want to start a...

[adalas226]

is it possible to have an enclosure in my basement with a variety of reptiles, and or exotics.. any ideas? like i was thinking having trees with snakes, lizards a small pond of fish.... turtles..frogs? i dono... i drank to much coffee and the caffiene is making me think... would that turn into a disaster? or would it work with some animals??

[Ophiuchus]

Lay off the caffeine.

[---XR---]

anything can be done with the right amount of money.

[dougefresh]

:screwy: why not just fill it with water and swim in it with your fish??:nilly:

[Kobi9019]

You could create a mini ecosystem if you wanted. What I personally was looking at doing was getting a good sized tank. Getting a bunch of compatible Dart Frogs, a GTP or Emerald Tree Boa, some hatchetfish and tetras, and maybe some anoles or a Day Gecko. Just make sure that you don't mix species of snake that will eat the other inhabitants and vice versa with lizards, etc. Alot of people will say that it wont work, but if you choose the inhabitants carefully, plan it to give everyone enough hiding places, and add the biggest species last you should be fine, and make sure you keep an eye on it to make sure that everyone behaves:) . You wont know until you try it right? GL

[Ophiuchus]

anything can be done with the right amount of money.

True. He could definitely create the environment, but as far as mixing a bunch of different herps together, that's a bad idea. If he has the money, something like this would be fantastic for a green iguana, or a pair of large monitors. And he could still have a pond with fish in it.

[dovii88]

i would do it with inexpensive reptiles and amphibians but it can be done

[Jessica Dring]

Lol Kobi.. most snakes and anphibians wont go well.
want to start a...
is it possible to have an enclosure in my basement with a variety of reptiles, and or exotics.. any ideas? like i was thinking having trees with snakes, lizards a small pond of fish.... turtles..frogs? i dono... i drank to much coffee and the caffiene is making me think... would that turn into a disaster? or would it work with some animals??

Ok, In short No. But if you are willing to spend a great deal of time and money (every day even once its built..) than yes, of course you can. Green Iguanas are fabulous for this, as Ophiuchus said, however you would need to read up about iguanas as they will not be the tamest of animals and will charge you in their terrotory. Small fish in a pond? What are you thinking Kobi lol.. if you want a good rainforest theme, why not go the whole way? If you have the money (and of course.. space) you could have clownknife fish, arrows, maybe a couple of pacu in an extremely large pond. No rays though.. because green iguanas can AND will swim. The good thing about this is that green iguanas are vegatarian. You could also have large tropical tortoises (I have kept iguanas with tortoises before with no ill effects) though you will of course have to make sure they cannot get into the pond and drown. You could also have turtles though I know these can be aggressive and am not sure whether they will take a bite at anything in the water. Green tree frogs would probably be your best option, I wouldnt suggest any poison dart/arrow frogs until a later date, and you know how all these animals react together, because I know the odd tortoise will pick at a frog (strange but true) and there they are, poisoned. To be honest, your better off at suggesting what you absolutely must have in this kind of setup first hand, then I can give you more advice about what could be done, requirements, and campanions. If you want, pm me or email me :)

[Kobi9019]

Lol Kobi.. most snakes and anphibians wont go well.
want to start a...
is it possible to have an enclosure in my basement with a variety of reptiles, and or exotics.. any ideas? like i was thinking having trees with snakes, lizards a small pond of fish.... turtles..frogs? i dono... i drank to much coffee and the caffiene is making me think... would that turn into a disaster? or would it work with some animals??

Ok, In short No. But if you are willing to spend a great deal of time and money (every day even once its built..) than yes, of course you can. Green Iguanas are fabulous for this, as Ophiuchus said, however you would need to read up about iguanas as they will not be the tamest of animals and will charge you in their terrotory. Small fish in a pond? What are you thinking Kobi lol.. if you want a good rainforest theme, why not go the whole way? If you have the money (and of course.. space) you could have clownknife fish, arrows, maybe a couple of pacu in an extremely large pond. No rays though.. because green iguanas can AND will swim. The good thing about this is that green iguanas are vegatarian. You could also have large tropical tortoises (I have kept iguanas with tortoises before with no ill effects) though you will of course have to make sure they cannot get into the pond and drown. You could also have turtles though I know these can be aggressive and am not sure whether they will take a bite at anything in the water. Green tree frogs would probably be your best option, I wouldnt suggest any poison dart/arrow frogs until a later date, and you know how all these animals react together, because I know the odd tortoise will pick at a frog (strange but true) and there they are, poisoned. To be honest, your better off at suggesting what you absolutely must have in this kind of setup first hand, then I can give you more advice about what could be done, requirements, and campanions. If you want, pm me or email me :)

IMO a Green Tree Python would be perfectly fine with dart frogs because a 6 foot snake wouldn't eat a 2 inch frog unless it was starving and second Green Tree Pythons spend almost all of their time in the trees and when they strike they strike with 2/3 of their body and the other 1/3 holds them to their branch, so as long as the cage is tall enough the GTP wont get any of the frogs. Not to mention the fact that GTPs' are nocturnal. No poison Dart Frogs are not poisonous in captivity because they get their toxin from a plant that they feed on in the wild, and if you get a CB Dart Frog you will not have to worry about this at all. I do agree with you on the larger fish w/ the iguana that's a great Idea, but he would need a Very large cage if he wanted to keep aros, Knifefish, and especially the iguana. He has the smaller cage ecosystem with my idea and the large ecosystem w/ you and Ophiuchus's idea.

