View Full Version : Acclimating LARGE Fish
Heres a few things to keep in mind when working with shipping fish over long distances. Acclimation for these fish is a bit different then your usual bag ride home. The key is ammonia poisoning on the fish, and it's important that understand that *Ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH, and the warmer the water*. When a large fish is shipped, it is bound to secrete ammonia into the bag. Fish waste is acidic, and will therefor make the water 'acidic' and drive the pH down. When a larger fish is in a bag for a lengthy amount of time, it uses alot of oxygen. After much of the oxygen has been used, Carbon Dioxide will begin to build up in the bag. If you have ever worked with planted aquariums, you would know that cO2 will drive down the pH. So the longer a large fish is 'breathing' in the bag, the more co2 is present, which means the lower the pH will drop. When a fish is shipped, it is also bound to drop a few degrees in temprature, making ammonia less lethal as well. So after the combination of all these things, the pH has been driven down, the fish is lacking oxygen, and the water has been cooled slightly, all of these things making ammonia less toxic.
Now lets keep these things in mind, and now go over what happens when a fish arrives. Don't ever float the bag, as it restricts oxygen exchange which happens between the bag plastic and the outter atmosphere. It also slowly raises the temprature.
Within 30-60 seconds of the bag being opened, a gas exchange occurs between the waters surface and the water. This is a sudden increase in oxygen, which depletes co2 levels in the bag, thus making the pH make a sudden jump. With this sudden jump in pH, the ammonia immediately becomes more toxic. So you take the advice of many, and begin to drip acclimate. More than likely, your tank's pH is going to be higher than the pH of the bag water (due to fish wastes).. While dripping tank water, you will slowly be raising the pH, which at the same time slowly increase the toxicity of the ammonia. Also drip acclimation will create a slow rise in temprature, which will even further increase the toxicity of the ammonia. So when you think you are doing the proper thing by slowly adjusting your fish to it's new environment, you are actually slowly burning the skin and gills due to ammonia poisoning.
Heres how we acclimate(xaqua), and this have been proven to work for many others. The key is to get the fish out of the bag water, ASAP. We often use scissors to cut open the bag, and immediately (within 3 seconds) squirt an undetermined amount of AmQuel (ammonia detoxifier), as well as NovAqua (water conditioner).. We also use a squirt of these products in the tank in which the fish will be placed, as to best match the 'chemically adjusted water paramaters'. When you swiftly squirt a shot of AmQuel into the bag, it instantly detoxifies the ammonia by chemically binding it with a sulfur based solution. This allows you to net the fish, or strain the water out, in order to calmly place the fish into its new home.
I have read a scientific report which stated fish usually take 6-8 days to acclimate to temprature changes. The key to temprature change in tropical fish is that they never take a sudden DROP in temprature. It is safe to acclimate a fish into a tank that is much warmer than the tank it is coming from. Tropical fish can often take a jump of 3-10 degrees with no problem, however a drop in temprature over 2-3 degrees can prove lethal.
pH/hardness.. This is always an interesting subject, as we hear so many conflicting stories. It is true that FW Stingrays come from the soft waters of the amazon, however they do very well in hard water from what we have found. We acclimate our stingrays from a pH of 7.0, directly to a pH of 7.4-7.6. Many fish can withstand a temprature swing, or a pH swing in the wild. The thing that wild fish cannot tolerate is the presence of Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. In the wild, fish never have come in contact with any of these 3 'pollutants', however they will experience pH swings and temp changes on a daily basis. It is my belief, as well as the belief of many others, that it is more beneficial to not tamper with the water parameters. It has been proven that it is better to do large frequent water changes, as most fish will adapt to the water paramaters of your tap water source. We change the water 2-3x a day, so we have no time for RO units or chemically adjusting the water, because we believe that 'Stability' is the most important paramaters, rather than matching ideal conditions.
