S.O.S.!!!

[spryandspringy]

I very, very worried about my brand new Harlequin Tusk!!!! She's lying around on the bottom of the tank most of the time, keeping herself propped up against her live rock or the wall of the tank, and intermittently swimming around, followed by more lying around. It is a new tank, but cycled (not compeltely, and believe me, I'm kicking myself) with shrimp. My ammonia-meter shown nothing, nitrites are 0 and nitrates are 10ppm. pH is 8.4 and alakalinity/buffering capacity is 300. She seems to have a sort of layer of scum on some parts of her; not like ich, just a blurry cloudiness to her coloring!

HELP!

I'm on MSN Messenger for immediate reponses!

[spryandspringy]

Oh, crap! I was also so worried about her that I didn't even notice how hot it is in here! The A/C went out, and the tank is 82 degrees!!!

[Gr8KarmaSF]

To lower the temp, try putting some ziplocked bags of ice in the tank. For long term use bottles of frozen water.

Dont know to much about your fish but pics would help.

[spryandspringy]

I put some ice into the filter and added some stresscoat along with it. I'm really worried. She also seems to be breathing heavily. Ugh.

[bluedempsey]

try putting some hydrogen peroxide in the tank
how big is it?

[spryandspringy]

I just sent a reply to your PM, bluedempsey. Are you serious? Hydrogen peroxide? Does it matter that it's a saltwater tank?

[spryandspringy]

I just sent my husband to the drug store. I hope this works!

[bluedempsey]

all it does is super saturate the water with air
help slow the breathing, i do it all the time
won't hurt them a bit :headbang2

[spryandspringy]

I called the LFS and they said that she "wasn't acclimated well enough" and that her chances were "50/50." They also said I should add more Stress Coat to the water. Agree? Disagree? (I'm panicking!!!)

[spryandspringy]

Will it help her get off the bottom of the tank and quit leaning on things? Will she cheer up and start swimming? WILL SHE LIVE?????

[bluedempsey]

I called the LFS and they said that she "wasn't acclimated well enough" and that her chances were "50/50." They also said I should add more Stress Coat to the water. Agree? Disagree? (I'm panicking!!!)
never liked stresscoat
try novaqua much better stuff
do you have protein skimmer?
if yes.. don't use stress coat
it will lead to a big mess!

[spryandspringy]

I do have a protein skimmer, but haven't notced any big messes as yet. What's the difference between the two products?

Still awaiting arrival of the hydrogen peroxide....

[bluedempsey]

Will it help her get off the bottom of the tank and quit leaning on things? Will she cheer up and start swimming? WILL SHE LIVE?????
this is going to take alil stress off her!
turn out the lights, and cover it if you can!
the less stress the better

[spryandspringy]

So, do you think it's the heat (probably not from what you said in PM), the acclimation, or something else entirely?

[spryandspringy]

Light are already off. I can cover up the tank for more seclusion, but that would mean taking my eyes off of her. Poor fishie!!! :(

[bluedempsey]

So, do you think it's the heat (probably not from what you said in PM), the acclimation, or something else entirely?
like i told you earlier they are hard to keep
sometimes it's getting them to eat... sometimes they just fade away for no reason!
i don't know if it's the way they are caught or what?
i say out of the last 10,
7 just die for no reason!
:screwy:

[spryandspringy]

ACK!

I don't like those odds.

[bluedempsey]

seriously! it's a beautiful fish
but it's a role of the dice :(

[bluedempsey]

and besides the fact that their so dam expensive!

[spryandspringy]

And "day one" went so welll... :cry:

[bluedempsey]

it's alway like that
or when the guarantee expires

[bluedempsey]

if i may ask how much did you pay?

[spryandspringy]

O.K. Hydrogen Peroxide is in the tank. No immediate, appreciable reaction. Lights are still off and the tank is covered up to further reduce stress. Now what? Is there a special Rosary one can say for fish?

[spryandspringy]

if i may ask how much did you pay?

$57.99 and she's about 5 - 5.5" long and the Australian variety. (Preferred employee discount at the LFS; usually $107.99.)

[bluedempsey]

O.K. Hydrogen Peroxide is in the tank. No immediate, appreciable reaction. Lights are still off and the tank is covered up to further reduce stress. Now what? Is there a special Rosary one can say for fish?
no special rosary general
just wait it out

[bluedempsey]

$57.99 and she's about 5 - 5.5" long and the Australian variety. (Preferred employee discount at the LFS; usually $107.99.)
pretty good deal!!
almost at cost!