[Jessica Dring]

I didnt pecifically mean gtp but the thing you have to remember here is all these animals are unpredictable.. you just never no.. so what is the point risking an animal thats expensive.. well two! What plant is it that they get their poison from Kobi ?
And I thought he was planning the large type, as he was on about his whole basment. We have already said he would need a large pond for those fish. Poison dart forgs are really not diurnal or nocturnal so that comment about gtps being nocturanl is invalid sorry to say lol
Tbh your comment about a 6 foot tree python eating a frog.. well its awfully unusual to start off with a 6 foot snake now isnt it? Lol
Im not sure about this theory you use about frogs getting their poison from plants.. tribes use these frogs to poison the tips of their arrows.. wouldnt they simply use the plants.. a lot less risky for the tribes.

[Jessica Dring]

* 6 foot gtp sorry lol

[Kobi9019]

I didnt pecifically mean gtp but the thing you have to remember here is all these animals are unpredictable.. you just never no.. so what is the point risking an animal thats expensive.. well two! What plant is it that they get their poison from Kobi ?
And I thought he was planning the large type, as he was on about his whole basment. We have already said he would need a large pond for those fish. Poison dart forgs are really not diurnal or nocturnal so that comment about gtps being nocturanl is invalid sorry to say lol
Tbh your comment about a 6 foot tree python eating a frog.. well its awfully unusual to start off with a 6 foot snake now isnt it? Lol
Im not sure about this theory you use about frogs getting their poison from plants.. tribes use these frogs to poison the tips of their arrows.. wouldnt they simply use the plants.. a lot less risky for the tribes.

Well for the 6ft snake part I meant to list that as their potential size. I know for a fact that they do get their poison from a plant because I have talked to breeders, and read plenty of caresheets, and asked on many forums just to be safe http://saurian.net/htm05/froginfo_dartfrog_faqs.html I guess I may be wrong about the plants as it's still unknown where they get the toxins from:irked: . I wasn't sure if he wanted to use the entire basement or not so... What type of ecosystem(can't think of a better word to use) would you like to replicate? Temperate, Deciduous, Tropical, Arid...

[Jessica Dring]

I know for a fact that they do get their poison from a plant because I have talked to breeders, and read plenty of caresheets, and asked on many forums just to be safe http://saurian.net/htm05/froginfo_dartfrog_faqs.html I guess I may be wrong about the plants as it's still unknown where they get the toxins from:irked: .

LMao you know for a fact but iots still unknown where they get their toxins from? Tbh I think it self made/produced, mybe with the HELP from a plant but i dont think they are not able to produce it in captiviity.. thats why since you dont know for sure.. not to house them with anything, let alone that may/may be able to predate on them :)

[Snakemanstu]

Dartfrogs get their poison from what they eat I.E ants in the wild..

[Jessica Dring]

so not plants then. Still... its unknown

[Kobi9019]

I know for a fact that they do get their poison from a plant because I have talked to breeders, and read plenty of caresheets, and asked on many forums just to be safe http://saurian.net/htm05/froginfo_dartfrog_faqs.html I guess I may be wrong about the plants as it's still unknown where they get the toxins from:irked: .

LMao you know for a fact but iots still unknown where they get their toxins from? Tbh I think it self made/produced, mybe with the HELP from a plant but i dont think they are not able to produce it in captiviity.. thats why since you dont know for sure.. not to house them with anything, let alone that may/may be able to predate on them :)

Lol I knew that was going to happen after I posted the right info. Sry I hadn't looked at or read up on Dart Frogs for several months now but I'm pretty sure it has to be something they eat like snakemanstu said.

[Jessica Dring]

Lol its ok, always the way isnt it lol

[Kobi9019]

of course it is

[stonecat]

If you dont mind replaceing stuff all the time go ahead. Zoo's dont do this for that same reason. Its hard to find compatible species to have in the same environment. Turtles are about the only thing that will live together without problems, but thats not always the case.

[Jessica Dring]

Replacing stuff like what?

[Ophiuchus]

Replacing stuff like what?

Replacing all the animals that keep getting eaten by cagemates. Not saying that GTPs will eat dart frogs, but for other reasons, I don't think this is a good idea. I recommend looking the recent thread about mixing species:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64392

GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...

...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference!:screwy:

[davo]

Replacing all the animals that keep getting eaten by cagemates. Not saying that GTPs will eat dart frogs, but for other reasons, I don't think this is a good idea. I recommend looking the recent thread about mixing species:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64392

GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...

...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference!:screwy:

they look nice seperately in two different vivs aswell :)
and i was always under the impressions that darts got their toxins from foods in particular ants.

[Jessica Dring]

The animals will NOT get eaten if you choose cage mates carefully. Like I said.. snakes are not really good cage mates for anything. They are too unpredictable and will occassionally have a snap at anything. Its just instinct like a dog chases a rabbit..
'...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference'
Davo who the hell said its because they look nice together?!? Thats right NO ONE! So stop making useless comments for the sake of it. I myself recomended not to keep these with snakes, and no one has been saying... 'Oh they look nice together' so stop making silly and worthless assumptions and putting words in our mouth. He asked a question and we are answering it. I did say for him to PM me as to what he really wants in this set up so that I can reccomend species (from the same setup AND area (So your again, usless comment of 'GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...' is worthless!). You are defeating the object here, and having a rant simply because you need one. Go and find another thread to do it because we dont have time for people who put words in our mouths!

[Jessica Dring]

May I also remind you, if captive bred, these animals are NOT in the wild anymore, and have never known any different. These animals dont come across handling and being kept in tiny vivs in the wild, so again, another worthless comment you made there. Thats the point, these animals are no longer in the wild so you cannot go around saying what they are used to in there!

[Ophiuchus]

The animals will NOT get eaten if you choose cage mates carefully. Like I said.. snakes are not really good cage mates for anything. They are too unpredictable and will occassionally have a snap at anything. Its just instinct like a dog chases a rabbit..
'...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference'
Davo who the hell said its because they look nice together?!? Thats right NO ONE! So stop making useless comments for the sake of it. I myself recomended not to keep these with snakes, and no one has been saying... 'Oh they look nice together' so stop making silly and worthless assumptions and putting words in our mouth. He asked a question and we are answering it. I did say for him to PM me as to what he really wants in this set up so that I can reccomend species (from the same setup AND area (So your again, usless comment of 'GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...' is worthless!). You are defeating the object here, and having a rant simply because you need one. Go and find another thread to do it because we dont have time for people who put words in our mouths!

