Are Datnoids Color Blind?

[h20man]

I am not new to raising and caring for large predatory fish, but this is the first time that I have purchased Datnoids. My datnoids are between 1 and 2 inches, maybe 2 1/2 inches. When I purchased my Datnoids I also purchased about 10 small black molly fry for them to eat. that was about 3 weeks ago, and now the molly fry are about 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the datnoids and have not diminished in numbers.

So this brings up my question for the distinguished members of this forum. Are datnoids color blind? Do datnoids prefer to eat fish and food that have color verses those which are dark in color like the black molly's? Or, are datnoids selective in the kinds of live fish that they eat?

Any thoughts, insights, or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! :)

[Euge]

Although i've only ever owned 2 dats I don't think they prefer brightly coloured live food over not. How long have you had the dats in the tank for?

[AquataHolic420]

my dats are in a growout convict fry tank that i bred... as soon as i introduced 2 of the little dats in the tank. i look in 2 min after and the smaller dat had a big fry in its mouth... it took him 30 min to eat, and he was laying on his side... never since have i seen a dat eat a convict... but they can pick out a guppy in a matter of seconds...

By the way.. the baby Dat is fine...

[Euge]

do fish see in colour?!?!?

[AquataHolic420]

what would make u assume they dont??

If fish dont, why would there be so many colors of lures out there for sale to go fishing with... some days silver doesnt work, somedays firetiger doesnt work. i fully believe fish see in color.. there may be some colorblind fish out there, but there are people colorblind too.. i'd say the normal fish would be able to see color...

Chartreuse, firetiger , and rainbow lures assure me they see COLORS!

[KenyanSandBoa]

what would make u assume they dont??

If fish dont, why would there be so many colors of lures out there for sale to go fishing with... some days silver doesnt work, somedays firetiger doesnt work. i fully believe fish see in color.. there may be some colorblind fish out there, but there are people colorblind too.. i'd say the normal fish would be able to see color...

Chartreuse, firetiger , and rainbow lures assure me they see COLORS!

:iagree:

I think this is a good point. If they were colorblind, all lures would be silver...

[ammerman19]

not necissarily. There are MANY shades to the greyscale.

[AquataHolic420]

not necissarily. There are MANY shades to the greyscale.

what are u colorblind?? why u defending grey colors? u believe whatever you want...

Im positive fish see COLORSSSSSSSSSSSSS, or they wouldnt be able to tell the difference from yellow and chartruese, and i think they can.. go fishing.

[h20man]

Yes excellent point in regards to lures and colors. I to am an avid fisherman, keeping fish keeps the edge off from me getting grumpy from not fishing.

There are tucanares (Peacock Chiclids/ Peacock Bass) here in some of the lakes in Hawaii and talapia as well as convicts are very popular live baits to use to catch them. My experience is convicts seem to suggest that convicts seem to draw more strikes from largemouth bass than tucanares (Peacock Chiclids). I also recognize that regionally some species of fish seem to prefer different types of bait.

I also know that many predator fish are sensitive to sound and movement. In fact, movement often triggers the strike mechanism in the fish and a little added sound helps as well. Case in point, fishermen who catch largemouth bass, many bass fishermen added rattlers to their plastic worm or lure to create additional sound to catch bass.

Some of the more popular soft plastic grub baits used here in Hawaii for some saltwater predatory game fish are black or white and they work quite effectively here. I have found that the white lures seem to work well when the area has a lot of sand.

In regards to using live black mollys as feeder fish for datnoids, movement isn't a problem because the fish is alive. Thus color must play a role in this equation. Convict chiclids are black and grey, thus there is some contrast in their coloration and probably easier for the datnoid to see and eat. For some predators it is suggested that they see only in black and white, and others only can detect movement.

Well my tank with the datnoids is planted, thus I am assuming that the black mollys when they swim among the plants creates enough contrast that a predator can detect it. I am sure that an Oscar would gobble up the black mollies in a few seconds if given the opportunity. I also have the lights on in the tank for about 8 - 12 hours a day for the plants. I have also noticed that the datnoids seem to prefer dimly lit tanks. Thus hunting in low light conditions shouldn't be an issue and detecting blacks and grays shouldn't be much of an issue.

Thank you for your replies and I look forward to gaining additional insight from any and all experiences that you may have regarding this issue.

thus it brings me back to my original question, are datnoids color blind? And then some follow-up questions would be:

Do datnoids just see in black & white or can they see a good portion of the color spectrum?

