The General Debate

[Aribenlaw]

I've heard a lot of people both for and against hybrids. People seem to be rather adamant either way, which has something to do with sample bias, but I don't understand the fundamental question of it. What is the argument against hybrids? It seems to be a rather simple act of domestication. While I can understand viewing the hobby as a science and wanting to keep species pure, domestication is how the pet trade works. Anyone have thoughts?

[ewurm]

Apparently hybrids are OK, depending on type of animal. Dogs and Cats are OK, but fish are not. That's the feeling I get from other members making the argument against hybrids. I don't care much either way. I like some hybrids, some I don't.

[REDKID!!!]

i think ppl should keep their opion to their self... unless it is productive

[fishbait912]

i think ppl should keep their opion to their self... unless it is productive

that wasnt productive...this is a debate...


i have no problems with hybrids...they are still fish

[softturtle]

Apparently hybrids are OK, depending on type of animal. Dogs and Cats are OK, but fish are not. That's the feeling I get from other members making the argument against hybrids. I don't care much either way. I like some hybrids, some I don't.

I am the same way. I like some hybrids and there are some I don't. The same goes for natural occuring species.

[REDKID!!!]

he said what are your thoughts and i told mine.. i have no prpb with hybrids either i have 3 of my own soon to get another

[pirahna1950]

The only real debate is if we are speeding up a natural occurance or unbalancing mother nature. Tropical fish were never intended for aquariums, they are WILD creatures. Hybrids will actualy help put the eccological balance back in place so long as morons don't introduce them into the wild. They would also reduce the high price of fish in the long run. Nay sayers need to read up on the effects of harvesting wild fish in their natural habitat. :D

[GreatGems]

My thoughts are positive on hybrid i am from Ontario Canada so they dont impact our eco system like they do in Thialand and Florida. I think its interesting how fish from other sides of the plant will spawn with each other.
there are hybrids in every aspect of the pet market Cats, Dogs it goes on. when it comes to Aquariums they are pretty confind ( hence your Tank) i enjoy breeding fish and actually going to try a convict red jeweled hybrid mainly because my Male Jewel killed the female last night. Now for those that are all for Pure breed fish get real you dont think some african are crosses that happened in the lakes. Some of my favorite Hybrids are the new parrots they have. But i love SRT's they are amazing fish you can call them almost a work of art it takes time and hard work to create top quality hybrids. the only thing i am against is dying of fish.

Joshua

[Aribenlaw]

It sounds like most people have similar opinions so far. I wish we could get some hardcore hybrid nay-sayers to weigh in.

[Brooklynella]

We need sharks with friken laser beams on their heads.:)

The Hybrid arguement is pretty silly, IMO. I mean, any Mutt is technically a hybrid. Should I kill Fido because he isn't a full bred ball licker?
Fish really aren't any different.
As for the tainting of pure wild species, I don't necessarily buy this arguement either. Animals evolve (Unless you are from one of those states that teaches that evolution is the work of satan. In that case, GOD allows animals to evolve..) and nobody could truly prove that nature isn't creating it's own hybrids anyway.*shrug*

It sounds like most people have similar opinions so far. I wish we could get some hardcore hybrid nay-sayers to weigh in.


Looking for a fight, huh?:)
One thing I don't agree with is the asking prices of some of these hybrids. This goes for snakes, lizards and any other cross bred mutation out there.
IMO, a hybrid should cost less that a pure.

[guppy]

Fido is generally not a hybrid, different breeds are still the same species. Dingo,jackal,coyote, or wolf crossbred with dog would be a hybrid. Asian spotted cat and domestic cat mixed is also a hybrid (sold as bengals). Cat mixed with dog would be a Chimaera, and probably very confused and tempted to chase itself.
Human mixed with baboon would run for senate.

[Brooklynella]

Fido is generally not a hybrid, different breeds are still the same species. Dingo,jackal,coyote, or wolf crossbred with dog would be a hybrid. Asian spotted cat and domestic cat mixed is also a hybrid (sold as bengals). Cat mixed with dog would be a Chimaera, and probably very confused and tempted to chase itself.
Human mixed with baboon would run for senate.



...Or look like Oprah.:D

[Sunpoe]

I think hybrids have their place in the hobby but dealers definately should not try to pass off hybrids as pure, natural fish. And we should never put hybrids back into the wild or any other aquarium fish for that matter. But saying that hybrids especially Flowerhorns and Red Texans are really cool.