Umm...I actually said those things in the post directly before Davo's...he was quoting me. That last comment about "they look nice together" was sarcasm, if you weren't able to catch it. I was poking fun at the idea that the keeper's aesthetic tastes were more important than the well-being of his animals, which is pure hogwash.

I'm not arguing for argument's sake, either. I would implore you to read all the points made in the thread I linked to, before you come up with such rash notions about mixing species.

May I also remind you, if captive bred, these animals are NOT in the wild anymore, and have never known any different. These animals dont come across handling and being kept in tiny vivs in the wild, so again, another worthless comment you made there. Thats the point, these animals are no longer in the wild so you cannot go around saying what they are used to in there!

Yes, they may have never experienced the wild firsthand, but reptiles (among other exotic pets) are not even remotely domesticated to the same level as dogs, cats, and livestock. Those animals have been kept by man for thousands of years, but we've only been keeping reptiles for a few hundred at most. A domesticated dog is going to react differently to things than a fox or a wolf. However, a CB python or frog or lizard is still going to behave as a wild one would behave, and it will still react to certain situations in the same way its wild counterpart would react. It will be many hundreds of years before we can think about having a clear separation of "domesticated" snakes and wild ones. There's simply too much instinctual programming to affect.

"You can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger!"

[Jessica Dring]

Ok, firstly whats the point using past threads quotes on here? Not all of us have been on that long..
It wasnt easy to read sarcasm mate so yano dont see the point in using it meself.

Yes, they may have never experienced the wild firsthand, but reptiles (among other exotic pets) are not even remotely domesticated to the same level as dogs, cats, and livestock. Those animals have been kept by man for thousands of years, but we've only been keeping reptiles for a few hundred at most. A domesticated dog is going to react differently to things than a fox or a wolf. However, a CB python or frog or lizard is still going to behave as a wild one would behave, and it will still react to certain situations in the same way its wild counterpart would react. It will be many hundreds of years before we can think about having a clear separation of "domesticated" snakes and wild ones. There's simply too much instinctual programming to affect.

"You can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger!"

No one is saying they are domesticated like dogs or cats are they!?! Haha there we go again with those silly accusations. No of course they arent domesticated like that of dogs and cats. But just try picking up a wild boa or python, and try picking one up in captivity, they will not be as defensive. This shows they are domesticated.. to the standard of being sold in the pet trade. In reply to your dogs and wolves/foxes example. Lol, What does a dog do if it cannot escape/hide and is in fear? Bite. So these animals do react much the same in reality. If you mean how they react to people or people situations well, haha, sorry to say mate but wolves arent born in humans homes! Though it has been done (and proved) that when they are, the pups grow to react much the same as dogs do! Im not going to get into a big argument about this because i simply cba, though I know I will make my point made. You are really defeating the object of the topic discussed and are swaying further and further from it. We were not talking about domestication were we? Now look where we are.. a ruined thread! All I said is, despite you 'thoughts' on what they would come across in the wild, it wouldnt actually matter because they never known different and are no longer 'wild' as you mean it. And confirming this is the fact they live 'healthily' to a degree, in vivariums and to be handled and fed foods that are only subtantial to that of what they would eat in the 'wild'
Get my drift of what I'm trying to say ;)
No use comparing them to their wild counterparts, is what I'm saying. Of course they stil have instinct etc but this does not make them 'wild'

[Jessica Dring]

sorry Davo I meant Ophiuchus

[TheBloodyIrish]

Reptiles will always be wild. They can't be domesticated -- only sociable animals can be domesticated.

Now that being said -- it is not a good idea to mix snakes with other reptiles UNLESS it is an insectivorous like the Smooth or Rough Green Snakes or simply too small to attack a bigger reptile.

Even then, it is still not a good idea to mix any reptile at all -- unless you're one of those ones that are obsessed with display tanks like some of the European dart frog keepers who keep them with tree pythons and geckos.

Now, I had one professor talk about PDF in class -- if I remember correctly.. they traced it back to the insects. However those insects don't naturally produce the toxins. The native tribes of the Pacific Ocean found out that you can extract the same PDF toxin from some kind of beetle. It is just a matter of finding what plant that those insects are consuming. Now... remember, those tribes have no contact with the South American tribes.

[Ophiuchus]

Ok, firstly whats the point using past threads quotes on here? Not all of us have been on that long..

I didn't quote directly from another thread; that's why I posted a link to it. The issues discussed in that thread is very close to those in this one (before I even joined it, BTW), so I felt that people should have a educated perspective on this issue before spouting out their opinions that aren't based on anything substantial.

But just try picking up a wild boa or python, and try picking one up in captivity, they will not be as defensive. This shows they are domesticated.. to the standard of being sold in the pet trade.

What about WC specimens that "tame down" after being in captivity for a while? "Methinks" you're confusing domestication with conditioned behavior. Domestication is a near dependence on mankind by entire generations, wheras conditioning is on a individual basis; i.e. one animal simply learns that humans aren't a threat, and tolerates their presence. You plop the said animal back into its native habitat (CB or not), it will go back on its instincts and survive just as well as if it were in the wild all its life.

Lol, What does a dog do if it cannot escape/hide and is in fear? Bite. So these animals do react much the same in reality.

That's simply "flight or fight," sister, a very primeval instinct. This doesn't help your case any; it just shows that domestication can't change everything, and maybe Canis domesticus isn't as domesticated as we thought!