[bluedempsey]

When shopping for a Harlequin Tuskfish, make sure it has clear clean fins and is actively moving about the aquarium in search of food. Be sure to see it eat! A Harlequin Tusk always has room for one more bite of food! Specimens between three and five inches are the ideal size. Tusks less than two-inches in length are fragile. They have a high metabolism and insufficient reserves of fat to withstand a period of prolonged starvation. Tusks larger than five inches don’t ship as well and often have a harder time acclimating to captivity. I also recommend spending the extra money and purchasing Harlequin Tuskfish that originate from Australia. It may have something to do with the way they're captured, shipped or handled, but Australian Tuskfish have exhibited better survivability than specimens originating from Indonesia and the Philippines, especially the smaller tusks!

As with any new fish, it’s best to quarantine them become introducing them into a display aquarium. This give the fish a chance to acclimate to captivity, become used to your food and feeding regimen, build up reserves, and be treated for disease if necessary.
:thumbsup:

[DeLgAdO]

after shes better add some of this to her food, soak it first of coarse.

[bluedempsey]

yes thats a natural immune system booster!

[bluedempsey]

keep us posted on the tusk!
good luck!

[spryandspringy]

$57.99 and she's about 5 - 5.5" long and the Australian variety. (Preferred employee discount at the LFS; usually $107.99.)


Ooops... I didn't mean "employee" discount. It must be the stress talking. I meant customer.

[bluedempsey]

still dang good deal!

[spryandspringy]

No change. She's still lying around next to her rock, panting.

[bluedempsey]

give it till morning
hope for the best

[bluedempsey]

i think you may have rushed the cycle
i tell most people to wait aleast 2 to 3 weeks
while there is a raw shrimp in the tank

[spryandspringy]

I think you're right. The cycle didn't really seem to happen at all, and still isn't. Weird, weird, weird.

[bluedempsey]

i think thats what is going on right now :(

[bluedempsey]

if that is the case it is only going to get worse! :(

[spryandspringy]

Well, I can always look to the future. If my dear, dear Tusk goes to that big tank in the sky I'll get a cheap ol' damsel to cycle the tank while I'm in mourning, and then start plotting my next addition(s).

I will not go quietly into that good night!

[spryandspringy]

No improvement. :cry:

[spryandspringy]

She moved to the other side of her rock, but no improvement. :swear:

[Vince]

Can you ask the LFS to keep it till the tank is fully cycled? That might be your best bet, and assure them that if the fish decides to go for the worse, you did your best to keep it alive. I did this along time ago. Bought a tusk on two week old tank. Poor fish did not have a chance. I would ask the fish store to keep it a few days till it gets stronger again...if they let you. Keep us posted.

[Vince]

Oh by the way, try to keep your new tank away from any chemicals. That is the last thing you need while cycling a salt tank. You want it nice and green, not get brown algae.

[spryandspringy]

Still no change this morning. At least she's still alive. It seems like acclimation is the issue, so wouldn't returning her to the LFS for recovery actually make things worse?

[blacktip]

Still no change this morning. At least she's still alive. It seems like acclimation is the issue, so wouldn't returning her to the LFS for recovery actually make things worse?

If the problem is due to the tank not having cycled properly, taking her back to the LFS, where the water conditions are hopefully more stable, might give her a better chance of springing back to life. On the other hand, the added stress of being caught and moved again under her already stressed conditions may make things worse.

Have you tested the water again for ammonia or nitrites? How about ph?

[spryandspringy]

Have you tested the water again for ammonia or nitrites? How about ph?

No change in water conditions as of this morning. They are exactly the same as they were last night. I'd be more suspicious of the cycle if I saw something change in the water quality, but it just hasn't budged.

[blacktip]

The only parameter I don't recall seeing was the water temperature. Curious what it is. Also, have you taken your water to have it tested somewhere else, just to verify the test results that you are getting?

Unfortunately, at this point it looks like it is just a matter of wait and see. I hope she pulls through for you.

[spryandspringy]

The temperature was a little high last evening (82 degrees) but is now at a steady 76 degrees. I'm at work now, and really hoping I don't come home to a dead fish. I left the lights off and the tank is covered for minimum stress.

[mbhw]

Assuming your tank is cycled:

If there are no other fish in the tank, it might feel stressed and that's why it's hiding behind the rock. I suggest some dither fish, like green chromis or some wimpier damsels, like the blue with yellow tails. When they are feeling comfy, other fish feel as though there are no predators around.

