Project: ZERO Nitrate

[JardiniBoy]

I would like to start a thread about reducing nitrate through filtration in FW systems. The marine bros are pro at this and there is a lot of good info out there about nitrate reduction, but very few FW bros seem to be into this.

In the normal (aerobic) part of the nitrogen cycle which happens in all FW filters, NH3/NH4 is converted to NO2, and then to NO3 (nitrate) which is removed by water changes. Anaerobic bacteria live in low oxygen and oxygen free areas and consume NO3 as a source of oxygen.

I have had 2 coil denitrators installed for the past few months. Search for "DIY coil denitrator" for more info. I'm also looking into using a remote deep sand bed (RDSB) as per the ones used and recommended by Anthony Calfo (marine genius) over on RC. Info on this here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

(50 pages long but well worth the read)

I know that some bros use commercial denitrators here ... do they work?

Also, does anyone have any experience/info regarding coil denitrators, DSBs, RDSBs, sulphur denitrators, or any other means of reducing nitrate in a freshwater aquarium?

Please don't think I'm trying to get away from my waterchanges. I've come to accept that changing water is part of this hobby, and have come to enjoy doing mine. My hope is that, when i start running all my systems together (and start testing), I'll have low nitrates and will be able to do small weekly water changes which will stress the fish less..

Any thoughts?

[JardiniBoy]

This is the RDSB I installed last night. I plugged it in and it was all running fine, but I decided I needed to add the orange hose over the outlet pipe because of the splashing sound. While doing this, I broke the silicon seal, and when I plugged it in again it was leaking (without a sound :D ).

I'm gonna change the outlet seal for a bulkhead and see if I can get it running again before my vacation.

[JardiniBoy]

Here are some pics of one of my denitrators. They're pretty self explanatory ... please feel free to ask questions.

[Zinq]

Hey,
Just a clarification about denitrification. As a student microbiologist, anaerobic bacteria that use Nitrate (as an electron acceptor) don't use the oxygen component of NO3. Otherwise they'd be "aerobic". Anaerobic implies use of something other than O2, such as Nitrogen or Sulfur They use the Nitrogen.
They convert it in the following manner.

Nitrate --> Nitrite --> Ammonia --> N2 (Nitrogen gas)
Hence the name "Denitrification". It's basically the opposite of what the aerobic nitrification bacteria do.

So it seems plausible to me that you can have an increase in your nitrite/ammonia readings before they turn into N2 gas and escape into the atmosphere. Assuming you have the right bacteria in there. Many bacteria can only use (reduce) Nitrate to Nitrite and it ends there.

Sorry, I don't know much about denitrification with aquariums though. I've only observed potentially pathogenic types, though the denitrification process would be the same.

Zinq

PS. Not trying to make you feel stupid or anything of the sort. Just some commentary and speculation on my part.

[HarleyK]

Hi JardiniBoy,

That is a serious undertaking :thumbsup:

Have you checked out THIS (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51672)thread? With some serious excess of Biohome Media you may be able to ditch those denitrators.

Just a reminder: Zero nitrates is good for /\/\onsters, but not good for plants.

HarleyK

[Dr Joe]

Hey,
Just a clarification about denitrification. As a student microbiologist, anaerobic bacteria that use Nitrate (as an electron acceptor) don't use the oxygen component of NO3. Otherwise they'd be "aerobic". Anaerobic implies use of something other than O2, such as Nitrogen or Sulfur They use the Nitrogen.
They convert it in the following manner.

Nitrate --> Nitrite --> Ammonia --> N2 (Nitrogen gas)
Hence the name "Denitrification". It's basically the opposite of what the aerobic nitrification bacteria do.

So it seems plausible to me that you can have an increase in your nitrite/ammonia readings before they turn into N2 gas and escape into the atmosphere. Assuming you have the right bacteria in there. Many bacteria can only use (reduce) Nitrate to Nitrite and it ends there.

Sorry, I don't know much about denitrification with aquariums though. I've only observed potentially pathogenic types, though the denitrification process would be the same.

Zinq

PS. Not trying to make you feel stupid or anything of the sort. Just some commentary and speculation on my part.


So your saying we'll dump more ammonia back in the tank after the denitrator than what went into the denitrator?


JardiniBoy, the main reason the F/S crowd has little on denitrating vs S/W...S/W costs a bundle to do W/C's so they have incentive. :D

Dr Joe

.

[Zinq]

Theoretically, yes. I'm really not well informed of the dynamics behind an aquarium denitrification system. I think it really depends on what kinda bacteria you get... Some will only denitrify back to Nitrite some go all the way and make N2. So I guess if theres bubbles coming out of ur denitrification apparatus then its a fairly good sign.

At worst the nitrates that was made by the aerobic bacteria is converted back to ammonia... which is in turn converted back to nitrate... and so on. So yah technically if you dont have the right bacteria and environment you may end up with more ammonia then what went in. At best, you get complete denitrification and Nitrogen gas... which can take a while. But then again, I just know this part in theory. If anyone has had this work for them, then more power to them.