John Kuhns invented the product AmQuel to acclimate wild apistos when they were first being introduced to the hobby many years ago. He developed this 'ammonia' binding chemical to stop ammonia burn from the gas exchange that happens when the bag is first opened. Heres a LINK about the 'Squirt and Dump' acclimation process, as well as more acclimation info.. (http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/acclimatizing.html)
Another great link... (http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Acclimate.htm)
We also use a product called 'Chemi-Pure' which seems to help alot with acclimation. It helps to keep the fish from going into a state of shock, especially when there is a large different in pH/hardness. When acclimating a rare new fish, it is always a good idea to spend some extra money to 'clarify' your water with some Chemi-pure first. (Works great for Tigrinums.)
Keep in mind this concept is for fish with a LENGTHY bag ride (12+ hours), or large fish which secrete alot of waste.
I hope some people find this knowledge helpful.
Miles
cuban jey
08-26-2005, 2:41 AM
awesome read miles i thank you and my shipped fish in the future thank you
Loubard
08-26-2005, 6:17 AM
Indeed!
Miles GREAT stuff dude!
Moderators - i think this would be a good piece for the ARTICLE section of this site as i dont think there is anything there yet!
Gr8KarmaSF
08-26-2005, 9:59 AM
wow, gr8 info :) thank you for educating us!
repair
08-26-2005, 11:11 AM
:thumbsup:
I'm going to print this..... maybe give it as part of a presentaion at one of my aquarium meetings...... of course I'll give you credit.
Thanks for taking the time to share with the rest of us...... I've allways thought that getting them out of the bag was more important that worring over a PH change. I had never added the ammonia detox when I opened the bags but I will start now.
:thumbsup:
The TRUST
08-26-2005, 12:43 PM
Very good read Miles. Definitely will keep it in mind in the future. Do you think other products that neutralize ammonia like PRIME will also work?
bluedempsey
08-26-2005, 12:58 PM
miles you are like a book of knowledge :clap
:thumbsup:
rayman45
08-26-2005, 2:00 PM
great read :thumbsup:
so rather then doing the drip method after adding amquel i should just dump my ray in the tank?
i think rays are the main factor here as everyone makes them seem like they die at the slightest ajustment of ph.....
Very good read Miles. Definitely will keep it in mind in the future. Do you think other products that neutralize ammonia like PRIME will also work?
Prime and Ammo-Lock both work the same! We have used both.
I prefer the AmQuel+ and NovAqua+ at the same time however. The neutralizing of heavy metals with both conditioners at the same time, will make both the bag water and the tank water hopefully closer in water paramaters. Not to mention all of the new stuff that NovAqua+ claims to do with anti-virus, echinacea, and vitamin supplements added to it. It is however a much better 'slime coat enhancer' than Stress Coat, because it's not aloe vera based. The only other conditioner we use is aquarium salt, depending on the fish and situation.
so rather then doing the drip method after adding amquel i should just dump my ray in the tank?
That is what we do, just make sure your not making a HUGE pH jump, or hardness jump, which could be even more important. Use Chemi-Pure for a day before you add it to your tank, if you can.. Don't let any of the bag water go into the tank if you can.. Just drain out 80-90% of the bag water, and try to gently let the ray swim out of the bag. Then you should try to offer him food to trigger his eating response so hopefully he settles in.. (Blackworms/earthworms awaiting..) Use AmQuel and NovAqua in both the bag, and the tank water. Try to get the ray out of the bag within 1-2 minutes of it being opened. 'Squirt, Dump, and Go'.. We unload 20 boxes of fish real fast ;)
i think rays are the main factor here as everyone makes them seem like they die at the slightest ajustment of ph.....
We acclimate them from 7.0 to 7.4-7.6. They seem to do real well, but we also make sure to never have ammonia/nitrite present in the tanks. I think some people assume its the big jump in pH, but infact they were burning the rays gills by 'slowly adjusting the pH' to the proper environment.
If anything, find out what the pH of the water is in the tank that the ray is coming from. Try to match this for the first few weeks, then adjust it slowly to your water source. This can be tough if you need to do alot of water changes, things just won't be stable.