How is the tank decorated? If there is only one big rock, it might be gravitating towards it because it's the only structure available.

good luck, but I never trusted fishless cycles and I feel that if your tank is around 55-75 gallons, you will need around 10 damsels to cycle properly

[spryandspringy]

Thanks mbhw, but I think that's exactly the problem. The cycle doesn't seem to have ever begun. I'll test again tonight when I get home from work. Hopefully that testing won't be in conjunction with scooping out a dead fish. :eek:

[repair]

good luck, but I never trusted fishless cycles and I feel that if your tank is around 55-75 gallons, you will need around 10 damsels to cycle properly

I only use fishless cycle and it works great..... no need to buy fish I don't really want and I don't like to feed live. Thats my 2cents

[spryandspringy]

I cycled with shrimp, but the cycle never really seemed to happen. Even so, this one fish shouldn't have created an overwhelming bio-load, especially in one day.

Given all of the feedback here and elsewhere, I think it's a bad acclimation that's to blame.

[spryandspringy]

I just got home from work, and there no change. She's still lying against the side of the tank. Now she's not eating either. Her breathing seems to have calmed a bit, but still doesn't seem completely normal. Ammonia seems to be creeping up now, but Nitrates and Nitrites as well as pH and alkalinity remain unchanged. Things are not looking good. :(

[bluedempsey]

I just got home from work, and there no change. She's still lying against the side of the tank. Now she's not eating either. Her breathing seems to have calmed a bit, but still doesn't seem completely normal. Ammonia seems to be creeping up now, but Nitrates and Nitrites as well as pH and alkalinity remain unchanged. Things are not looking good. :(
wait till you get to nitrite
:cry:
it's the worst
ask if you can take it back before it's to late

[blacktip]

I'm still pulling for you. The fact that she won't eat and that the ammonia is starting to creep up is not a good omen. What were the ammonia levels? The addition of the harlequin would increase the bioload drastically and one would expect to see a brief bump in ammonia and nitrites as the bacterial colonies may take a couple of days to adjust to the new levels.

Keep us informed and once again I hope she turns out okay.

[spryandspringy]

You're right. I'm going to call them right now.

[bluedempsey]

You're right. I'm going to call them right now.
did you call?
what did they say?

[spryandspringy]

I called... and went there. They took her back and are going to try to rehab her. It doesn't look good. I'm going to go back and check on her every day. I got two tough little damsels to continue the cycle that FINALLY started.

I will not surrender!!!

[bluedempsey]

I called... and went there. They took her back and are going to try to rehab her. It doesn't look good. I'm going to go back and check on her every day. I got two tough little damsels to continue the cycle that FINALLY started.

I will not surrender!!!
:thumbsup:

[blacktip]

Let's hope she makes it so you can bring her home again in a few weeks...

[spryandspringy]

I've got my fingers crossed.

[spryandspringy]

The cannon-fodder (read: damsels) just got released into the tank after dripping tank water into their bag to get them acclimated. No one's dead yet. Second time's the charm?

[bluedempsey]

The cannon-fodder (read: damsels) just got released into the tank after dripping tank water into their bag to get them acclimated. No one's dead yet. Second time's the charm?
i always thought it was lucky number 7
:screwy:

[spryandspringy]

Good gravy! I hope not!!!!! :WHOA:

[bluedempsey]

Good gravy! I hope not!!!!! :WHOA:
i'm sure it won't be!

[spryandspringy]

This morning finds two very healthy and active damsels in my tank. Ammonia is slowly rising, and nitrites have just barely begun to make an appearance.

THE CYCLE BEGINS! :naughty:

Now, here's a question for y'all: If the Tusk doesn't survive and return to me in a few weeks, I'm thinking of doing the whole coral/anemone/creepy-crawlies thing in this tank. It sits near a very large window and gets indirect sunlight throughout the daylight hours. Would that be a benefit to those creatures that need bright, broad-spectrum lighting? Might this be a good location for such a setup?

Just trying to make lemonade out of my lemons here, folks!

[blacktip]

I am pretty sure that the indirect sunlight would not be sufficient for any inverts that need high intensity, broad spectrum lighting and would more likely cause algae problems than anything else.

[Miles]

I am pretty sure that the indirect sunlight would not be sufficient for any inverts that need high intensity, broad spectrum lighting and would more likely cause algae problems than anything else.