I just read the linked thread on Biohome and googled some stuff. But from my understanding, maintaining an adequate environment for anaerobic bacteria is going to be slightly difficult. The environment has to be quite anaerobic. Some bacteria that live in an O2 free environment will die if exposed to air because they lack the enzymes that are needed to break down free oxygen radicals (O3, hydrogen peroxide etc).
I've had to perform growth of organisms in anaerobic environments and just exposing them to air will quickly kill off my culture. Have to set up anaerobic chambers and what not. Big hassle.

Anyways, good luck to you JardiniBoy. Hope it works out. Plants seem so much easier to me though o_O.

Zinq

[RadleyMiller]

Good luck JardiniBoy, but honestly Purigen + a drip system would work much better IMO. Keep us posted.

[DeLgAdO]

I would like to start a thread about reducing nitrate through filtration in FW systems. The marine bros are pro at this and there is a lot of good info out there about nitrate reduction, but very few FW bros seem to be into this.

In the normal (aerobic) part of the nitrogen cycle which happens in all FW filters, NH3/NH4 is converted to NO2, and then to NO3 (nitrate) which is removed by water changes. Anaerobic bacteria live in low oxygen and oxygen free areas and consume NO3 as a source of oxygen.

I have had 2 coil denitrators installed for the past few months. Search for "DIY coil denitrator" for more info. I'm also looking into using a remote deep sand bed (RDSB) as per the ones used and recommended by Anthony Calfo (marine genius) over on RC. Info on this here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

(50 pages long but well worth the read)

I know that some bros use commercial denitrators here ... do they work?

Also, does anyone have any experience/info regarding coil denitrators, DSBs, RDSBs, sulphur denitrators, or any other means of reducing nitrate in a freshwater aquarium?

Please don't think I'm trying to get away from my waterchanges. I've come to accept that changing water is part of this hobby, and have come to enjoy doing mine. My hope is that, when i start running all my systems together (and start testing), I'll have low nitrates and will be able to do small weekly water changes which will stress the fish less..

Any thoughts?

nitrate should be the one of the worries, you also have other dissolved organic compounds, and a bacteria count in the water column. Not no mention the acids produced by nitrification.

[Boydo]

Iv'e been running the Korallin S4002 Sulfur Denitrator for 3 month know and it's works very well. I recently added a 50' coil in front of it to help ensure low O2 water gets to it. It's input water depending on the time of last WC is 20-50 mg/L and output is 0-5 mg/L with a rate of approx 35 gal/Day. I had tried DIY Coil unit before and they worked well, but they would plug off after a few months, but I have been thinking of building another one using some different ideas. As for DSB's I have never had one, although lately I have been thinking of building one, anything to help control nitrates. How did you build your DSB?

[JardiniBoy]

Hey,
Just a clarification about denitrification. As a student microbiologist, anaerobic bacteria that use Nitrate (as an electron acceptor) don't use the oxygen component of NO3. Otherwise they'd be "aerobic". Anaerobic implies use of something other than O2, such as Nitrogen or Sulfur They use the Nitrogen.
They convert it in the following manner.

Nitrate --> Nitrite --> Ammonia --> N2 (Nitrogen gas)
Hence the name "Denitrification". It's basically the opposite of what the aerobic nitrification bacteria do.

So it seems plausible to me that you can have an increase in your nitrite/ammonia readings before they turn into N2 gas and escape into the atmosphere. Assuming you have the right bacteria in there. Many bacteria can only use (reduce) Nitrate to Nitrite and it ends there.

Sorry, I don't know much about denitrification with aquariums though. I've only observed potentially pathogenic types, though the denitrification process would be the same.

Zinq

PS. Not trying to make you feel stupid or anything of the sort. Just some commentary and speculation on my part.

I'm only still a newbie with this stuff ... but from what I read in another thread, the anaerobic bacteria needs oxygen just like any other organism. It is able to live in anaerobic conditions because it uses the oxygen from the nitrate. Thus the nitrate is not a food source, rather an oxygen source. Apparently they also need a food source and some fishkeepers have had success dosing sugar or vodka as a food source for for the denitrifying bacteria.

As I said, I'm not sure on the above so please feel free to correct me. (and I really mean please do ... any biologists out there?)

[JardiniBoy]

Hi JardiniBoy,

That is a serious undertaking :thumbsup:

Have you checked out THIS (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51672)thread? With some serious excess of Biohome Media you may be able to ditch those denitrators.

Just a reminder: Zero nitrates is good for /\/\onsters, but not good for plants.

HarleyK

Hey Harley

Yes I have seen it. I'm interested in getting some, but it isn't available in Taiwan. My setup is perfect for it's use because I could put it in the last compartment of my sump with a sh*t load of bio media before it to make nitrates and suck up the oxygen ... maybe I'll get some in the future. If I did, I would still continue to use my denitrators. They are very simple and need no maintenance ... "plug and play". They are also cheap and easy to make, so no worries about them.

Thanks for the advice!