Any insight that could be given would be awesome! Thanks!!!!! :) please keep the thoughts, ideas, and observations coming!

[Jesse]

My understanding is that most fish see in color with the notable exception of those species that live in environments where the full spectrum of light is not available, e.g., deep water, or where little or no light is available, e.g., caves.

[h20man]

Although i've only ever owned 2 dats I don't think they prefer brightly coloured live food over not. How long have you had the dats in the tank for?
Euge, to answer your question on how long have I had the datnoids in the tank. I have had them in the tank for just over 4 weeks.

[h20man]

My understanding is that most fish see in color with the notable exception of those species that live in environments where the full spectrum of light is not available, e.g., deep water, or where little or no light is available, e.g., caves.
From what I noticed is that datnoids (the ones I have) seem to enjoy ambushing their prey -vs- chasing their prey. Is this a fair and accurate observation?

[h20man]

My understanding is that most fish see in color with the notable exception of those species that live in environments where the full spectrum of light is not available, e.g., deep water, or where little or no light is available, e.g., caves.
So with the understanding that datnoids are tropicical fish and have evolved in an enviroment that has the full light specturm, then they sould be able to detect most colors in the light spectrum. Is that correct?

[Jesse]

My guess is that datnoids do see in some form of color given their natural environment in shallow to moderate depth FW and brackish water/mangrove areas, depending on species. Datnoids are ambush predators and their stripes/bars are used for camouflage when they are lurking through vegetation.

[dustabusta]

I actually read an article that said fish can see colors. In fact it said that fish have better senses than humans. The see, smell, and hear better than us plus they have a sixth sense. The can fell pressure differentials in the water because of thier lateral line.

I think that all fish are intended to see color, but some particular fish (not particular breeds of fish) can be colorblind.

[AquataHolic420]

I actually read an article that said fish can see colors. In fact it said that fish have better senses than humans. The see, smell, and hear better than us plus they have a sixth sense. The can fell pressure differentials in the water because of thier lateral line.

I think that all fish are intended to see color, but some particular fish (not particular breeds of fish) can be colorblind.

agreed!

[Euge]

i dunno i've always heard that dogs only see in black and white. And my thinking dog are more advanced than fish. then i thought well dogs don't really need eye sight as much as fish do. Never mind i'm just rambling. I can think of many reasons why fish would see in colour.

[ammerman19]

Many fish do have the ability to see color. Those that do see color have cones in their eyes. Cones are needed for color perception and at least two cones that are sensitive to two different colors. People with normal sight have three types of cones. One that is sensitive to red, one to green and the other is sensitive to blue. The three kinds of cones in our eyes and the number we have enables us to discern over 300,000 shades of color.

What about fish? Is color important? Earlier, we concluded that visibility is of prime importance. Color often is the critical factor in making a fishes meal visible.

Here are some interesting facts about fish. Catfish have no cones. They posses only rods, which gives them the ability to see bright light as white and the absence of light as black and everything in between as varying shades of gray. Though blind to color catfish have amazing sight. On a moon less cloudy night they can see what we could only see under a crystal clear sky and a full moon. Along with their extremely sensitive night vision Catfish have extraordinary taste/smell. So as most Cat fishers know, good stink bait and a glowing light source next to the bait offers the best chance of landing that big Channel Cat. The color of the glowing bait enhancer is of little consequence to the Catfish. However, color is still very important for increasing the strike zone even though the Catfish is colorblind.

Some colors penetrate dark and murky waters better than others. Catfish see shades very well and a yellow or florescent lure may show up better than a blue or brown lure. Remember that in clear water blue and green light penetrate best and in turbid or muddy waters the warmer colors are better. Glowing bait enhancers do not depend on ambient light for the fish to see it. Choosing the right glowing color will depend upon the water conditions stated above. Generally, a green glow enhancer creates the largest strike zone. However, other glowing colors will be important in creating distinction and visibility against the ambient background. Because glowing bait enhancers provide their own light, the importance of water conditions and available light is greatly diminished.

Most predatory fish have cones that allow them to distinguish colors. Some even have four to five different cones. Incredibly, this means they can see colors we cannot even imagine. Reasons for this increased ability to see a whole new range of colors is still an issue for marine biologists and scientists. It may help identify food or it may have something to do with mating. The jury is still out on this.

We know that some fish see into the ultraviolet range, which is invisible to us. Again, what this invisible light lets them see we don't know but here are some tantalizing clues. Now let's get down and personal.