If you mean how they react to people or people situations well, haha, sorry to say mate but wolves arent born in humans homes! Though it has been done (and proved) that when they are, the pups grow to react much the same as dogs do!

Once again, conditioned behavior, not domestication. Example: if you were to introduce a deer to a family of golden retreivers, then depending on their personality, they would be fearful, ignorant, in the very least, probably reluctant to go near it. You put that same deer with a pack of wolves? Well, you see my point. Wolves know exactly what do with a deer. True, some dogs are trained to go after deer and other animals, but its exactly that...training, a form of conditioning.

i simply cba

"CBA?" Cannot Be Annoyed?...aggravated? Sorry, that's a new acronym for me.

You are really defeating the object of the topic discussed and are swaying further and further from it. We were not talking about domestication were we? Now look where we are.. a ruined thread!

Rubbish! We're merely looking at the broader scope of the issue, than just simply dealing with the intitial question of whether GTPs should be kept with dart frogs. In fact, it was stonecat that first brought up the issue of mixing any different species together. I understand opinions differ, but the other thread I mentioned does relate to this one, so I posted its link. Based on your reactions thus far, I gather you've yet to read it. Please do...you may learn something. But I repeat myseff anyway...

Once again, I'm not sure what would happen if a GTP and dart frogs were kept together. But as I've mentioned in other threads, mixing species do not benefit the animals in any way at all. It is only for the benefit of the keeper because:

A.) he hasn't the space/money for a second cage
B.) he's simply too lazy to upkeep a second cage...and/or...
C.) he lacks the patience to wait until he can change A or B

...and by choosing to put these animals together, he's willing to compromise their well-being simply to benefit himself. "Get my drift of what I'm trying to say ;)"

All I said is, despite you 'thoughts' on what they would come across in the wild, it wouldnt actually matter because they never known different and are no longer 'wild' as you mean it. And confirming this is the fact they live 'healthily' to a degree, in vivariums and to be handled and fed foods that are only subtantial to that of what they would eat in the 'wild'
Get my drift of what I'm trying to say ;)
No use comparing them to their wild counterparts, is what I'm saying. Of course they stil have instinct etc but this does not make them 'wild'

Once more (sigh), you're thinking in pure absolute terms; i.e. if the said animal is living a healthy life in captivity, then it must be domesticated. Not necessarily so. Read my earlier comments on conditioned behavior.

[Jessica Dring]

What the hell are you going on about south american tribes for? Who gives a **** what tribe it is that tips their darts with these frogs secretions. So I resume, right, it is NOT plants they get it from (theoretically). Like I said.. snakes arent good companion animals that has already been said TheBloodyIrish, so no point starting on that one.

'Reptiles will always be wild. They can't be domesticated -- only sociable animals can be domesticated. '
Where is your proof?
Now, soppose, In efforts to prove this theory wrong, it was said NO MORE WC'S and in the future we would benefit from reptiles the same way we do from dogs etc, so therefor we must begin domestication, I think you will find your theory wrong. Within time, huge efforts (as I am not saying this would be easy or quick) they would eventually, become even more domesticated to a degree. Reptiles (cb) are no longer 'wild'. I think you need to rethink your words. Wild, would be letting each and every 'wild' (as you so boldy describe them) reptiles go, and them surviving, on their own, without ANY human interference. This simply will not happen (even if let go in their own origin). So you are quite simply, wrong, reptiles are no longer 'wild' in the way that you mean (not the cb ones anyway). And as for sociable, lmao, it really makes no difference! Animals that are social are social with their own KIND, do you see cows being interactive and sociable with horses, goats, sheep, dogs, fish etc? Nope. Yeah, so makes no difference. Oh but for the record, reptiles are sociable, they must be to breed. And look at those that live together eg: turtles, tortoises (some) crocodiles, (you will see them come together to help bring down extremely large prey) and things of the sort.

Even then, it is still not a good idea to mix any reptile at all -- unless you're one of those ones that are obsessed with display tanks like some of the European dart frog keepers who keep them with tree pythons and geckos.

So your saying it is then a good idea to mix them if you are? lmao!

There is no problem in this, it is all part of being held captive that these animals suffer.

[TheBloodyIrish]

What the hell are you going on about south american tribes for? Who gives a **** what tribe it is that tips their darts with these frogs secretions. So I resume, right, it is NOT plants they get it from (theoretically). Like I said.. snakes arent good companion animals that has already been said TheBloodyIrish, so no point starting on that one.I am just saying they think it's from a plant due to the discovery they made with a tribe in New Guinea who used the same toxin from a beetle. How could the tribe known that? Simple, they just know from the knowledge of their local surroundings.

Because of that discovery, people are starting to theorize that is not from the ants -- but rather those beetles can be found worldwide. Some of them are going even further and theorizing that it is from the plants that are being consumed by the PDF's prey since there are PDF that are too small to eat the beetle.

You need to look up the definition of domestication. Many species of fish had been bred for centuries, and we don't consider them as domesticated except for goldfish and koi. We consider animals to be domesticated when they are tame from birth. There is not a single reptile species that is tame from the very first second they are hatched or born. They still retract that wild instinct. We just take the captive-bred hatchings and CONDITION them to their behaviour. A puppy will naturally take to a human, but it can still be conditioned to become a rogue dog.

If you look at different domesticated animals, you will note that all of them are part of what we considered as highly-advanced social order such as a swarm, a herd, a flock or a pack.

Now -- with my point about the Europeans, it was just a snide comment at their hobby. It was not meant to be serious.

[Jessica Dring]

Oh dear. We do want an argument.
Firstly, you are one to comment on sprouting about things not related to the topic, arent you!?! Nope.