[JardiniBoy]

So your saying we'll dump more ammonia back in the tank after the denitrator than what went into the denitrator?


JardiniBoy, the main reason the F/S crowd has little on denitrating vs S/W...S/W costs a bundle to do W/C's so they have incentive. :D

Dr Joe

.

I'm actually still not sure about all the chemistry involved here joe, but I know it's actually quite complicated. There are also bacteria that can live in both environments, and ones that convert the nitrate to a range of different substances.

As I said in the original post, I'm not trying to get out of doing water changes. My goal is to control nitrates by other means and do small weekly water changes to dilute DOCs and anything else my filtration doesn't take care of.

This will make my system more stable. When keeping red arowana, stability is important for good coloration. Apparently large water changes will negatively affect the color, and many of the pros (with beautiful, healthy reds) will opt for high nitrates and a stable system.

[JardiniBoy]

Good luck JardiniBoy, but honestly Purigen + a drip system would work much better IMO. Keep us posted.

Thanks bro! :D

I know about the benefits of purigen and I did consider a drip system when I originally had my tank made. The drip system wasn't an option for various reasons, and purigen isn't available in Taiwan, and when it does become it will be very expensive.

Thanks for the hints though..

[Zinq]

Well your statement is true in part. Anaerobic bacteria by definition don't use the Oxygen though. The ones we are talking about use the N part of it, the nitrogen. But it's not a food source for them. It has a similar function to what ppl need O2 for, we breath it. They "breath" in N. So basically not all organisms(refering mainly to bacteria) need oxygen in any form. But some will switch back and forth if given the option.

- Crash course in the science behind it-
I'm not sure what your science background so i'll keep this basic. Basically when we breath we need Oxygen to accept electrons. When we dont have oxygen, we die. Because our cells can't generate energy (It doesn't use the O2 as energy but it needs it to generate it, much like a fire needs O2 to burn but is not the source of fuel). Similarly SOME anaerobic organisms use the N part of Nitrate/Nitrite/NH3 as a source of "air" and they accept the electrons. Thus making energy. But obviously they (like us) can't survive off the N part of Nitrate alone, so they need amino acids, glucose, etc. Notice how it's not ALL anaerobic bacteria who use Nitrogen or Oxygen, some use sulfur and the end product is Hydrogen sulfide...Which kills you. (I think that's why ppl say aerate/stir your sand otherwise you get trapped gas)

[JardiniBoy]

nitrate should be the one of the worries, you also have other dissolved organic compounds, and a bacteria count in the water column. Not no mention the acids produced by nitrification.

I generally try to be positive in my replies ... but here I'm going to defer. :D

Please don't think I'm trying to get away from my water changes. I've come to accept that changing water is part of this hobby, and have come to enjoy doing mine. My hope is that, when i start running all my systems together (and start testing), I'll have low nitrates and will be able to do small weekly water changes which will stress the fish less..

You always chirp into these discussions with the same stuff about DOCs etc.. The above quote shows that I've already considered that point. If you don't have anything real to add or are just going to negative, rather don't post. If there are 10 positive posts and one bs negative one ... you always know who it's gonna be from.

Rant over... *phew*

[JardiniBoy]

Iv'e been running the Korallin S4002 Sulfur Denitrator for 3 month know and it's works very well. I recently added a 50' coil in front of it to help ensure low O2 water gets to it. It's input water depending on the time of last WC is 20-50 mg/L and output is 0-5 mg/L with a rate of approx 35 gal/Day. I had tried DIY Coil unit before and they worked well, but they would plug off after a few months, but I have been thinking of building another one using some different ideas. As for DSB's I have never had one, although lately I have been thinking of building one, anything to help control nitrates. How did you build your DSB?

A RDSB is basically a sand bed of over 8" with a strong prefiltered water flow over it. The strong flow prevents detritus from settling into the bed. The nitrates will diffuse down in to the anaerobic regions within the bed and be consumed by the denitrifying bacteria.

Many SW bros who had been battling nitrates without any success for ages installed one of these and it sorted out their problems in a month!

Check out the link in the original post for more info on this..

[JardiniBoy]

Well your statement is true in part. Anaerobic bacteria by definition don't use the Oxygen though. The ones we are talking about use the N part of it, the nitrogen. But it's not a food source for them. It has a similar function to what ppl need O2 for, we breath it. They "breath" in N. So basically not all organisms(refering mainly to bacteria) need oxygen in any form. But some will switch back and forth if given the option.

- Crash course in the science behind it-
I'm not sure what your science background so i'll keep this basic. Basically when we breath we need Oxygen to accept electrons. When we dont have oxygen, we die. Because our cells can't generate energy (It doesn't use the O2 as energy but it needs it to generate it, much like a fire needs O2 to burn but is not the source of fuel). Similarly SOME anaerobic organisms use the N part of Nitrate/Nitrite/NH3 as a source of "air" and they accept the electrons. Thus making energy. But obviously they (like us) can't survive off the N part of Nitrate alone, so they need amino acids, glucose, etc. Notice how it's not ALL anaerobic bacteria who use Nitrogen or Oxygen, some use sulfur and the end product is Hydrogen sulfide...Which kills you. (I think that's why ppl say aerate/stir your sand otherwise you get trapped gas)

Thanks for the details bro! It's still a little hazy, but getting clearer.