[guppy]

Blood Parrots, however are not cool, a pretty good # of them can barely feed themselves.

[Jesse]

These threads invariably come up and I think there's a general consensus regarding the following:

1) Some people dislike hybrids.

2) Some people like hybrids.

3) Some people don't understand the difference between a species and a breed.

It happens every time. :D

[big train]

I think hybrids have their place in the hobby but dealers definately should not try to pass off hybrids as pure, natural fish. And we should never put hybrids back into the wild or any other aquarium fish for that matter. But saying that hybrids especially Flowerhorns and Red Texans are really cool.

I think sunpoe really nailed the issue there:iagree: most anti-hybrid people got that way because they got a fish that was mislabeled, misunderstud,or they where down rite lied to about what species a paticular fish is.I like hybrids and have alot of different crosses i would like to try i love the red shock flowerhorn and the srt's also and releasing anything back to the wild is just iggnorance that the good folks here at M.F.K. are striving to change with proper info.:grinno:

[Aribenlaw]

Improper labeling seems to be a large problem in most of aquaria. Perhaps some extra stringency in this category would make hybrids easier to accept. I feel as though hybrids might be a good way to enlarge the hobby. By tailoring fish to the wants of the general populace, interest can be increased. While comparing fish to dog breeds is an improper anology on a genetic level, the desired effect is still the same. I have to agree that blood parrots and other fish who's boutique modifications have left them incapable of basic functions cannot becoem the hobby's norm. While disability is not true of all blood parrots or any hybrid in it's entirety, there is a genuine ethical question as to the limits of modification. Tattooing and dyeing fall into a similar vein. Modification which is painful or damaging to a fish must be regarded as improper if hybrids are to gain widespread acceptance.

[ae2359]

3) Some people don't understand the difference between a species and a breed.
:D

So true.

I already tried to change peoples minds about these fish, not much luck. People will keep the fish they want to keep. As much as I would like to personally detsroy every single one of these fish, it's not going to happen. All I can ask is that everyone involved is this hobby is more responsible about the fish they care for and the people they sell them to.

[rallysman]

I just gave a hybrid away as a pure flowerhorn. Was that wrong?

[señor_pescados_felices]

i just got me a FH not too long ago and its the coolest fish I have ever owned as far as personality and smarts.

[Jesse]

While comparing fish to dog breeds is an improper anology on a genetic level, the desired effect is still the same.
How do you figure? :confused: Selective breeding in dogs to obtain a "purebred" dog often leads to the proliferation of deleterious recessive genes due to inbreeding, something you usually don't have to worry about with mutts. Thus, breeding between dog breeds promotes genetic diversity within a species, e.g. dog (Canis familiaris). That diversity is what usually makes mutts less prone to problems that may plague purebred dogs, e.g., hip dysplasia.

To the contrary, hybridization between species generally does not promote survival. Many hybrid offspring are sterile. For example, mules, a hybrid between a horse (Equus caballus) and a donkey (Equus asinus), are sterile.

[Aribenlaw]

How do you figure? :confused: Selective breeding in dogs to obtain a "purebred" dog often leads to the proliferation of deleterious recessive genes due to inbreeding, something you usually don't have to worry about with mutts. Thus, breeding between dog breeds promotes genetic diversity within a species, e.g. dog (Canis familiaris). That diversity is what usually makes mutts less prone to problems that may plague purebred dogs, e.g., hip dysplasia.

To the contrary, hybridization between species generally does not promote survival. Many hybrid offspring are sterile. For example, mules, a hybrid between a horse (Equus caballus) and a donkey (Equus asinus), are sterile.

You are actually supporting my statement here. I said that it was improper to consider breeding dogs and cross-breeding fish as the same process. The lack of genetic diversity within dog breeds is due to fierce imbreeding in order to maintain traits. I think fish becoming sterile due to hybridization is actually a boon in some regards as it eliminates some of the threat posed by genetic bleeding or a contamination of the species. While I'm not qualified to speak on the intricacies of inter-species genetics, I see no problem posed by the idea.