Secondly, No I am NOT getting confused with conditioned behaviour.. dont you tell me what I am and am not getting confused with, or I'm really going to see my arse here. We are not talking about WC thats a whole other matter, sorry but your straying again. Utter bull**** and worthlessness. Yes, you are right about the taking from the wild and 'taming down' but, look at the humble corn snake in captivity, it has to be THE most 'domesticated' (as a reptile could get), and you would certainly see a difference in a 'tamed down wc' individual and a wild caught.

Thirdly, Fight or flight is a REACTION AND AN INSTINCT, so its not helping YOUR case reffering dogs and wolves NOT MINE love. And you have just embarrassed yourself their by saying : 'Canis domesticus isn't as domesticated as we thought!' Lol, yet you were reffering to these as domesticated, and trying to prove a point to domesticated reptiles with this. Sorry but, I think if I were you now, I'd be extremely embarrassed.

Fourthly,
'Once again, conditioned behavior, not domestication. Example: if you were to introduce a deer to a family of golden retreivers, then depending on their personality, they would be fearful, ignorant, in the very least, probably reluctant to go near it. You put that same deer with a pack of wolves? Well, you see my point. Wolves know exactly what do with a deer. True, some dogs are trained to go after deer and other animals, but its exactly that...training, a form of conditioning.'

Sorry, I simply dont understand this post, You are chatting **** hun. Not trying to be a complete nob here, but if you explain this in terms of dogs and wolves, I might be able to understand it. May I also stress, conditioning is not much different from domesticating, whilst I will admit it does have differences, look at what your saying. Domesticating is simply, conditioning over a much longer period, therefor you have short-term domesticating (or conditioning).


No problem, it simply means 'cant be arsed' :)

fifthly, I will not read that thread, because im on this one and on many other websites, and it doesnt interest me. Your right, I probably would learn something, your attitude comes across that you think you have nothing to learn, sorry if you dont you are, but thats how you come across. Listen for once, and accept abit of critisism (as I have) and YOU might learn something too.

he hasn't the space/money for a second cage
B.) he's simply too lazy to upkeep a second cage...and/or...
C.) he lacks the patience to wait until he can change A or B

No I dont get your drift, because this is UTTER BULL****. HE IS NOT LAZY NOR LACKING PATIENCE! SO STOP MAKING ANOTHER STUPID ACCUSATION. Have you ever thought, that IF, AND ONLY IF, done correctly, it can be pleasing (and actually beneficial in many ways to the animals eg: more space... they get to be more 'wild' (since thats what you think anyway:)) in this setup? I myself, considering I had the space, time and money would opt for this method myself, but quite simply I dont. I had tortoises with my green iguana, none of them suffered ill effects, and whilst I did save money (still money though to run the whole cage.. i might add ) I had my tortoises in a setup before this, and I thought they would appreciate more room, which they did. So was I lazy? No. Thats your opinion because you do not agree with the method presented, though I certainly see no wrong in this, if all these animals are compatible (to say the least) this INCLUDES with eachother, with habitat and conditions.

[Ophiuchus]

(sighs) Okay...I'm done with this one....like arguing with a brick.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

[Jessica Dring]

I am just saying they think it's from a plant due to the discovery they made with a tribe in New Guinea who used the same toxin from a beetle. How could the tribe known that? Simple, they just know from the knowledge of their local surroundings.

Because of that discovery, people are starting to theorize that is not from the ants -- but rather those beetles can be found worldwide. Some of them are going even further and theorizing that it is from the plants that are being consumed by the PDF's prey since there are PDF that are too small to eat the beetle.

TheBloodyIrish: I apologise then. I thought you were going to start a thread about different tribes, I shouldnt have had a go about this, and thanks for your input where they are learning this comes from. I did not understand what you where saying properly. However, I meant all along, these anphibians dont get their posion directly from plants, as suggested. I personally, have reasons to believe it is self made, because these animals are BORN with (well born to produce) colours that indicate they are poisonous.. enough said. But I really dont want to get into that because there will be huge arguments about it, as nothing on that subject is for definate:)

No I dont need to rethink or re-read domestication, because this can never be shortened into a term used in a dictionary and left at that, sorry to say. How ever, I accept I may have come across that I was suggesting domestication means 'tame' So sorry if I did come across as this, I never meant that. Though I disagree with' no reptiles are tame from birth' Lets first, look at 'tame' this simply means 'puts up with handling without aggression' So, considering this, think of leopard geckos, bearded dragons, spiders (chilean roses in particular) and royal pythons (who often need, if any, next to NONE taming). You would consider these animals to be 'tame' when born, so yes, you would actually consider these animals domesticated if, your statement is true. Good point though :D
I didnt see a comment about europeans :S lol

[Jessica Dring]

(sighs) Okay...I'm done with this one....like arguing with a brick.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

One: If you are so bored (I am pointing to the (Sighs) you keep making.. feel welcome to leave this thread.. no one is forcing you to be a prick.

Two: Are you 'done with this' because you cant find anything to make more points about, if indeed, you were concerned for animals welfare, (as you suggested was at a risk due to the habitat being suggested made for them) then you would WANT to prove me wrong, so others could see these animals were at risk.
I rest my case :)

[TheBloodyIrish]

When you decided to comment about my reserved policy about mixing herps, I pointed to the Europeans that were keeping PDFs with other type of lizards and snakes.

Of course, I am guilty of mixing them -- but in my defense, it just happens. I keep my vivariums open -- except for gecko's vivariums. Somehow house geckos get in into my vivariums all the time. I don't keep, well buy I means, house geckos. I am still puzzled why they are always in every building I live in. The same applies for cornsnakes -- but they cause no problems... you just find them in people's basements.

I used to pick out geckos and put them in spare tanks, but now I give up.
Even if I cover the display vivariums, the geckos keep finding a way in them. So, I just let them go and leave as they wish.