With the above in mind, what would be your thoughts on dosing a food source for the bacteria (sugar/vodka) and how would I go about doing it?

Also I have seen some RDSBs with sulphur (in a solid form) at the bottom below the sand. Would this increase the efficiency of the RDSB? I know there are some commercial sulphur denitrators and bro Boydo is using one with some success.

Thanks again! :D

[Zinq]

I've never heard of an RDSB. It seems pretty interesting though. I can see how it can make an anaerobic environment (at least in the deeper regions of sand) for ur bacteria and denitrifying some nitrates. But when installing it, do you have to add some specific sort of bacteria or is it similar to the concept of cycling a tank where the nitrification bacteria are already in the environment?
I'm guessing nothing is added...Anyways...My only quirk with the sand bed system is how does the N2 escape the sand? Doesn't it just get trapped under the sand? I'm guessing a good way to see if ur bed is working is to poke it with something and see if bubbles come out. But for every single organism... ur poop is toxic to you, so excess of nitrogen would probably be detrimental to the organisms... A poke or two now and then would probably be good.

As for dosing food sources, I would probably go with sugar above anything else. Vodka is not generally good for your fish or bacteria. The alcohol will basically kill them all. It's like those alcohol sterilizing wipes. It'll kill ur bacteria. Dosage... I have no clue. Would have to do some testing for any sort of clue. I've never actually tried any sort of system that resembles an RDSB so no clue.

As for the sulfur thing. I also have no clue. I googled it and came across some chemical equations that appear plausible. Also read some explanations that also seem descent. But, it will increase your pH, so watch out for that. At the moment, I don't really know. I'm going to ask my friend, who is a ....i forgot what sort of engineer... It has to do with designing filtration systems for various things. He told me about his adventures working on a filtration system for a bunch of water loving zoo animals. So i'll get back to you on that.

[JardiniBoy]

I've never heard of an RDSB. It seems pretty interesting though. I can see how it can make an anaerobic environment (at least in the deeper regions of sand) for ur bacteria and denitrifying some nitrates. But when installing it, do you have to add some specific sort of bacteria or is it similar to the concept of cycling a tank where the nitrification bacteria are already in the environment?
I'm guessing nothing is added...Anyways...My only quirk with the sand bed system is how does the N2 escape the sand? Doesn't it just get trapped under the sand? I'm guessing a good way to see if ur bed is working is to poke it with something and see if bubbles come out. But for every single organism... ur poop is toxic to you, so excess of nitrogen would probably be detrimental to the organisms... A poke or two now and then would probably be good.

As for dosing food sources, I would probably go with sugar above anything else. Vodka is not generally good for your fish or bacteria. The alcohol will basically kill them all. It's like those alcohol sterilizing wipes. It'll kill ur bacteria. Dosage... I have no clue. Would have to do some testing for any sort of clue. I've never actually tried any sort of system that resembles an RDSB so no clue.

As for the sulfur thing. I also have no clue. I googled it and came across some chemical equations that appear plausible. Also read some explanations that also seem descent. But, it will increase your pH, so watch out for that. At the moment, I don't really know. I'm going to ask my friend, who is a ....i forgot what sort of engineer... It has to do with designing filtration systems for various things. He told me about his adventures working on a filtration system for a bunch of water loving zoo animals. So i'll get back to you on that.

From what I've read (and please bear with me here because I'm still a noob with this stuff) stirring the sand is a bad idea because it disturbs the different layers in the sand.

The layers are actually quite complex. There is the aerobic layer, the low oxygen layer and the anaerobic layer, with different bacteria living in each layer (many different kinds in each layer I think).

I guess if the nitrogen gas were to escape, it would be by the same way the nitrates got in ... diffusion. Higher concentration in the lower regions of the sandbed, lower above.

From the original link I posted, the guy who recommended the use of RDSBs has had them installed for many years and hasn't had a problem with "nasties" getting trapped inside. There are other people who have had different experiences though.

I think the keys are:
(1) remote from the rest of the system
(2) relatively high flow (compared to a coil denitrator)
(3) prefiltered water
(4) a dark environment is recommended
(5) nothing else in the RDSB except sand and water

The cool thing is that they are cheap to make, easy to install and maintenance free ... so worth a try IMHO. I must just get a decent test kit now and try to get some results.

[Zinq]

Well I asked my friend and he doesn't know. Oh wells.

Yah the layer thing makes sense too and I suppose the nitrogen could diffuse through.

Beh too tired to think. I say go for it. Tell us how it goes. Sounds like a fun experiment.
Keep us updated.

Zinq

[ewurm]

I use purigen and water changes. I want to add a drip sysem when I move. I also inquired about the biohome media. Thanks for the thread, let us know the results.