The problem is, when you fiddle with RO units, and possibly have low alkalinity, even the slightest bit of ammonia will cause your pH to crash. Also, when you use these chemicals that are supposed to 'Lower pH' and 'Lower Hardness', which I never understood how you could use a chemical to remove hardness in water.. but anyways these Chemicals will create a 'rollercoaster' effect on your pH, especially with every water change. This wont happen if you are extremely tedious about matching water conditions, but even this can be difficult for experts.
bluedempsey
08-26-2005, 4:32 PM
Miles what is the ph in your pools?
i want to match it for the ray you are sending me
thanks miles
i just worry as the seller is questionable
find me those histrix lol
Miles what is the ph in your pools?
i want to match it for the ray you are sending me
7.4-7.6, sometimes higher.. With a hardness of 120-150ppm.. I wouldn't mess with it much if you can.. Do extra water changes for the first few weeks he is in ;) Hopefully he does well! Im really crossing my fingers!
bluedempsey
08-26-2005, 5:15 PM
7.4-7.6, sometimes higher.. With a hardness of 120-150ppm.. I wouldn't mess with it much if you can.. Do extra water changes for the first few weeks he is in ;) Hopefully he does well! Im really crossing my fingers!
how was he acting while he was there?
bpeerso
09-15-2005, 12:50 AM
Cool fish
Miles
05-03-2008, 11:08 AM
Bump for good info ;)
BraveheartCalif
05-15-2008, 1:31 AM
I think this post needs a disclaimer.
I know this is an old post. But I would not try this on an expensive fish. Even places like public aquariums dont deploy such methods. Sorry but it sounds nice in theory. But ive never ever lost a fish doing a drip method with a airhose. And people i know who collect very fish would never do this either. You try this on a sensitive ray and it will be lost for sure. Perhaps doing a small small squirt of AmQuel+ and NovAqua in the bag to deal with the amonia is fine. Then do a drip w. an airhose etc. But to dump an expensive fish of into a tank like that noway.
HPIZZLE
07-19-2008, 1:18 AM
that makes so much sense. thanks a ton!:)
Miles
07-19-2008, 10:04 AM
I think this post needs a disclaimer.
I know this is an old post. But I would not try this on an expensive fish. Even places like public aquariums dont deploy such methods. Sorry but it sounds nice in theory. But ive never ever lost a fish doing a drip method with a airhose. And people i know who collect very fish would never do this either. You try this on a sensitive ray and it will be lost for sure. Perhaps doing a small small squirt of AmQuel+ and NovAqua in the bag to deal with the amonia is fine. Then do a drip w. an airhose etc. But to dump an expensive fish of into a tank like that noway.
It's funny that people still cling onto mythology when they have scientific evidence right in front of them.
Do you think rapid pH swings occur in the Amazon? Ever heard of the rainy season or flooded forest? :D
This is an old post, but a goodie. Lots of good technical information. I have used this method with lots of high dollar fish as well as others. Would you consider a Tigrinus a high dollar sensitive fish? They never died from squirt and dump acclimation.
You can try the drip method if you want, but it clearly explains why this is detrimental and why getting the fish out of the tainted water is 100x more important than slowly adjusting them to new water parameters. FW fish are adaptable, especially out of the wild. Drip acclimating small fish or fish delivered short distances might be great 'piece of mind' (still mythology) but if you understand water chemistry and what goes on when fish are shipped you will agree that removing them from ammonia is more beneficial than drip acclimating.
Drip acclimation was created years ago as a way to acclimate sensitive fish.. There is no scientific research behind it's benefits (link me? I dare you) and it was a 'hunch' practice done by fish store owners in an attempt to reduce losses from shipping. Sadly, most methods are obsolete because the squirt and dump method is the best, although seeming the most impractical, especially at that time. Most fish don't die from pH shock, they die from Ammonia poisoning.. but people who don't understand water quality very well (but think they are experts, ie: oldskool LFS owners) will point the blame on a pH swing.
The same people who preached the mythology of drip acclimation, also came up with nobel prize winners such as 'Fish only grow to the size of their environment', and 'Don't do too big of a water change, it kills off your good bacteria', and the ever classic 'Oscars need live feeder fish to stay healthy'..