[Ophiuchus]

Two: Are you 'done with this' because you cant find anything to make more points about, if indeed, you were concerned for animals welfare, (as you suggested was at a risk due to the habitat being suggested made for them) then you would WANT to prove me wrong, so others could see these animals were at risk.
I rest my case :)

I care deeply. It's just so futile to make people see their mistakes sometimes.

The sighs are just a reaction to knowing that I've done all I can to make people see the light, and also from knowing that its not enough.

[Jessica Dring]

Oh onto the post. Europeans. Hmm I think you will find others than just 'europeans' keep animals this way, and that alot more in your own country, are also to blame for keeping animals incorrectly. TheBloodyIrish, would keeping your vivs open not cause problems for your animals inside them (eg keeping conditions right etc)? Not making a stabb at you, I'm simply wondering lol

[Jessica Dring]

Ok Ophiuchus, I get your point. Fair enough:)
But, can I ask, what do I need to see the light on? What mistake am I PERSONALLY making? Because those sighs were undoubtadly made at me. I see the way I keep my animals in no way wrong, (or different, is a better way of putting it, to the way you keep your animals) and since you dont know me or how I keep my pets neither, I feel you are unable to comment on me seeing the 'light', as it were, if, indeed, this were aimed at me (apologies if it was not).
I also get the impression you see nothing you do concerning your animals wrong. The first step into successfull animal keeping is seeing, you cant do everything right, and will always make mistakes. Once you accept this, you then go on to learn from and NOT make these mistakes in the future. Its the only way to keep reptiles, it has to be learnt. Sorry if you dont mean to come across this way, it just seems you have that kind of snotty/head up your backside attitude that see's nothing wrong in what they do. Though it may sound it, I'm not trying to have a go now, I'm just trying to educate (and help YOU see the light;)) that, if you didnt come across that, people will (a given fact) be more willing to listen and put your theories into practise, so consider it advice, or well- meaning help, if you will
:):):)

[TheBloodyIrish]

Nah, the Europeans know what they are doing. We just don't suggest it since those types of vivariums (when it is properly done) are high-maintenance. For most of them -- that is the only vivarium that they maintain. I have seen some that are done properly locally, but the owners just tear them down after two to three months because it was just too much for them. You gotta admit, the average Canadian or American does not have the time to devote to such a such big task. In the North American culture, it is quantity -- not quality that matter... if you know what I means.


Keeping my vivariums open is not a problem since
I have hydrogears installed to keep track of the humidity inside the tank -- and as well as the room. I only had one problem with my setup, and that was when people used to put stuff such as beer or another critter in them which caused unnatural death. I just make the vivariums higher so people can't reach the opening. Amazingly, the vivariums can maintain themselves when they are 8 feet tall.

[Jessica Dring]

Dear oh dear, going to attack our method of animal keeping are we? Well, who says, You 'canadians' have any less time than us, for a start. We are not any better or worse off than you, so really, slagging the way we keep animals is not going down well with me. Tbh, keeping reptiles captive in its own is unjust and cruel, no matter where you are from. So its not one to get into really, there is no eveidence to suggest we are more cruel to them than you are. :)
Oh btw, thats interesting about your vivs !

[TheBloodyIrish]

Ah, I didn't realize you were from England. Sorry! I thought you were an American. Sure taught me to look at the location field more often.

The best kept community vivariums I have seen are in countries where labour laws limit shifts to 8 working hours a day. Here in North America, it is about 12 or 14 hours, or sometimes more.

Over here, we just have a different opinion about herp-keeping, and that is maintaining a species tank rather than a community tank.

I have to admit, I do want a community vivarium -- but I don't make enough to work part-time so I can give the herps the attention they need on a daily basis. Also, it is kinda of a social taboo where I live to work part-time if you are capable of working overtime during a full-time job. So, when I am not in school -- I am out there putting out 12 hours a day -- sometimes I go out into the field and not come back for a month.

[Jessica Dring]

Actually, come to england, you will suprised.. you wont find many who agree with keeping even one or more animals (let alone different species) in the same set up (unless of course its the like oh tree frogs that are together anyway) lol
Thats a new lease to think about, its not lies neither! lol

[Ophiuchus]

Well, I wasn't attempting to attack anyone personally, even though I know it comes across this way. I just merely respond to each person's comment one-on-one at a time, and I suppose it seems like I'm targeting that person specifically. I'm also aware that my personality doesn't help. I generally don't like having to spout off all the experience I have just to prove my knowledge on these matters. In regards to my harsh approach to hot issues like this, I'm probably not going to change. I worked in petstores for over 8 years, and I hate suger-coating my advice to the layman. I've found that while it sometimes hurts feelings, it usually succeeds in driving my points home. And I'm human and I get really passionate about some of these issues, especially when I think that someone is totally disregarding good advice (whether it came from me or not). So my advice to everyone in the future is to take my comments at face-value; try to look past my demeanor and focus on the points I present.

Having said that, I understand that everyone has an opinion, and its very rare for any two people to share the same one. Perhaps thats why the world is in such a sad state...but that's definitely another topic. Despite my emotions, I try my darndest to keep an open and objective mind. Whenever I voice a strong opinion about something, I try to back it up with facts and my own experiences...not just basing it solely on my feelings. So I resent it when people accuse me of talking out of my ass, etc, because I do my best to keep up with all current information dealing with herps, and although I'm still relatively young (25, in case there was any doubt), I've witnessed and experienced a lot, not just in my own animals but with others' as well.

Jessica, when you made this comment...

I will not read that thread, because im on this one and on many other websites, and it doesnt interest me

...it really frustrated me because it gave me the impression that you thought you knew it all and that you "have that kind of snotty/head up your backside attitude that see's nothing wrong in what they do." I really feel that you couldv'e at least honored my request to look at that thread and then give your opinion of it. In my opinion, a person can never learn too much and that as cliche as it is "reading is knowledge and knowledge is power." Whenever I find myself in a position similar to yours and someone challenges me to look at something, I do it. Because even though it may turn out that I was wrong and (Godforbid) I have to admit it, I'll at least have learned something new and become that much more knowledgeable on the subject.