[JardiniBoy]

Well I finally managed to find a bulkhead in the third hardware store I went to so I'll be able to fix the problem of my leaking RDSB tonight.

Any MFKers ever run a normal DSB (in FW) and tested the system for it's effects on nitrates?

[DeLgAdO]

I generally try to be positive in my replies ... but here I'm going to defer. :D



You always chirp into these discussions with the same stuff about DOCs etc.. The above quote shows that I've already considered that point. If you don't have anything real to add or are just going to negative, rather don't post. If there are 10 positive posts and one bs negative one ... you always know who it's gonna be from.

Rant over... *phew*

man that talk is getting old and boring *yawn*, and the above quote doesnt show anything ive mentioned :raspberry

ok.......nitrates.....

how about this: a refugium filled with floating plants such as water hyathsinths (did i spell it right?:ROFL: ) hardy and fast growing, just add a liquid plant suppliment and you should be good to go.

[DeLgAdO]

Well I finally managed to find a bulkhead in the third hardware store I went to so I'll be able to fix the problem of my leaking RDSB tonight.

Any MFKers ever run a normal DSB (in FW) and tested the system for it's effects on nitrates?

i have sir!

its a nightmare in freshwater tanks, especially if you have diggers (barbs and cichlids) they stir up (i should say destroy) the sand bed.

[Dr Joe]

man that talk is getting old and boring *yawn*, and the above quote doesnt show anything ive mentioned :raspberry

ok.......nitrates.....

how about this: a refugium filled with floating plants such as water hyathsinths (did i spell it right?:ROFL: ) hardy and fast growing, just add a liquid plant suppliment and you should be good to go.

Refugium...Good....Plant suppliments not so good, in a refugium it goes straight out to the tank...POP...algae bloom. And now someone is going to say they do it all the time :D .



i have sir!

its a nightmare in freshwater tanks, especially if you have diggers (barbs and cichlids) they stir up (i should say destroy) the sand bed.

DSB's are supposed to be run separately from the tank, so they are not disturbed.


JardiniBoy where does someone who lives in Taipei go on vacation to?

Dr Joe

.

[JardiniBoy]

JardiniBoy where does someone who lives in Taipei go on vacation to?

Dr Joe
.

To your side of the world actually, but the other side of the country ... San Diego. My bro lives there... :D

I just got the RDSB up and running again, but with a bulkhead this time. It's the first time I've used one and it seems to work really nicely. It's really tight and it was very cheap..

[JardiniBoy]

its a nightmare in freshwater tanks, especially if you have diggers (barbs and cichlids) they stir up (i should say destroy) the sand bed.

I think you're refering to a SSB. If it were a DSB I think the fish would only be able to disturb the top layer and not have too much effect. I know some cichlids are crazy about moving gravel/sand around though, so if you thought it were a problem you could put some heavier stones on top to protect the sandbed...

To be considered a DSB it must be a minumum of 4" deep, with 6" and up recommended..

[DeLgAdO]

Refugium...Good....Plant suppliments not so good, in a refugium it goes straight out to the tank...POP...algae bloom. And now someone is going to say they do it all the time :D .





.


welp, yes, the suppliment will go out the refugium, this is true, but the water will come back into the system and go through the refugium where the plant can utilize it, so its actually not a bad at all. the plant suppliment should not include nitrogen and phosporus, these are already coming from the fish waste.

[DeLgAdO]

I think you're refering to a SSB. If it were a DSB I think the fish would only be able to disturb the top layer and not have too much effect. I know some cichlids are crazy about moving gravel/sand around though, so if you thought it were a problem you could put some heavier stones on top to protect the sandbed...

To be considered a DSB it must be a minumum of 4" deep, with 6" and up recommended..

how could i forget! lol

yea i dont see why it wouldnt work

gotta have good mechanical filteration though.

[Dr Joe]

welp, yes, the suppliment will go out the refugium, this is true, but the water will come back into the system and go through the refugium where the plant can utilize it, so its actually not a bad at all. the plant suppliment should not include nitrogen and phosporus, these are already coming from the fish waste.


That's the problem, fertz go out to tank. Then algae BOOM, then thru the filter, more algae boom, not much left for refugium second time around.

I agree with the no nitrogen & phosphorus, unfortunately those are the best for the plants :D .

Dr Joe

.

[johnptc]

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM SOMEONE TRYING BIOHOME AND WHAT IF ANY DIFFERENCE IT MAKES IN NITRATE LEVELS.......SIMPLE SOLUTION IF IT WORKS.....SEEMS HARD TO BELIEVE SUCH A SMALL VOLUME OF BIOHOME CAN DO SO MUCH

[Boydo]