Sounds like solid advice to me :thumbsup:
duke33
07-19-2008, 10:15 AM
Good stuff. Thanks Miles.
bassman24
08-01-2008, 1:52 PM
Very useful information! Thanks!:thumbsup:
Camphilophus
08-01-2008, 2:27 PM
not saying I'm right, just asking but.. Wouldn't it be a better idea to squirt the chemicals into the bag, pour them into a bucket (with the bag water) and then drip acclimate them? If the temperature of the water you're drip acclimating is the issue you could always let a bucket sit out over night to let it get room temperature which would be closer to the temperature of the bag and wouldn't create a ammonia spike. You could also add a air pump to the bucket you're drip acclimating the fish into.
I guess I just don't understand the whole "dump him in the tank" if you're adding chemicals to remove the ammonia anyways. I've never dealt with shipped fish yet, the most my fish have had to endure is a 2 hour car ride. I'm glad I saw this post though in case I ever decide to have fish shipped.
and this post should be a sticky!
Miles
08-10-2008, 10:52 AM
not saying I'm right, just asking but.. Wouldn't it be a better idea to squirt the chemicals into the bag, pour them into a bucket (with the bag water) and then drip acclimate them? If the temperature of the water you're drip acclimating is the issue you could always let a bucket sit out over night to let it get room temperature which would be closer to the temperature of the bag and wouldn't create a ammonia spike. You could also add a air pump to the bucket you're drip acclimating the fish into.
Additional stress (moving it to a bucket) and prolonging the fish to dirty shipping water is much more detrimental than sudden shift in pH or temperature. Adding an airstone is a nice thought but the increase in O2 and decreased in Co2 will bring up the pH (toxicity) even faster.
People act like freshwater fish don't ever have sudden swings in pH and temperature. They live in RIVERS and with rainy seasons comes major changes.
Saltwater fish are a much different story, but still many of the same concepts. The ocean has gone unchanged for thousands of years. River systems change everyday.
koop171
09-17-2008, 2:07 AM
good info I will have to put this to use once I get my big tank running and start ordering fish. Thanks
justintrask
12-09-2008, 1:21 PM
Absolutely great info. I thought I was doing it right the whole time! Good to know making a transition to MFK
badisbadis101
12-09-2008, 5:49 PM
Just read this, and i agree 100%. I switch fish between tanks with different temps all the time, and possibly different pH levels (i just use tap water, so i don't know) without ever having problems.
However, i do not keep saltwater fish, but it would make sense to me that drip acclimation would be important to them due to the fact that the ocean is extremely stable, and rivers change constantly.
Danger_Chicken
12-10-2008, 8:50 PM
Additional stress (moving it to a bucket) and prolonging the fish to dirty shipping water is much more detrimental than sudden shift in pH or temperature. Adding an airstone is a nice thought but the increase in O2 and decreased in Co2 will bring up the pH (toxicity) even faster.
I'm not knocking it because it's usually how I do it, but the one flaw I see in your logic against the drip method is that fresh water is being added to dilute the shipping water and if ammonia netualizer has been added it's not an issue as the water temp and ph adjust to the main tank. Same goes for an airstone.
coreyweinkoetz
01-30-2009, 2:27 AM
Also it would be faster with less contact time with the bag water if when you cut it open instead of putting the chemicals in the bag just dump out the bag in a net. The time it takes to make the bag water safe instead you could make the bag water gone! how is it that amquel bag water is safer than no bag water ?
I hold the bags at an angle over a large net over a garbage can
I cut the bottom corner off so the only air bag water fish contact time is the time it takes for the fish and water to fall 6-8 inches to the bottom of the net then I flip the net over in the tank the fish go from bag to tank in 2 seconds
Can you tell me why this is wrong and why I should be waiting to mix the amquel into the bag water and for it to take affect then just dumping it all out anyway ??? It seems to me to be better off to cut out the middle man and and go straight for the tank and the next bag. It sounds like your just pouring a lot of amquel and money right down the drain ?