Yep, lots of algae!

If you want to get into 'reef' keeping, get out your chemistry books! ;) Hopefully you have a good 'sensai' for reefkeeping in your town..

I keep a live rock and fish only tank, but I have some good inverts as well. A big brittle star that acts like an octopous, and a giant spiny sea-urchin as an algae eater.

I need to get some vids of my brittle star eating! Hes AWESOME!

[spryandspringy]

Oddly when I had this tank set up for freshwater this tank had very little algae compared to some others. I am starting to think that the laws of biology and chemistry are suspended in that area of my home. ;)

In any event, my idea was not to skip the special lighting for coral and inverts, but just that the location of the tank might make it a good candidate; a little extra sun would be that much better for them. Not so, huh? Also, what reef-safe fish (in case I do go that direction) are good for controlling the algae that I can anticipate?

As for a "sensai" in the local area, no such luck, so I'll have to rely on you good people. "I've always relied on the kindness of strangers." :naughty:

[bluedempsey]

sooooooooo.........
is the tusk still alive at your lfs? :(

[spryandspringy]

Ummm... I don't think so. I stopped by this evening, and I didn't see her. No one seemed to know what had happened, though they all knew about her. :(

[bluedempsey]

Ummm... I don't think so. I stopped by this evening, and I didn't see her. No one seemed to know what had happened, though they all knew about her. :(
it's a conspiracy!

[spryandspringy]

it's a conspiracy!

I'll call tomorrow and get the skinny when the manager is there. Alas, I'm afraid that she's probably gone to that big tank in the sky. :(

[bluedempsey]

I'll call tomorrow and get the skinny when the manager is there. Alas, I'm afraid that she's probably gone to that big tank in the sky. :(
or they got a fish that was not in the inventory...
and kept it for them selves

[spryandspringy]

Nah... that's the LFS where I got her in the first place.

[blacktip]

Do they have a quarantine section in the back? If they do, it's possible they moved her somewhere where she wouldn't be seen.

Hoping for the best here.

[bluedempsey]

any updates?

[spryandspringy]

Went by this evening... no sign, no word.... :( The manager wasn't in at all today, so no call from her either.

My tank continues to cycle -- more predictably now. Ammonia is at the "Alert" level on my sensor (right after "Safe" and before "Alarm" and "Toxic".) Nitrites are at 0.4 ppm and Nitrates are at 15 ppm. The damsels seem quite content and active.

On a happier note, I also went by the little "Mom and Pop" LFS and they have a cute tomato clown and a host anemone (Already paired) that they're holding for me. They're special ordering me some lighting for this setup and once that's in I'll pick up all three. Should work out well, timing-wise.

bluedemsey, you were right about the Stress Coat; my protein skimmer has overflowed a couple of times. I did find that NovAqua+ you mentioned to me. Seems like pretty efficient stuff! 4 fl. oz. treats 240g??? WOW! I'll use that on my saltwater tank from here on out. Speaking of which, should I do a partial water change this weekend to even out the cycle, or let it continue to take its course? What's the recommendation with saltwater? I'm thinking I won't touch it unless my Nitrites creep over 0.5 ppm...?

[spryandspringy]

Ammonia is still around the "Alert" level (closer to "Safe" than to "Alarm".) Nitrites and Nitrates are creeping up: Nitrites are 1.0ppm and Nitrates are 20ppm. I don't want to panic and so a partial water change or add anything to remove them if it's only going to make this start all over again. Thoughts?

[Fish Finder]

Ammonia is still around the "Alert" level (closer to "Safe" than to "Alarm".) Nitrites and Nitrates are creeping up: Nitrites are 1.0ppm and Nitrates are 20ppm. I don't want to panic and so a partial water change or add anything to remove them if it's only going to make this start all over again. Thoughts?

I tell my coustimers that when there seting up a new tank to do like what the rotisery guy say's "set it and froget it". Anything you do to the tank will be interfearing with the cycle. Water changes, runing the proteen skimmer, puting stuf in the water during the cycle, basicaly anything that wasn't in it when you started it should be left out. Like i have said before it take's about 14 day's to cycle a tank if you have the right minn amount of LR and LS. But that's only if you set it and froget it.