DSB should work just like bio home as they both use anaerobic area to nitrafy nitrate. Bio homes porosity promotes areas with very slow curents were anaerobic bacteria can live doing some reducing of nitrates, I think a heavy bio loaded tank would require alot of this product to make a difference, I'm not saying it wont work, but how much is the question.
A DSB would have a larger anaerobic area being the bottom layer of sand, and would probably remove more nitrates. I might be going out on a limb here, since I'm not an expert on this, but my concern with a DSB is the unknown bacterias that would be grown in areas where there almost no water flow - maybe harmfull to fish. What I would like to build is a DIY Coil/sulfur reactor, Using a coil that about 50-75' of larger hose (not air line since it plugs off after time) 1/4" or 3/8" then going into the camber (like most coil units) with sulfur beads rather than bio material since this will feed the anaerobic bacteria. Here the catch, I would install a small pump to circulate the cansiter removing dead spots. Ok, too break it down now, 50-75' of 1/4" coil this removes or reduces oxygen, canister with say 20-30 lbs of sulfur beads in the bottom and you could add 2-5 lbs of CC on top to maintain pH, and an outlet valve to control the flow. This way is more pricey but requires no dosing or maintance and is safe, I'm going to build a bigger one since I have a very high bio load, I think I'm going to use 50 lbs of sulfur, I would like to be able to denitrate 60-70 gallons a day, which means only one water change a week rather than two and most importantly :) Happy Fishes:) .

[JardiniBoy]

DSB should work just like bio home as they both use anaerobic area to nitrafy nitrate. Bio homes porosity promotes areas with very slow curents were anaerobic bacteria can live doing some reducing of nitrates, I think a heavy bio loaded tank would require alot of this product to make a difference, I'm not saying it wont work, but how much is the question.
A DSB would have a larger anaerobic area being the bottom layer of sand, and would probably remove more nitrates. I might be going out on a limb here, since I'm not an expert on this, but my concern with a DSB is the unknown bacterias that would be grown in areas where there almost no water flow - maybe harmfull to fish. What I would like to build is a DIY Coil/sulfur reactor, Using a coil that about 50-75' of larger hose (not air line since it plugs off after time) 1/4" or 3/8" then going into the camber (like most coil units) with sulfur beads rather than bio material since this will feed the anaerobic bacteria. Here the catch, I would install a small pump to circulate the cansiter removing dead spots. Ok, too break it down now, 50-75' of 1/4" coil this removes or reduces oxygen, canister with say 20-30 lbs of sulfur beads in the bottom and you could add 2-5 lbs of CC on top to maintain pH, and an outlet valve to control the flow. This way is more pricey but requires no dosing or maintance and is safe, I'm going to build a bigger one since I have a very high bio load, I think I'm going to use 50 lbs of sulfur, I would like to be able to denitrate 60-70 gallons a day, which means only one water change a week rather than two and most importantly :) Happy Fishes:) .

That sulphur denitrator sounds interesting ... maybe I can convert one of my regular coil denitrators to that. Does the de-nitrifying bacteria use the sulphur as a food source? Also ... isn't this the reaction that produces some pretty nasty gasses?

[Boydo]

The sulfur is the food source so there is no need to dose it with alcohol or sugar. Like all denitrators it will emit some methane and nitrogen as a byproduct, as for H2S same thing can be emited only if the flow is to slow. Once there are running after 7-8 weeks, the output flow should contain just traces of nitrate - this is optimum.

[johno27]

Nice work seems like quite a project keep us updated

Del unless you have something positive to add to jar's project maybe you should go start a refugium thread and quit hijacking his :)

[JardiniBoy]

Nice work seems like quite a project keep us updated

Del unless you have something positive to add to jar's project maybe you should go start a refugium thread and quit hijacking his :)

Thanks bro ... and thanks, well said. :thumbsup:

[JardiniBoy]

The sulfur is the food source so there is no need to dose it with alcohol or sugar. Like all denitrators it will emit some methane and nitrogen as a byproduct, as for H2S same thing can be emited only if the flow is to slow. Once there are running after 7-8 weeks, the output flow should contain just traces of nitrate - this is optimum.

This definately sounds interesting and I would like to try it when I get back from vacation. I still think it would be a good idea to include some biomedia in the chamber for the anaerobic bacteria to colonize.

Could you please post some pics of how it was made and the finished product if and when you do it?

Thanks! :D

[fsc46]

I found this thread on a koi forum. It looks like a mod to a wet/dry filter. I haven't tried it so I can't answer any questions. Here's the link: wet/dry mod (http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=3071;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;f orum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=9697189)

If you try it let us know how it worked out for you.

BTW don't derail it with, "I don't think it will work because..." without trying it first. Thanks for reading.

[Boydo]

I am trying something simular, I have stackable trays in my overflow compartment filled with 4 kgs of bio max, a gallon of ehfi substrat, and 4 kg's of seachem matrix, I diverted a small amount of the water through it. It may have some effect on nitrates
( only be using it for 3 weeks now), like the Bakki Shower systemhttp://www.makc.com/bakki.pdf which reduces nitrates, by oxygen rich ammonia removal. There are many ways to reduce nitrates, the hard part is finding a way that makes a difference and is economical. Ponds that use the bakki shower overflow 10% water daily, and using the shower nitrates are undetecable, very immpressive for a koi pond. I agree using tech like this and the other post fsc46 put up, you can use some of this info to build something small and effiecent, That Works.

