Figure of 8 puffer fish

[vyasa]

Hello. I'm new to this website. I've recently (6 months ago) bought an aquarium. I have a number of questions for a number of fish so I'll post to the appropriate forums. I have a 2'ish inch figure of 8 puffer fish. He's quite a lively sort. Its probably my most nervous purchases (in hind sight) as I read many sites with various opinions on whether to add salt to the water as I understand it favours brackish water or that it can happily live without it. Can someone point me in the right direction as don't want to adversly affect my other fish. I have 2 pictus, 1 clown loach, 2 corydoras, 1 striped talking catfish, some neons, 1 malawi cichlid, 1 angel, 2 tiger barbs, 1 clown pleco and 2 siamese fighting fish. My tank size is 18" x 12" x 15"(h).

Thanks

Ash

[guppy]

Hello there vyasa, welcome to MFK!
The figure eight puffer under that name in fishbase is T. palembangensis but what is usually sold as figure eights is listed as eyespot puffers which are smaller, 3" at full size. They are listed as true fresh water fish. They are also a bit nippy and sometimes eat small fish and love to nip fins, I think this is the one that tore up a tank of angels for me once.
Both this and the other are listed in several sources as not needing salt. If you tank is 18"x12"x15" on the INSIDE it is barely a 13g tank and if that is the outer dimesions it is a 12G. It is over loaded and you will soon have problems. I suggest you get at least a 20g or larger for the pictus, angel, clown pleco, clown loach, and one betta, and the neons, leaving the others in the 12g. Angel reach over 4" alone. In the future it would probably be best to look up the fish before buying.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but your tank is seriousy overcrowded.

[mbierzyc]

a figure 8 puffer needs a brackish water tank to survive. i would keep salinity at .008. They can live in fresh water, but will die very young, you're going to need a new tank for all of your fish, so keep the freshwater fish in one, and make another a brackish tank. If you use the 12gal for brackish, you'd probably do fine with one more figure 8 puffer.

[guppy]

mbierzyc,
can you point me to where you got your info, what I have been reading, including in Fishbase says both the eyespot and the figure 8 are true freshwater fish and several sites say they do better in fresh than in brackish or salt.
Vyasa, could post a pic?

[guppy]

I have just gone through 11 pages of web links and it seems there is still some controversy about these. So far it is 4 to 1 that they are freshwater, this includes fishbase.
this site gives some clear info, www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/figure8mxl a another source (one I trust) is www.fishbase.org

The sites that say they are brackish are mainly british or german and the one site that said they were saltwater was french. The sites also tend to disagree on maximum length with most saying 3", a few saying 6-8" and one saying 12".

The name was first eyespot pufferfish and in some places still is but most often it is called figure8, and the latin for it was first Tetraodon biocellatus, then T. palembangensis, then T. strindahaieri, and now back to T. biocellatus.

Lots of fun.
the sites agree that they are at least semi-aggressive and should be fed at least some snails to control the growth of their beaks

[mbierzyc]

http://www.thepufferforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=64

that forum is a good place to learn about puffers, and "pufferpunk" the moderator and owner of the forum knows quite a bit. i kept my figure 8 in a brackish tank, but he was killed. from what i know, they can survive in freshwater, but thrive in brackish.

[Miles]

The puffer forum is a great source for info, but dosn't always mean they are 100% accurate.

I have gone rounds with Jeni about brackish water puffers and the likes, so I don't really want to get into it.

I keep my F8 puffer by himself (currently) in a 29g tank. It has no marine salt added to it, but I do add alot of aquarium salt for osmoregulatory purposes. I also used crushed coral for a substrate, and include sea-shells to make the water harder. My tap water runs about 7.8, but my puffer tank is about 8.2.

The key is to not let them live in softer water, which may lead people to believe the marine salt is a MUST. People who have very soft water out of the tap would obviously struggle with keeping this fish in 'freshwater', as it's nowhere near the appropriate conditions.

To say that the F8 puffer died, or will die because you didn't have it in brackish water is a very erranous statement. The fish could of died for a number of reasons, and it's hard to exactly pinpoint the reason unless your very educated in aquariology.

*Keep this in mind.. if your F8 puffer died while it was in freshwater, people who disagree with the thought of keeping F8s in FW, will use that opportunity to 'solidify' their own statements about how F8's should be kept in Brackish water. Everytime I have seen this happen, people often jump on the 'should of been in brackish' bandwagon, because it better suits their own opinion. It could of been a number of other reasons, as I have kept my F8 in freshwater for a couple years now with no problems at all.

[Miles]

PS. Your tank is overstocked, and that is the reason the F8 has yet to start killing off it's 'buddies'.. I would watch out for chomped fins. My little F8 will eat a comet goldfish 2x his size. Hes a savage.

