-2010, 7:20 AM
I think this has to be researced more, I find it hard to believe if im floating in a pool of water and someone throws a high voltage power line in the water, that I would be fine as long as im floating..

doods
12-28-2010, 7:49 AM
I think this has to be researced more, I find it hard to believe if im floating in a pool of water and someone throws a high voltage power line in the water, that I would be fine as long as im floating..

yes thats true, and how do the electric eel zap its pray? their all floating right? I mean swimming in water without any contact to any other surface like rock or wood. So does this work on the broken heater? maybe somebody here would like to do an experiment buy putting a broken heater (glass broken) and submerging it in water, and test the water with a tester and check if there is live current flowing in the water and check how many voltz of electricity its producing. just an idea guys :)

aussiemonsters
12-28-2010, 8:06 AM
Have had some experience with electrofishing, in the pic we are electrofishing AUL's and relocating them back to the dam which has overflowed. Not a good pic but you can see the anodes mounted on the front which create the field note the rubberboots,gloves and fiberglass handles on the nets. Everyone with a net who is actively netting fish leaning over the side also has a kill switch under their foot in case they fall over. Anything within the field in the water gets shocked

Addikted2Cichlids
12-28-2010, 8:07 AM
I had a broken heater once, my fish were going crazy one morning when I woke up. They were swimming all over the place smashing into the glass. So i went over to check what was going on, everything seemed normal other than the fact they were all going crazy, so I opened the lid to put my hand in the tank to keep them from smashing the sides because they normally cowered in a corner when a giant hand came in. I then realized that i got a nice little shock, I quickly unplugged the lights and checked the water again, nope, still a current.. I then unplugged my heater and checked the water, it didn't shock me.. So due to the fact that my fish were freaking out more then I have ever seen before, by far, this is the reason I believe they can be shocked.. But it possibly may have just been a coincidence..

T1KARMANN
12-28-2010, 10:39 AM
All electrical goods in the UK have a fused plug not sure why the rest of the world is not the same

HungDang
12-28-2010, 12:19 PM
All electrical goods in the UK have a fused plug not sure why the rest of the world is not the same
here in US, only those electrical plug that near water have that !

CLDarnell
12-28-2010, 12:21 PM
here in US, only those electrical plug that near water have that !

Most "near water" outlets are GF protected. Here in the US, the only fused plugs I can think of are some Christmas lights lol.

HungDang
12-28-2010, 12:28 PM
pure water(H2O) is not a conductor, but water with some other thing in it is a good conductor! that's why they use water water to detect Cl2 from German during WW2. Electrical eel and electrofishing using the water surround the fish as a conductor, so the electrical current can pass through the fish !

HungDang
12-28-2010, 12:32 PM
I'm pretty sure the fish were fine until the moment you touched the water. You completed the circuit. You "electrocuted" all your fish! :D
if you say so, why he can complete the circuit if water didn't conduct the electricity ? and if the water can conduct the electricity, then it already is a complete circuit with the fish inside !

goestonemoa
12-28-2010, 12:34 PM
well your definetly a good friend if you replace it,

there is a guy who freeze dries your fish here maybe some one does the same where you live and you guys could have him mounted

HungDang
12-28-2010, 12:34 PM
Most "near water" outlets are GF protected. Here in the US, the only fused plugs I can think of are some Christmas lights lol.
I can see it in the kitchen, bathrooms, and outside the house !

HungDang
12-28-2010, 12:36 PM
well your definetly a good friend if you replace it,

there is a guy who freeze dries your fish here maybe some one does the same where you live and you guys could have him mounted
X2
I have seen some people keep their dead aro in the freezer so they can always remember them !

ar0wan
12-28-2010, 12:41 PM
pure water(H2O) is not a conductor, but water with some other thing in it is a good conductor...

..there always has to be one
and while we're splitting hairs
you can put a cigarette out in Diesel fuel

T1KARMANN
12-28-2010, 7:29 PM
X2
I have seen some people keep their dead aro in the freezer so they can always remember them !

That for crazy people the same with people who stuff pets

Just put your dead pets to rest and show them some respect not keep them in the freezer or on the wall like some kind of trophy

doods
12-29-2010, 7:14 AM
That for crazy people the same with people who stuff pets

Just put your dead pets to rest and show them some respect not keep them in the freezer or on the wall like some kind of trophy

It ain't that crazy bro, maybe with the furry animals it is, but with the fish, it ain't that bad, specially with the arowana, they look good hanging by the wall. It's something to remind you about what not to do next time or just to see it still there even if its dead. hmmm creepy :D

anyway I still prefer a monster fish hanging in the wall rather than a furry animal. IMO

ausarow
12-29-2010, 9:05 AM
hungden, i think what jinguyen meant was that the water was live with current and at the time when he got a shock he had made the earth to the ground via his body as the conductor. as in the fish was maybe alive till the grounding/zap happened.

all possible but if a heater turned off by breaking or having a power out then maybe the same death would have occurred.

ausarow
12-29-2010, 9:22 AM
to the guy that visions he is floating in a pool of water and someone throws a live wire in. yes you will be shocked dead.
pools of water are grounded. so the live wire will be touching the water, then the electricity will go through you on the way to seeking the ground.
do not try this for research.
i think its important for people to know a little about electricity and water and not to be confused about it. i have been locked onto by an exposed wire on a dodgey extension lead for atleast 15 seconds and there is very little you can do about it once it happens so please peoples, do be careful. i was hugely fortunate to get out of it.

Addikted2Cichlids
12-30-2010, 5:09 AM
Thats my point, all fish tanks are grounded as well, unless somehow, someone has one that free floats..

Bderick67
12-30-2010, 8:18 PM
Thats my point, all fish tanks are grounded as well, unless somehow, someone has one that free floats..

No all fish tanks are not grounded. Glass and acrylic are insulators(non conductive) so ungrounded. The tank may become grounded through a faulty piece of equipment, or intentionally with a ground probe. Worse case scenario a person sticking their hand in the tank may provide the path to ground.