Anyone else got ideas or info.

[johnptc]

the koi thread is a must read.........if its correct the bottom line is a well design trickle tower with bioballs removes nitrates.......can it be that simple ????

they seem to have done a lot of work on it..........would like to hear on mfk from someone who uses a trickle tower to remove nitrates !!!!!!!!!!!11:confused: :confused:



I found this thread on a koi forum. It looks like a mod to a wet/dry filter. I haven't tried it so I can't answer any questions. Here's the link: wet/dry mod (http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=3071;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;f orum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=9697189)

If you try it let us know how it worked out for you.

BTW don't derail it with, "I don't think it will work because..." without trying it first. Thanks for reading.

[wizzin]

I read that koi thread a while ago. Just a good piece of advice to everyone here, look into the Koi stuff!!! The big buggers parallel our monsters in terms of keeping. The filtration techniques these guys have been using is perfect for our big stuff. I think on some of the tanks we have, you have to look at ponds as the source for filtration etc. The information on biomedia req'd for koi revolves around feeding, which is what I think we have to look at for our monsters too. The rules of thumb for 55gal tanks just fall down.

I just want to share this as I about busted a nut reading this thread. My friend says that everytime you have something wrong with you, it's DSB. Meaning Dreaded, Sem...., buildup. :D

I know this would fall under refugium, but has anyone used red mangroves?

Lastly, Jardiniboy, can you post a little more info on your setup? How does it work? How is it working?

[JardiniBoy]

I am trying something simular, I have stackable trays in my overflow compartment filled with 4 kgs of bio max, a gallon of ehfi substrat, and 4 kg's of seachem matrix, I diverted a small amount of the water through it. It may have some effect on nitrates
( only be using it for 3 weeks now), like the Bakki Shower systemhttp://www.makc.com/bakki.pdf which reduces nitrates, by oxygen rich ammonia removal. There are many ways to reduce nitrates, the hard part is finding a way that makes a difference and is economical. Ponds that use the bakki shower overflow 10% water daily, and using the shower nitrates are undetecable, very immpressive for a koi pond. I agree using tech like this and the other post fsc46 put up, you can use some of this info to build something small and effiecent, That Works.

Anyone else got ideas or info.

I've also been thinking of doing a smaller version of a Bakki Shower with Bacteria House in my overflow. They claim you don't even need to pre-filter with wool ... just raw water gushing onto the BH. It would be quite easy to accomplish in a normal overflow, but it is quite.

[JardiniBoy]

Lastly, Jardiniboy, can you post a little more info on your setup? How does it work? How is it working?

Hey bro :D

I have a 6.5x2x2 display tank with a 4' sump. Water to the sump via an underflow/overflow system with 5 layers of wool/foam and bioballs in the overflow compartment. More foam, ceramic biomedia and coral chips in the sump.

There are 2 coil denitrators running from the sump that have been set up for a few months, and I've just installed a RDSB.

The water looks good. The display tank is always clean ... sh1t and debris sucked from the bottom by the underflow, surface skimmed by the overflow and no bubbles collecting from the top. The fish all look great and eat well.

I bought my first test kit last week ... nitrate! :D Tested my tank water and there is a considerable amount of nitrate. On the chart, the color for 20, 50 and 100ppm is almost the same and similar to the color I got (but not the same) so I'm not sure exactly what it is ... still need some more practice with it. The one denitrator's output looks the same as the main tank's, but the other's looked lighter.

It's a Nutrafin test kit by Hagen ... does anyone have any recommendations for using this kit?

Thanks! :D

[johnptc]

YOU HAVE FOUND THE SAME THING I FOUND.....YOU NEED WATER CHANGES....I CHANGE ALOT OF WATER TO HOLD THE NITRATES AT 20 PPM....MORE REASON TO FIGURE THE NITRATE REMOVAL BY FILTER !!!

I AM IMPRESSED WITH THE RESULTS CLAIMED BY THE KOI KEEPERS......:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:



Hey bro :D

I have a 6.5x2x2 display tank with a 4' sump. Water to the sump via an underflow/overflow system with 5 layers of wool/foam and bioballs in the overflow compartment. More foam, ceramic biomedia and coral chips in the sump.

There are 2 coil denitrators running from the sump that have been set up for a few months, and I've just installed a RDSB.

The water looks good. The display tank is always clean ... sh1t and debris sucked from the bottom by the underflow, surface skimmed by the overflow and no bubbles collecting from the top. The fish all look great and eat well.

I bought my first test kit last week ... nitrate! :D Tested my tank water and there is a considerable amount of nitrate. On the chart, the color for 20, 50 and 100ppm is almost the same and similar to the color I got (but not the same) so I'm not sure exactly what it is ... still need some more practice with it. The one denitrator's output looks the same as the main tank's, but the other's looked lighter.

It's a Nutrafin test kit by Hagen ... does anyone have any recommendations for using this kit?

Thanks! :D

[JardiniBoy]

Why are you shouting bro? :D

As I have said above ... I know about changing water and do it every week. I'm not trying to get out of water changes, I just want to control nitrates some other way so that I can do smaller weekly water changes and thus have a more stable system.