[mbierzyc]

my figure 8 died just this morning, and was kept in a brackish tank. i woke up and found him stuck to the powerhead intake. he wasn't too small either, so somehow he was weakened and couldn't fight off the current. i had that powerhead in the tank for months too, so not sure why he died really, but i am not blaming salinity by any means.

[vyasa]

Thanks for the information. I'll check out the puffer forum although its sounds from what some of you have said that fresh water is the way to go. Just two weeks ago I think he went for two of my guppies. He made a real mess of them. I didn't mind too much as they were the product of a pregancy.

From putting my mind at rest on the issue of salinity of the water , now the issue of soft water. I clearly am going to the wrong aquarist for advice. He suggested softening the water. I live in the London area (UK) where the water is very hard. From reading the above posts it sounds like that isn't such a good idea. Are the current combination of fish ok or should I think of handing them to someone else ?

I did suspect that the tank was overstocked. I am planning to buy a 32" x 15" x 12" this xmas. What is the recommended number of fish for the current tank and what number for the dimensions mention above ?

[vyasa]

As of this morning, my siamese fighter fought its last fight. Shredded to pieces and cruelly barely alive. I take note of your advice. Less fish (or bigger tank).

[guppy]

I would give some thought to putting the puffer in a tank of at least 10g/38 liter with maybe the clown pleco cat,

by the way, though they are fairly slow growers striped talking cats can reach 8" long,

in your 12g/45 liter tank I would retain your remaining siamese fighter (betta), 5-6 neons, 5-6 glowlight or other small tetras or guppies, 3-4 zebra dianos, your cory cats, and your tiger barbs which will pretty much max it out for long term.
In your projected 25g/95 liter tank I would keep your remaining fish plus maybe 3 black skirt tetras and 3-5 silver hatchet fish and that would be about it. I would also add a couple bunches of anacharis/elodea plants to each tank.

There are many types of Malawi cichlid, some are a bit aggressive and some are not, and they range widely in adult size. Could you give us a picture or a very detailed description?

Bettas are called siamese fighting fish because they are very aggresive towards each other, so much so that staging fish fights is a popular betting sport in some places. They should not be kept with other bettas.

[spryandspringy]

Hello, and welcome to MFK! The thing I noticed second about your setup (the first being overcrowding) is that you have many different types of fish with many different requirements in the same tank. The species you listed need different pH, temperature, decor (e.h. hiding places vs. wide open space), some prefer live plants while others would only shred them, and I saw many opportunities in your list for one fish to end up in another's mouth. :WHOA:

How about this: Instead of getting one larger aquarium, see if you get get a deal on several small, separate aquariums. Check auction sites, online petstores, and your LFS to see if you can find a price break on buying several at once. Then you could set them up, each to satisfy the needs of a few of your specimens.

Another option: Is there one particular fish or type of fish among yours that you really like? You might consider "breaking up the family" and finding new homes for the non-compatible species, once you determine the type of setup you'll need for the fish you really want.

That's my two cents (1/2 cent after taxes.) ;)

[vyasa]

Unfortunately I live in a flat where space is at a premium. The 25g tank is the largest I can accommodate for now without 1) my girlfriend leaving me 2) the floor collapsing under the weight. Having multiple tanks is not really a good option. Since reading all the posts I've think the best thing to do is to figure out which fish to give away and wish to keep.

I think I'd rather breakup the family as this is my first attempt at keeping tropical fish. I used to keep goldfish and wanted to do something more challenging. I was hoping to keep the pictus, pleco, talking cat and F8 if poss with perhaps new additions with the new tank. Any suggestions for this combo ?

[Mourinho18]

what if you just keep that smaller tank and dedicate it to the figure eight and turn it into a brackish. They have awesome personalities and you'll find yourself falling for the little guy.

[vyasa]

Thanks everyone for all your good advice. I'm a lot wiser now.

[oscar1]

my friend never had brackish water for his and it is doing just great . but as guppy said your tank is seriously overcrowded so u better get a new tank or get rid of some fish or your in for some trouble.

[Mourinho18]

hate to kind of deviate from your opening question but i've got a question for miles about the figure eight. I want to start up a new aquarium with these guys and I was wondering what size tank i would need for a group of these guys because I really want to try to get a pair? and do you have experience with other types of freshwater puffers, and which kinds, and which would you recommend for sayyyy, a 30 gallon or so? thanks

[Miles]

I would go with 2, maybe 3 max in a 30g.

Heavily plant the tank as much as possible, so they stay entertained and have boundaries..

Good luck breeding them, I have only 'read' accounts of people spawning them, with a very low success rate on raising the fry. Your best bet is to just keep a pair of happy puffers in a 30g. I keep a single one in a 29g, soon to add a knight goby and a Butis Butis for tankmates.

Miles

[rweedon]

clown pleco will stay small enough to live in a 10 gal for life...