While fishing the Weber River in Utah, we saw something intriguing. Fishing was slow so like all good fishermen, we began to experiment. Mepps spinners, that had been "hot as a firecracker" a few weeks ago, weren't getting results. So we started digging around the bank for some bait. We found only small night crawlers and in a pool of water there were some marine worms that looked for all intents and purposes like the small night crawlers. The coloring was nearly identical and the size the same. Throwing a small night crawler into the pool brought small fish immediately. They came from all directions and attacked the crawler in a "free for all feeding frenzy". Then tossing one of the marine worms into the water, nothing happened! None of the fish showed any interest in the marine worm even though it wiggled and wriggled just like the night crawler. We threw in another night crawler and it was again attacked vigorously. We tried another marine worm and not a single fish even turned in its direction. They totally ignored the marine worms.

The smell couldn't be the triggering mechanism since the attack on the night crawler came almost instantaneously from all directions including upstream. Smell could not have traveled that far, that fast, and certainly not upstream. The attacks came faster than the smell could have dispersed in the water and the fish that were upstream from any smell responded just as fast and in some cases faster than the downstream fish did. Venturing an opinion, we believe the fish were seeing two differently colored worms. To our eyes they were the same color but because of increased cones in some fishes eyes, we believe the small trout saw colors they liked in the night crawlers and they saw colors they didn't like in the marine worms.

Another incident helps to support the idea that some fish see colors we can't see. While fishing a small stream near Pony, Montana we witnessed something that many fishermen have seen. Creeping up to the bank of a small brook, a nice juicy night crawler was sent drifting downstream into a nice hole and from our hiding place we watched a an Eastern Brooke Trout dart out, grab the lead sinker and run with it. It was as good a strike as any except the fish had the sinker instead of the night crawler. This has happened over and over again and in our experiences we have seen it many times. Even in salt water here in Washington's Puget Sound. We tried silver colored lures but in many cases they still preferred the oxidized sinkers. There seems to be something about the color of oxidized lead that many types of fish seem to like. Could the fish be seeing the oxidized lead as a brilliant, vibrant color that we are unable to see?

If so it baits the question: are there natural baits that is mimicked by the color of lead sinkers? Here is a chance for some enterprising inventor to create a pigment that attracts fish like the oxidized lead, but hopefully not lead.

In conclusion, color does make a difference even if the fish are not fussy about the color of their food or are color-blind. Visibility is the key. Keep in mind though, that all fish are color-blind at night because the color cones retract and the rods extend for more acute black and white night vision, making a glowing bait enhancer important for increasing the strike zone.

Good luck and keep the inside of your waders dry!

[ammerman19]

that was taken from this link.

http://www.geocities.com/wwindmills/fishcolor.html

My point is that most fish do not see colors REAL well. Some basice colors can be distinguished. But IMO it is mostly shades and sparkling, shining etc..... Maybe tropical fish are different but most things I read on gamefish (Bass, Walleye, etc..) in North america lean to them not seeing color very well. But I believe these take into consideration the depths that fish are generally located.

As for Dats who knows maybe they have the eyes of an eagle the ears of a whitetail deer and the nose of a bloodhound. From the sounds of it you are making fish out to be like the Daredevil except with super vision lol. I'm not denying fish have very acute senses. I believe even their vision is great but just not a broad range of colors. For example chartruesse would be lighter than yellow because it reflects more light. If fish could see everything in color great why in the hell would they eat half of the stuff thrown at em lol. Prove that one :)

[ammerman19]

okay after doing some more research I think most fish see in color. My thinking before had to do with the depth fish are normally found at which only allows certain frequencys to penetrate a certain distance for the fish to see. So I would suppose in an aquarium most but not all fish should be to see fine in color.

[AquataHolic420]

If fish could see everything in color great why in the hell would they eat half of the stuff thrown at em lol[/B]. Prove that one :)

Hunger... do you try new foods that look different? what makes you so special and not fish? I think fish are advanced with their senses in different ways...maybe they like to try diffferent things..

[ammerman19]

gotta be honest with ya. I don't really buy that one though. I could see maybe a couple fish doing that but not a lot. And how would I catch the same fish on the same lure that was colored nothing like natural food.

[Euge]

ammerman great read. thanks for posting

[KenyanSandBoa]

not necissarily. There are MANY shades to the greyscale.

I understand that, but it would be pointless to have these extravagant lures and flies if all the fish saw was various shades of grey.

[AquataHolic420]

gotta be honest with ya. I don't really buy that one though. I could see maybe a couple fish doing that but not a lot. And how would I catch the same fish on the same lure that was colored nothing like natural food.