[johnptc]

me too !!!!!! thats why this is a great thread :headbang2 :headbang2 :headbang2


Why are you shouting bro? :D

As I have said above ... I know about changing water and do it every week. I'm not trying to get out of water changes, I just want to control nitrates some other way so that I can do smaller weekly water changes and thus have a more stable system.

[FishSkins]

The significance of nitrates in the aquarium is arguably less understood by fish keepers than the effect of ammonia and nitrites. Although nitrates are not directly lethal in the way ammonia or nitrites are, over time high levels of nitrate have a negative effect on fish, plants and the aquarium environment in general.

Effects on Fish
Fish will feel the impact of nitrates by the time the levels reach 100 ppm, particularly if levels remain there. The resulting stress leaves the fish more susceptible to disease and inhibits their ability to reproduce. High nitrate levels are especially harmful to fry and young fish, and will affect their growth. Furthermore, conditions that cause elevated nitrates often cause decreased oxygen levels, which further stress the fish.

Other Effects
Elevated nitrates are a significant contributor to undesirable algae growth.


Nitrate levels as low as 10 ppm will promote algae growth. Algae blooms in newly setup tanks are usually due to elevated nitrate levels. Although plants utilize nitrates, if nitrates rise faster than the plants can use them, the plants can become overgrown with algae, ultimately leading to their demise.

Where Do Nitrites Come From?
Nitrates are a by-product of nitrite conjugation during the latter stages of the nitrogen cycle, and will be present in some degree in all aquariums. Detritus, decaying plant material, dirty filters, over-feeding, and over-stocking the tank, all contribute to increased production of nitrates.

Water used to fill the aquarium often has nitrates in it. In the United States, drinking water may have nitrates as high as 40 ppm. Before adding water to your tank test, it for nitrates so you know if the levels are unusually high in your water source. If nitrates are above 10 ppm, you should consider other water sources that are free of nitrates.

Desired Level
In nature nitrates remain very low, generally well below 5 ppm. In freshwater aquariums nitrates should be kept below 50 pm at all times, preferably below 25 ppm. If you are breeding fish, or are battling algae growth, keep nitrates below 10 ppm.

How to Reduce Nitrates
Unlike ammonia and nitrites, the bacteria that remove nitrates do not like oxygen rich environments. Therefore, conventional filters do not harbor the bacteria that remove nitrates. Although special filters exist that will remove nitrates, such devices are usually expensive compared to other filtration units.


Keep the tank clean – Waste ultimately produces nitrates. Cleaner tanks produce fewer nitrates in the first place.


Don’t overfeed the fish – Overfeeding is a significant contributor to excess nitrates and other undesirable wastes, such as phosphates.


Water changes – Performing regular water changes with water that has little or no nitrates will lower the overall nitrate level in the tank. RO/DI water is an excellent choice for keeping nitrate levels low.


Keep live plants – Live plants utilize nitrates, and will help keep nitrates in check.


Use nitrogen removing filter media – Instead of an expensive denitrator or special filter, use special media in the filter you have. Although they will not lower nitrates dramatically, if used together with other methods the net result will be beneficial.
i did this just because it's there !

[wizzin]

Um. Didn't you just copy paste that from here: http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/nitrates.htm

????

[skiwez]

I've been following this thread and doing some of my own research and have a question. I've read on several sites that plants help reduce nitrates, but have also read the opposite that while plants are beneficial to a tank they have little affect on nitrate uptake. Is it possible that the reason nitrates go down on a planted tank is because they generally have a fairly deep subtrate where the anarobic bacteria could live?

[DeLgAdO]

I've been following this thread and doing some of my own research and have a question. I've read on several sites that plants help reduce nitrates, but have also read the opposite that while plants are beneficial to a tank they have little affect on nitrate uptake. Is it possible that the reason nitrates go down on a planted tank is because they generally have a fairly deep subtrate where the anarobic bacteria could live?

i suspect that in planted tanks there is little to no nitrate in the system to begin with, but when plants are introduced and fish begin producing waste the plants take in the ammonia and encorperate it in there tissue before nitrifying bacteria have the chance to break it down.

the small percentage that does get turned into nitrate its taken up by the plants as well, simply because there is so little of it.

when you introduce plants into high nitrate level water they will be overwhelmed and start to die, high nitrate levels will kill plants.

[FishSkins]

Um. Didn't you just copy paste that from here: http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/nitrates.htm

????
yes i did ... it pretty much tells all there is needed to know the only thing i would have added would be using different types of chemicals to rid them, there are so many to choose from

[johnptc]

nitrate is plant fertilizer.......... plants eat the nitrates and grow.....so i am told.

[FishSkins]

nitrate is plant fertilizer.......... plants eat the nitrates and grow.....so i am told.
yep... any form of nitrogen

[DeLgAdO]

nitrate is plant fertilizer.......... plants eat the nitrates and grow.....so i am told.

correct....to an extent......