[spryandspringy]

But, I'll go insane if I can fuss with it! (J/K) I'll watch and wait. Oh, and protein skimmer is off now. :D I added another 5 lb. piece of live rock yesterday from an established tank (i.e. no "die off"). This brings the total to about 25 - 30 lb. live rock and 25 lb. live sand, and the tank is a 40g breeder. More sand? (I mean later... after I "set it and forget it"... ;)

[Fish Finder]

But, I'll go insane if I can fuss with it! (J/K) I'll watch and wait. Oh, and protein skimmer is off now. :D I added another 5 lb. piece of live rock yesterday from an established tank (i.e. no "die off"). This brings the total to about 25 - 30 lb. live rock and 25 lb. live sand, and the tank is a 40g breeder. More sand? (I mean later... after I "set it and forget it"... ;)

since you dont have the min live rock and sand it would take more then 14 day's to cycle so you know. The min would be 40ls - 40lr. when your cycle compleats add cured live rock so there will be no spike. Also indted of adding more live sand you can just make up for it in live rock.

[spryandspringy]

Update: Ammonia is 0, zip, zilch, nada, niente!!! Nitrite is 0.6ppm and Nitrate is 30ppm. Both damsels expired a couple of days ago. I was going to continue the fishless cycle, but my husband surprised me with another damsel today so now there's one little cycling soldier in there.

At what point do I turn the protein skimmer on? Can I keep adding more live rock and live sand? Also, I got a small refugium on eBay. Any advice on setup for that? (I'm going to post that as a separate topic as well.)

Thanks in advance for all of your advice my fishy friends! :D

[bluedempsey]

Update: Ammonia is 0, zip, zilch, nada, niente!!! Nitrite is 0.6ppm and Nitrate is 30ppm. Both damsels expired a couple of days ago. I was going to continue the fishless cycle, but my husband surprised me with another damsel today so now there's one little cycling soldier in there.

At what point do I turn the protein skimmer on? Can I keep adding more live rock and live sand? Also, I got a small refugium on eBay. Any advice on setup for that? (I'm going to post that as a separate topic as well.)

Thanks in advance for all of your advice my fishy friends! :D
if your tank... is in the nitrite phase and there is a fish in there,
look to see if it is breathing heavily.... if it is i'd turn it on *skimmer*
just because all it is going to do is provide more oxygen.
nitrite affects the blood of the fish depriving it of oxygen :thumbsup:

[spryandspringy]

O.K. Breathing heavy = skimmer, not breathing heavy = no skimmer. CHECK!

The poor little thing just finished acclimation and got released into the tank about ten minutes ago, so no signs of labored breathing yet.

[DeLgAdO]

is your tank well or heavily aerated?

[spryandspringy]

is your tank well or heavily aerated?

The surface is well churned by the directional outputs of the power filter. There's also a powerhead in there.

[bluedempsey]

so how is it doing now?

[DeLgAdO]

The surface is well churned by the directional outputs of the power filter. There's also a powerhead in there.


get an air pump going as well

[bluedempsey]

get an air pump going as well
or open the valve on the powerhead

[DeLgAdO]

is that when you have an airline in the return of the powerhead?

[bluedempsey]

is that when you have an airline in the return of the powerhead?
it is usually right before the output.
it's like an air hose with a valve on top of it

[spryandspringy]

Check! I attached the aeration tube to the powerhead and it's spitting out micro-bubbles. Oh, and the damsel is looking fine... swimming around, no heavy breathing.

[bluedempsey]

so how's the victim :naughty:

[spryandspringy]

The damsel is still alive and kicki... uh... swimming. This is surprising with the addition of a lionfish today! WOOT! Luckily, my daughter named the damsel "Snack" so no biggie when he gets inhaled.

Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = 0ppm

YAHOO!!!!

Oh, and I also added some more live sand today, which brings the total to 40 lbs. live sand and about 22 lbs. live rock. 10 more lbs. live rock is coming next week. Don't worry - I'm not going to blow it by plopping the live rock into the tank right after shipping. I've got a big plastic tub, an air pump and stone, a heater, and some more salt mix ready to go to cure that when it arrives. It's not going in there until the water in the tub shows zero of everything, too. :thumbsup:

bluedempsey, you are Professor Higgins to my Eliza Doolittle in the realm of saltwater. :D

[DeLgAdO]

sooooooooooooooo

whatever happen to the tusk?

[spryandspringy]

sooooooooooooooo

whatever happen to the tusk?

May she rest in peace... :(

[bluedempsey]

bluedempsey, you are Professor Higgins to my Eliza Doolittle in the realm of saltwater. :D

:headbang2