I think you must be talking about sunfish.. I'm Sure that fish can see colors, some fish just may be in better water conditions so they can see more... i think a catfish may be a kind of fish if any to see the "grey scale". But Sharks i know for a fact have species that see in excellent color. i Saw on Tv last night that Great white Sharks see underwater in excellent color, and also when they want a better look, they will lift their head out of water to peer at an object better.

[sandtiger]

Nearly all diurnal fish see in color. At least the majority, with over 25,000 species I'm sure there are some that don't. Studies show that some fish can detect some color variations even better then humans can. I'm pretty confident that datnoids are among these fish.

[ammerman19]

I think you must be talking about sunfish.. I'm Sure that fish can see colors, some fish just may be in better water conditions so they can see more... i think a catfish may be a kind of fish if any to see the "grey scale". But Sharks i know for a fact have species that see in excellent color. i Saw on Tv last night that Great white Sharks see underwater in excellent color, and also when they want a better look, they will lift their head out of water to peer at an object better.

I agree that Datnoids probably see in color. And you kinda proved my point with the sharks going out of the water to see better. Light penetration into water does not allow all frequencies of light to penetrate past certain depths. I believe that even fish that can see color great at a 2 foot depth can also see very well in shades of grey at say 25 feet deep or 50........basically the deeper they go the less color they will see. The dirtier the water the less color they will see. In a brightly lit aquarium that is 24" I would say most fish will see color.

[h20man]

I agree that Datnoids probably see in color. And you kinda proved my point with the sharks going out of the water to see better. Light penetration into water does not allow all frequencies of light to penetrate past certain depths. I believe that even fish that can see color great at a 2 foot depth can also see very well in shades of grey at say 25 feet deep or 50........basically the deeper they go the less color they will see. The dirtier the water the less color they will see. In a brightly lit aquarium that is 24" I would say most fish will see color.
I do a lot of free-diving and I do know that the color spectrum at about 30 feet underwater changes in the ocean. For example, the Priacanthus Meeki (Hawaiian Big-eye) and Myripristis Kumtee (soldierfish), are found at about this depth and their primary body coloration is a bright deep red with silver. At the depth of 30 feet the fish looks grey in color, but when brought to the surface they are a deep red.

I think that they are red for a reason. Because the red fades at about 30 feet and deeper it is to their advantage through natural selection to have this color so that they appear invisible and blend in to the environment. I know that larger predator fish enjoy eating the Priacanthus Meeki (Hawaiian Bigeye) and Myripristis Kumtee (soldierfish). Heck I don't blame them they taste good and were considered as a food source only for the Hawaiian royalty in ancient Hawaii. I also know that sharks and jacks enjoy eating these fish, because when you use them as bait they are usually snatched up by these fish.

Well back to the datnoids. My datnoids are in a well lit 15-gallon tank right now (will be moved either to a 40 or 55 gallon tank when they get a little bigger [The 40 and 55 gallon tank are cycling now]) so the loss of color at depth is not a issue here. Yet, the datnoids ignore the black mollies, like mollies are invisible to to them.

[h20man]

I do a lot of free-diving and I do know that the color spectrum at about 30 feet underwater changes in the ocean. For example, the Priacanthus Meeki (Hawaiian Big-eye) and Myripristis Kumtee (soldierfish), are found at about this depth and their primary body coloration is a bright deep red with silver. At the depth of 30 feet the fish looks grey in color, but when brought to the surface they are a deep red.

I think that they are red for a reason. Because the red fades at about 30 feet and deeper it is to their advantage through natural selection to have this color so that they appear invisible and blend in to the environment. I know that larger predator fish enjoy eating the Priacanthus Meeki (Hawaiian Bigeye) and Myripristis Kumtee (soldierfish). Heck I don't blame them they taste good and were considered as a food source only for the Hawaiian royalty in ancient Hawaii. I also know that sharks and jacks enjoy eating these fish, because when you use them as bait they are usually snatched up by these fish.

Well back to the datnoids. My datnoids are in a well lit 15-gallon tank right now (will be moved either to a 40 or 55 gallon tank when they get a little bigger [The 40 and 55 gallon tank are cycling now]) so the loss of color at depth is not a issue here. Yet, the datnoids ignore the black mollies, like mollies are invisible to to them.
I am just curious, has anyone fed their datnoids black mollies and have they eaten them? Or, did you experience a similar thing as I did (the black mollies were ignored)?