[Jesse]

You are actually supporting my statement here. I said that it was improper to consider breeding dogs and cross-breeding fish as the same process. The lack of genetic diversity within dog breeds is due to fierce imbreeding in order to maintain traits. I think fish becoming sterile due to hybridization is actually a boon in some regards as it eliminates some of the threat posed by genetic bleeding or a contamination of the species. While I'm not qualified to speak on the intricacies of inter-species genetics, I see no problem posed by the idea.
I see. I misunderstood what your "desired effect" was. You've now revealed your stance in this debate. I happen to agree with you though. :)

[ewurm]

Fido is generally not a hybrid, different breeds are still the same species. Dingo,jackal,coyote, or wolf crossbred with dog would be a hybrid. Asian spotted cat and domestic cat mixed is also a hybrid (sold as bengals). Cat mixed with dog would be a Chimaera, and probably very confused and tempted to chase itself.
Human mixed with baboon would run for senate.

You mean Al Franken? That's exactly my thought.

[Aribenlaw]

I was really hoping to hear from someone firmly against hybrids. Maybe posting this in the hybrid section wasn't the best bait.

[Tongue33]

While I can understand viewing the hobby as a science and wanting to keep species pure, domestication is how the pet trade works. Anyone have thoughts?

From my view of this question in general .. and from what I take from other hobbiests.. Mainly in Cichlids.. Is the fact that Cichlids in general are on a Time scale and they are getting closer the end of it.. Being that they will as most things be extinct and are becoming endangered very rapidly. Allot of Purists Agree with books and Mags in the fact that there should be as much as possible "breeding programs set up for fish to keep the originals in the world"

Here shortly the hybrid price is going to drop thourgh the floor and the Pure breed price is going to sky rocket like with all endagered sp.. And then after That there will end up with no pure specimens and all hybrids.. It is inevitable..

But I believe that Allot of people even the Hybrid crowd would rather see efforts to keep the original Species prolonged from extinction as in the end without pure lines you lose breeding capabilities eventually anyway :) Hence destroying both Pure and Hybrid. :D

I have pulled this stuff as I percieve it from others and discussions with other hobbiests and reading i've done in Mags and and books and online..

And this is not just cichlids but allot of sp. are facing this same dilema of endangerment..

[gomezladdams]

I dont like wierd deformed fish like parrots or ballon mollies but hybrids are ok as long as theyre labeled as such.I keep a line of tiger guppy/endler hybrids,and from what I understand my copper dragon bettas are a result of crossing with imbellis.
On the other hand I go to some trouble to prevent hybrids among my mbuna as that is really frowned upon in the hobby and I have been selling quite a few of them.

[pirahna1950]

From my view of this question in general .. and from what I take from other hobbiests.. Mainly in Cichlids.. Is the fact that Cichlids in general are on a Time scale and they are getting closer the end of it.. Being that they will as most things be extinct and are becoming endangered very rapidly. Allot of Agree with books and Mags in the fact that there should be as much as possible "breeding programs set up for fish to keep the originals in the world"


Why would you say that? Thanks to some less than edjucated hobbiests, many species have been released and thrive in non native locations. If in fact the extinction of some species is eminent, perhaps controled relocation could be the answer? :D

[Jason_S]

I've heard a lot of people both for and against hybrids. People seem to be rather adamant either way, which has something to do with sample bias, but I don't understand the fundamental question of it. What is the argument against hybrids? It seems to be a rather simple act of domestication. While I can understand viewing the hobby as a science and wanting to keep species pure, domestication is how the pet trade works. Anyone have thoughts?

the "hybrid hobby" has nothing to do with domestication. domestication is to tame (an animal), esp. by generations of breeding, to live in close association with human beings as a pet or work animal and usually creating a dependency so that the animal loses its ability to live in the wild.

by domesticating an animal you are making it so the animal is used to living with people and therefore won't view people as a threat. you're altering the animal's thought processes and personality. hybridizing fish has nothing to do with altering personality or getting them used to people. hybridizing fish is done for the sole purpose of making certain fish more attractive or aesthetically pleasing. :)

The only real debate is if we are speeding up a natural occurance or unbalancing mother nature. Tropical fish were never intended for aquariums, they are WILD creatures. Hybrids will actualy help put the eccological balance back in place so long as morons don't introduce them into the wild. They would also reduce the high price of fish in the long run. Nay sayers need to read up on the effects of harvesting wild fish in their natural habitat. :D

you don't have to hybridize fish to keep wild stock from being harvested. actually the truth is quite the opposite...the more hybrids are created the more "pure" lines are tainted by the not-so-ethical hybrid breeders who decide that a certain amount of fry from a spawn don't have the hybrid traits they were looking for, so instead of doing something responsible with those fry, they sell them off as the species they most closely resemble. so, wild stock are harvested more, not less, because of all the hybridization.