That's what really gets me fired up. And of course, when someone is genuinely aware of all the facts and still disregards it for their own gratification (like Large_cichlids), then that's just stupid, and I hate stupidity.

[Jessica Dring]

'Well, I wasn't attempting to attack anyone personally, even though I know it comes across this way. I just merely respond to each person's comment one-on-one at a time, and I suppose it seems like I'm targeting that person specifically. I'm also aware that my personality doesn't help. I generally don't like having to spout off all the experience I have just to prove my knowledge on these matters. In regards to my harsh approach to hot issues like this, I'm probably not going to change. I worked in petstores for over 8 years, and I hate suger-coating my advice to the layman. I've found that while it sometimes hurts feelings, it usually succeeds in driving my points home. And I'm human and I get really passionate about some of these issues, especially when I think that someone is totally disregarding good advice (whether it came from me or not). So my advice to everyone in the future is to take my comments at face-value; try to look past my demeanor and focus on the points I present.'

Sorry but working in buisness mate, I have only one thing to say. YOU SHOULD NO BETTER. You should be better at handling/talking AND COMMUNICATING to people and you should know (As a customer to pet shops myself) that people arent gonna take crap off you whilst paying you, and I know, if I some one working in a pet shop gave me grief for coming out and admitting my mistakes and needing advice, that I would NOT (I repeat.. NOT) WANT to, niether put into practise, listening to you, nor would most other people. The undoubtadly best way to talk to people is to talk to them the way you would want to be talked to yourself, and since you 'care' so much about these animals, hopefully you can realise/admit your mistake and learn from it, doing a much better job at getting people to care for their animals better.

'Having said that, I understand that everyone has an opinion, and its very rare for any two people to share the same one. Perhaps thats why the world is in such a sad state...but that's definitely another topic. Despite my emotions, I try my darndest to keep an open and objective mind. Whenever I voice a strong opinion about something, I try to back it up with facts and my own experiences...not just basing it solely on my feelings. So I resent it when people accuse me of talking out of my ass, etc, because I do my best to keep up with all current information dealing with herps, and although I'm still relatively young (25, in case there was any doubt), I've witnessed and experienced a lot, not just in my own animals but with others' as well.'

OK well in all fairness this proves my point of 'head up their ass'
You may well know alot and have worked in a pet shop, and well done to you if you have gained vaulable knowledge that none of us could (the way its coming across).. No, seriously, well done, but that is NO GOOD AT ALL if you think you are ALWAYS RIGHT and NEVER MAKE MISTAKES and ARE NOT OPEN TO CRITISIM. Maybe thats where me and you differ, I take critisim and being wrong much better. No, infact, I actually take it.

'Jessica, when you made this comment...


Quote:
I will not read that thread, because im on this one and on many other websites, and it doesnt interest me
...it really frustrated me because it gave me the impression that you thought you knew it all and that you "have that kind of snotty/head up your backside attitude that see's nothing wrong in what they do." I really feel that you couldv'e at least honored my request to look at that thread and then give your opinion of it. In my opinion, a person can never learn too much and that as cliche as it is "reading is knowledge and knowledge is power." Whenever I find myself in a position similar to yours and someone challenges me to look at something, I do it. Because even though it may turn out that I was wrong and (Godforbid) I have to admit it, I'll at least have learned something new and become that much more knowledgeable on the subject.

That's what really gets me fired up. And of course, when someone is genuinely aware of all the facts and still disregards it for their own gratification (like Large_cichlids), then that's just stupid, and I hate stupidity' '

Oh dear, too much in the mind here I fear I might not type it all.
Lets start with me not looking at the thread. Ok, you are right, I could have looked at it, fair enough. But if you had ASKED ME, IN A HUMANE WAY to look at your thread/post and not TOLD ME LIKE I'M A SCHOOL CHILD then I may have took to it better and had a look. EG: COMMUNICATING PROPER = GETTING BETTER OUTCOMES AND PEOPLE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT. This is where your communicating skills wont give you the justice you deserve for working in a pet shop and knowing more (as you think you do, because of this!) than us. If were a good communicator, you quite simply, would have got respect straight away. I hope you will acknowledge this.

'In my opinion, a person can never learn too much and that as cliche as it is "reading is knowledge and knowledge is power." '

Oh dear, you need to take a page out of your own book dear, you STILL have not grasped the context you are not above me and therefore still have things to learn.

'Whenever I find myself in a position similar to yours and someone challenges me to look at something, I do it. Because even though it may turn out that I was wrong and (Godforbid) I have to admit it, I'll at least have learned something new and become that much more knowledgeable on the subject.'

Deary me, you are firing me up on your post. Because, I enjoy chatting and discussing with those knowledgable, but I soppose I could never have time for somebody so hypercritical to say the least. Dear, the only reason you rise to a 'challenge' is to get your head even higher than the rest of us, to prove somebody wrong, and to generally, try and make a tit out of the rest of us. Well you have met your new challenge here, I dont kindly to people who think they are higher than me at all, and who, quite frankly, dont give a ****. Even admitting yourself that you would not want to admit you are wrong, questions the fact that you ever have/will. This again is a KEY communication and learning skill, and I'm sorry to say you are not a reptile keeper till you can do either of the above mentioned. It makes me wonder how popular you were with enquiring customers, as I know I would never reccomend the shop you worked in to my friends, if you had reacted this way to me in person. I think, deep down you have great knowledge, but your total lack of communication or even hospitality to people, prevents this from being reconised, and I doubt you ever will change your ways, which is a shame, because MORE people could have the chance to learn more about their pets that they keep.

'I'll at least have learned something new and become that much more knowledgeable on the subject.'