Do you own stock in amquel:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
:j/k:
Can you please tell me what it is I'm missing here and What justifies all the money in amquel and what makes your way better than mine Thanks
all_or_nothin
02-12-2009, 4:39 PM
i think i went cross eyed reading that
CVHoover
05-18-2009, 11:23 PM
Thanks for the information!
jschall
05-19-2009, 2:59 PM
Ok, so you squirt chemicals into the bag and then immediately net the fish into the tank?
How is this different from just netting the fish straight into the tank? As soon as the fish is in the tank, it's no longer in contact with the ammonia that was in the bag.
WarrendaFish
05-19-2009, 4:29 PM
Good Read. Thank you
WarrendaFish
05-19-2009, 4:32 PM
Since you are so knowledgeable... May I ask a question? I have a 5 year old Oscar, He's about 13" and lives in a 125 gal tank with some tiger barbs and danio's to snack on. I do my weekly water changes and checks. The water seems fine but, my Oscar has been very inactive for the past 2 days. His appetite had diminished and he basically sits at the bottom and does nothing. He leans a little as well. Any suggestions?
Pomatomus
07-11-2009, 3:01 PM
My roommate wrote his thesis on temperature threshold of invasive Mayan cichlids from the Everglades. He mentioned that it is physiologically MORE stressful for a fish to acclimate to a higher temperature than a lower temperature, due to the dulling effects of cooler water on the nervous system.
Also, is there any evidence that supports the idea that moving a fish to another container (after removing the ammonia) and then performing drip acclimation is more stressful than dumping a fish in? That seems counter-intuitive because a temperature change is quite stressful (possibly more than pH). I work at a marine laboratory and we put everything on a drip; and I can't recall losing a fish soon-after introduction or during acclimation with the exception of one naso tang which was covered in ich.
Make no mistake, this is a very helpful post; it just raised a couple of questions!
sujay.narayan
07-24-2009, 11:30 AM
extremely interesting... my LFS guy kind of told me the very oppsite... take time... intermingle the waters... adjust temperatur and other parameters...
and there's nothing about anythin to neutralise the ammonia
i think i might have to read this post again!!
thanks
frontosablkrhom
09-13-2009, 9:54 PM
good read..... very informative
cvermeulen
10-26-2009, 12:19 AM
Miles I yield to your experience, as surely it is greater than mine, however your evidence is anecdotal, not scientific.
I have to agree with the others who have mentioned what you have not - you are diluting the ammonia in the bag with "fresh" tank water. Particularly if you have put an ammonia neutralizer in the bag such as amquel, or Prime, there should really be no downside to subsequent drip acclimation. You raise some excellent points on water chemistry but the addition of water conditioner negates all the concerns you have raised. So really what is the harm in a drip acclimation, so long as the appropriate measures are taken to detoxify the ammonia?
I'm chiming in because I'm in the situation where I'm moving my fish (large fish) a long way, but I'm also moving them from soft water to hard water. A PH swing of under 7 to over 8, and a GH of almost nothing to near the top of the chart is just not something I want to risk "netting and dumping" with. However raising the pH and affecting the NH4+ in the water after a long car ride is also a bad thing to be sure. My plan currently is to dose the transport water with Prime and test it for ammonia, re-dosing as necessary, then drip acclimate, and THEN move the fish to their new hardwater tank.
I suppose one major question left to answer would be - how well do water conditioners work? Do they actually remove the ammonia they say they should? How fast? I've noticed before that when I use prime to condition water going back into my tank (a cycling tank, so there's ammonia present) That the tank water still has ammonia in it after a water change and dosing with prime, so what gives? Is it all just advertising?
beccabee
10-26-2009, 5:07 PM
Wow very informative!
cvermeulen
10-27-2009, 12:36 AM
I attempted a very grassroots experiment last night, whereby I took two vials of tank water, and added a drop of prime to one, then performed an ammonia test. Unfortunately the sulfur salts in the Prime totally messed up the test - the water turned dark brown. Oh well, was worth a try. I may try it again with something resembling an appropriate dosage of prime.