We need sharks with friken laser beams on their heads.:)

The Hybrid arguement is pretty silly, IMO. I mean, any Mutt is technically a hybrid. Should I kill Fido because he isn't a full bred ball licker?
Fish really aren't any different.
As for the tainting of pure wild species, I don't necessarily buy this arguement either. Animals evolve (Unless you are from one of those states that teaches that evolution is the work of satan. In that case, GOD allows animals to evolve..) and nobody could truly prove that nature isn't creating it's own hybrids anyway.*shrug*




Looking for a fight, huh?:)
One thing I don't agree with is the asking prices of some of these hybrids. This goes for snakes, lizards and any other cross bred mutation out there.
IMO, a hybrid should cost less that a pure.

yes animals do evolve...over hundreds or even thousands of years. and yes there are naturally occuring hybrids, but only between species that live in close proximity to each other. most of the species that make up a flowerhorn live in different countries so there's no way these hybrids could ever occur in nature. also, it has been documented through studies that fish prefer to spawn with other fish that look the same as they do. even different color morphs of the same species will try to spawn with a mate that is the same color morph if possible. for example, striped midas, if given the choice, will spawn with another striped midas and not a colored midas and vice versa. in the wild, there are usually an abundance of potential mates of the same species and same color morph so naturally occuring hybrids will generally only occur if 2 fish of different species can't find a mate of their own species. bottom line is that man made hybrids have absolutely nothing to do with evolution. in fact, in many cases it has been documented that more than one species have evolved from just one species, not one species evolved from the hybridization of 2 different species. for example, Amphilophus zaliosus evolved from Amphilophus citrinellus. There used to be only the one species (A. citrinellus) but due to newly formed geographic barriers, different feeding habits, different diets, etc. a separate species (A. zaliosus) evolved.

I just gave a hybrid away as a pure flowerhorn. Was that wrong?

nah, heck you can cross just about any 2 central american cichlids and call them "whatever silly name Flowerhorn". :D

I was really hoping to hear from someone firmly against hybrids. Maybe posting this in the hybrid section wasn't the best bait.

I didn't really think so at first, but after this post it does look like you're simply looking for a fight. :nono: There's definitely nothing wrong with a good old fashioned debate, but please don't start threads just to pick a fight.

From my view of this question in general .. and from what I take from other hobbiests.. Mainly in Cichlids.. Is the fact that Cichlids in general are on a Time scale and they are getting closer the end of it.. Being that they will as most things be extinct and are becoming endangered very rapidly. Allot of Agree with books and Mags in the fact that there should be as much as possible "breeding programs set up for fish to keep the originals in the world"

Here shortly the hybrid price is going to drop thourgh the floor and the Pure breed price is going to sky rocket like with all endagered sp.. And then after That there will end up with no pure specimens and all hybrids.. It is inevitable..

But I believe that Allot of people even the Hybrid crowd would rather see efforts to keep the original Species prolonged from extinction as in the end without pure lines you lose breeding capabilities eventually anyway :) Hence destroying both Pure and Hybrid. :D

I have pulled this stuff as I percieve it from others and discussions with other hobbiests and reading i've done in Mags and and books and online..

And this is not just cichlids but allot of sp. are facing this same dilema of endangerment..


Yes, there are some species in the wild that are becoming endangered and facing extinction and there are hobbyists who are trying to set up breeding programs to keep these fish going. that, however, is not the reason most die-hard purists are against hybrids. these 2 topics are very unrelated. Also, I don't think the number of species who are becoming endangered is quite as high as you think it is. I definitely wouldn't say that "all" species are on a time table. The majority of species in the wild are thriving and flourishing if they are allowed to opportunity to.



Now, all that being said, the only way to really have a healthy debate about this subject is to only involve people who are not die-hard one way or the other. the problem with most people who are die-hard purists or die-hard hybridists is that their personal beliefs and opinions usually lead them to presenting flawed arguments. I am not die-hard one way or the other. In general I prefer to keep pure species but I do have one female flowerhorn and I have had an accidental hybrid spawn here and there. when I can I like to keep a few fry from a hybrid spawn just to see how the fry turn out. my biggest pet peave is the unethical hybrid breeders that I alluded to earlier who decide to sell off "low grade" hybrids as a pure species that they most closely resemble. that or the people and fish farmers who are not very educated in fish species and decide to cross 2 species that are similar in appearance (midas and red devil for example) and then mass produce them so that all commercially available "red devils" are actually hybrids. I would very much like the opportunity to decide for myself if I want to buy a hybrid or a pure species but unless I order online I don't have that choice. a good majority of cichlids available from retail outlets are hybrids which is a shame. those who want pure species have to pay a nice chunk of change to order from reputable importers and pay, in some cases, outrageous shipping charges to get these fish. now you might say that many flowerhorn enthusiasts do the same thing. however they don't have to order online because nowadays just about all retail stores have flowerhorns available. no they may not in all cases be some of the really high grade ones but they are available so it is the personal choice of the individual flowerhorn enthusiast to decide wether to buy locally or buy online. purists in most cases don't have that choice. :)