Give it up. You will NEVER admit you have nor have had ANYTHING to learn, and are in any way at fault.

'That's what really gets me fired up. And of course, when someone is genuinely aware of all the facts and still disregards it for their own gratification (like Large_cichlids), then that's just stupid, and I hate stupidity.'

That was made at more than one person wasnt it?
Well all i have to say to that is you are pathetic my son. If you are so high and mighty, you might have pity on those surcome to stupidity. And calling me and others (and more over, getting personal) is going to get you even more unpopular. Tell you what, if your really not after an argument, leave it at that, and come back when your ready to talk to me like I am a human being, that is NOT below you, and is not any less worth than you, because if you dont my next post will not be a nice one. You may not mean to come across this way, but you have acknowlegded I strongly feel this way and, more over, do not care, so I dont have any time to parcitipate in any more conversations/discussions with you, until you feel it will get you some where in life to be at least approachable in this term. Like I said, I do not doubt IN ANY WAY you do not have great knowledge so take and relish that compliment, but your communication sucks. And without that, how are you going to pass that knowledge on? Think about it hun. That is the only real stupidity here. ;)

[Ophiuchus]

Sorry, I wasn't clear earlier...during my employment as a petstore clerk, the alleged "dark side" many of you witness on this forum was not shown on the clock. My point was that during my many encounters with customers, the happy, suger-coating method that upper management encouraged so much often failed to make the customers see the errors of their ways...but hey, it doesn't matter if their pets die, as long as the customers feel all warm and fuzzy right?

So after years of having to doing things the "nice and polite" way (which rarely proved effective), I pulled off the smiling face and simply call things how I see them. I know its not the Golden Rule, but when people start acting rude and immature with me, I'll stoop to their level and return the fire.

Manners aside, I never said that I know everything, and that I'm incapable of learning more. Nor did I ever say that I know more than anyone else. You're making that assumption simply because I happen to disagree with you.

[Oh darn...you're really not good at this sarcasm thing, are you? I just realized that you must have misinterpreted the "godforbid" bit. Once more, it was sarcasm.] To be quite honest, that's probably how I've learned half of what I know thus far; someone else proved me wrong at something, and I had to eat my hat.

Like I said, I've never claimed to be an expert at anything. I'm not going to be drawn into a pissing contest to see who knows more, or who has had more experience, or whatever. That appears to be what you want because you're so insistent on proving that you know more than me. That may indeed be the case, and it may not; I could care less. I know lots of herpers that are far more experienced and knowledgeable than I, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I can take criticism; but if someone says I'm wrong, they better be able to prove it. (BTW, no one has yet to address or give adequate evidence that personal curiousity is grounds for compromising the well-being of their pets..[shrugs])

I'm not going to post my resume or anything on this site, because it really doesn't matter. But if someone makes a statement or gives an opinion without any substantial evidence to back it up, I will call them out on it.

I never called you stupid, Jess, or thought that you knew nothing about reptiles. Up until the point where you made it adamant that you didn't want to learn anything new, I had no ill perceptions of your knowledge because you were just simply stating your opinion. When you made the statement that you wouldn't read that thread, and gave your reasons for that decision, that's when my opinion of you declined (which IMO made you more human in my eyes, not less).

Unless you want to get back to the topic of mixing herps, then please direct any further bantor to a PM. Or feel free to email me at: MDCLeviathan@gmail.com or you might even catch me on AIM with the screenname of "mdckcobra"

[Jessica Dring]

'I'm not going to be drawn into a pissing contest to see who knows more, or who has had more experience, or whatever. That appears to be what you want because you're so insistent on proving that you know more than me. That may indeed be the case, and it may not; I could care less. I know lots of herpers that are far more experienced and knowledgeable than I.'

Love, I have not once stated how high my knowledge is, or anything of the sort, where as you have, eg: pet shop etc, I have not once complimented myself, I have merely been complimenting you a fair few times, so dont use that one.

'I'm not going to post my resume or anything on this site, because it really doesn't matter. But if someone makes a statement or gives an opinion without any substantial evidence to back it up, I will call them out on it.'

This is another thing that is just plain arrogant, you will not resume anything else on this site, because YOU want to have the last word/say and therefor be resumed right (in your own mind..you will be -that is if you do not re read this thread!)

As for the methods you have used, I really cannot comment further because I have not had the fortunate experience of working in a pet shop, so I can no longer comment on what theoretically, or is proved or to you, personally, works.

No you never to be an expert or better than others, but your attitude implyed it. I simply feel you should try a more warming approach, because incase you didnt notice you are actualy dealing with humans alot more than reptiles!

'how I've learned half of what I know thus far; someone else proved me wrong at something, and I had to eat my hat.'

If that be true, then I can well and truly take back all I said about you not accepting ever being wrong etc (though I still have yet to see it)

As for emailing you etc, sorry but like I stated before.. lets not get personal about it, this is just that, a forum where nothing should be personal.

'when people start acting rude and immature with me, I'll stoop to their level and return the fire.'

Of course you should do this, if people act this way with you, but you were stating you are this way to start with. I feel that as you were/are (I dont know) in buisness, and were/are getting paid for it, you should come out with a more than helpful and happy face and attitude on, then I see no reason that if they are rude to you, to do the same back, I was never saying otherwise.


Now, back to the thread as it was meant to be! :)

[walls]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I dont think there is a point in trying to even join in. That is one bullheaded woman there.:grinno:

[Jessica Dring]

Lol what does bullheaded mean

[Ophiuchus]

Main Entry: bullheaded
Part of Speech: adjective 2
Definition: not listening
Synonyms: blind, headstrong, indifferent, intractable, oblivious, obstinate, pertinacious, perverse, pigheaded*, self-willed, strong-willed, stubborn, unconcerned, unhearing, unmoved

[Jessica Dring]

ahh right
cheers Walls