[pirahna1950]

the "hybrid hobby" has nothing to do with domestication. domestication is

by domesticating an animal you are making it so the animal is used to living with people and therefore won't view people as a threat. you're altering the animal's thought processes and personality. hybridizing fish has nothing to do with altering personality or getting them used to people. hybridizing fish is done for the sole purpose of making certain fish more attractive or aesthetically pleasing. :)



you don't have to hybridize fish to keep wild stock from being harvested. actually the truth is quite the opposite...the more hybrids are created the more "pure" lines are tainted by the not-so-ethical hybrid breeders who decide that a certain amount of fry from a spawn don't have the hybrid traits they were looking for, so instead of doing something responsible with those fry, they sell them off as the species they most closely resemble. so, wild stock are harvested more, not less, because of all the hybridization.



Jason,
What your saying doesn't quite make sense. Hybids ARE pets and there fore dependant on their owners. We also breed for specific needs. I've been teaching a convict to be less agressive for 2 years. It can be done. :D

As for Hybrids not reducing wild harvests, I find that confusing. How can more fish on the market support your claim? Unless your going to grow the hobby along with the number of fish available, it just doesn't add up.

For the record, my Red Bellies get unwanted fry. I plan to breed a cross in the future for looks and personality for my own amusement. In the mean time, pure breds are all I care about. Its not a big deal to me one way or another. It would be nice to see FACTUAL arguments from both sides though. :D

[Tongue33]

Like I said.. this is info i perceived to be this way by conversations with other hobbiest and books I've been reading Plus then you throw in My opinion on all of that and you get what I wrote.. Infact Some cichlids are on a time table.. Say like the madagascans..


But anywho.. to talk about the ciclids being thriving in non native brings up the other extinction process of other fish sp... But any time you interfere with something in anyway.. You change it. Which is another reason cichlids thrive .. Their capabilities to adapt to almost any environment that they are thrown in provided certain specs are met.. namely Temp.. But any who.. I believe that "Die hard Purists are not 'All what your description is" but many descriptions.. For many reasons.. And that was just my collective of what I have experienced :)

[Lupin]

...Or look like Oprah.:D
LMAO
:ROFL: :ROFL:
Blood Parrots, however are not cool, a pretty good # of them can barely feed themselves.
:iagree:

[Aribenlaw]

by domesticating an animal you are making it so the animal is used to living with people and therefore won't view people as a threat. you're altering the animal's thought processes and personality. hybridizing fish has nothing to do with altering personality or getting them used to people. hybridizing fish is done for the sole purpose of making certain fish more attractive or aesthetically pleasing. :)



I didn't really think so at first, but after this post it does look like you're simply looking for a fight. :nono: There's definitely nothing wrong with a good old fashioned debate, but please don't start threads just to pick a fight.



To the first-

I think this is a narrow view of both domestication and of the reason people modify fish. I think agression and interaction are valid reasons to modify fish and I find it hard to believe it isnt done with this in mind. Domestication, in a dictionary sense is innapropriate here, but as the hobby evolves I think hybridization could easily lead to a sort of domestication. This isn't prophecy but analysis. I think many people are seeking a similar result to domestication and so I use the term as the next best analog.

To the second-

Not at all. Up til you chimed in there wasn't much in the way of discourse. To have a conversation of any critical weight requires some dissenting opinons. I hadn't heard much in the way of solid counter-argument. Besides, how do you get into a fight on a fish forum? I kind of assumed anyone here took the hobby seriously and acted in accordance with that. I tend to seem agressive both in speech and in writing, but there is nothing of that sentiment. I suppose I don't take kindly to being told I'm picking a fight.

sorry if the post looks funky, I'm still figuring out the quoting tools.

[Bderick67]

Hybrids...:thumbsup:

Hybrid debate...:wall: