IDEA : Japanese Style Filtration...

[neoprodigy]

i always want to do a Japanese Style Filtration... here are some ideas... you can see they fully submerge the bio media...

[unknownuza13]

Thanks for the idea...

[Nic]

hmmm might try that possible denitrification

[Miguel]

So do I.. wet/dry is an exception..I have a small 500litres/hour subsystem in my sump...but all my remaining biological media is submerged and in the flow of water...

[BIGgourami]

other than water level what's the diff between them and wet/dry sumps?

[rallysman]

The media used looks slightly different that typical wet/dry media. Looks to be a porous ceramic material.

[dougefresh]

god that's awesome.......

[Potts050]

wet-dry systems have to be more efficient since more oxygen will be available to the bacteria than in completly submerged systems. You would therefore need a smaller sump and a lower flow rate.
Am I missing something with the Japanese system?

[me_wee_todded]

wet-dry systems have to be more efficient since more oxygen will be available to the bacteria than in completly submerged systems. You would therefore need a smaller sump and a lower flow rate.
Am I missing something with the Japanese system?

Yeah i thought that was the whole idea behind dripping the water over the bio-media

[BIGgourami]

do anaerobic bacteria break down nitrate better then aerobic?

[is300zx]

do anaerobic bacteria break down nitrate better then aerobic?

as far as i know only anaerobic bacteria can break down nitrate.

[Dr Joe]

They sure are pretty huh!?! And the size...imagine dragging those bags of material out to clean them :nilly:.
Can we say"'pre-filtered UGF" ?! :ROFL: .

hmmm might try that possible denitrification

Nope, too much flow, light and oxygen.

.
do anaerobic bacteria break down nitrate better then aerobic?

Nope, aerobic bacteria only doesn't break down nitrates, only ammonia/nitrItes.

What?...No comments on the frames needing bracing...:ROFL:

Dr Joe

.

[vanilla__gorilla__]

got any good links so we can check them out

[BIGgourami]

as far as i know only anaerobic bacteria can break down nitrate.


what am i thinking of that turns nitrates into nitrogen gas?

[Tainted Glory]

I'm actually planning something similar to this for my 210g. I've got 2 Model 3 wet/dry's from AGA that I plan running as normal with bioballs. Then in the space after the bioballs, I'm going to have a nice layer of ceramic rings. I've heard nothing about good things and I'm sure it will help with the inevitable over stocking.

[ewurm]

Holy crap! That is a lot of bio media in the sump. You could probably buy the Aros cheaper than buying all that media! LOL

[wangster11235]

so what do the japanese know that we dont?

[johnptc]

so what do the japanese know that we dont?


this filter is the exact opposite of the famous japanese bakki ( sp?) shower filter.......tons of flow...tons of air...........great water quality :popcorn: :popcorn:

eg http://www.bakkishower.co.uk/

[AquataHolic420]

Awesome fish in those tanks, the filtration does sumthing right..

[unknownuza13]

Awesome fish in those tanks, the filtration does sumthing right..

exactly....

[Cichlas]

what am i thinking of that turns nitrates into nitrogen gas?

anaerobic bacteria

[fish head )'>]

Would this be the same type of beneficial bacteria that is in my canisters ceramic rings, which is different than the stuff in my wet/dry? :nilly:
Is one better than the other?:nilly: :nilly:
Is it best to have both types?:nilly: :nilly: :nilly:
does it matter?

[Dr Joe]

Would this be the same type of beneficial bacteria that is in my canisters ceramic rings, which is different than the stuff in my wet/dry? :nilly:
Is one better than the other?:nilly: :nilly:
Is it best to have both types?:nilly: :nilly: :nilly:
does it matter?


In a very limited amount (if you believe the advertising).

No, they are completely different (so to speak).

Yes.

Yes.

There are several threads on this in here so I won't repeat things.

Dr Joe

.

[Taz2478]

that's a lot of media...:nilly:

does look like they have ugf and just open the pipe to clean.

so do they ever clean it???:popcorn:

[Jesse]

My guess is that the reduced amount of square footage in most Japanese homes compared to U.S. homes is the reason for this design. The use of ceramic media gives a greater surface area to volume ratio and takes up less room than the comparatively bulky plastic bio-balls. Thus, it's a trade off between the higher efficiency but space consuming wet-dry for greater biomedia surface area. Plus, I'm sure it's more quiet than a wet/dry and, therefore, more suitable for use in close quarters.

[softturtle]

Didn't look like there was to much space saving going on there. The wet dry for my 300 is half the size of those monsters... if not smaller. I have seen a few of the type sumps popping up around here. Kinda reminds me of a saltwater sump with a filter media instead of live rock.

[Jesse]

Didn't look like there was to much space saving going on there.
But the surface area is likely higher than a comparably sized wet/dry would provide.

[Dr Joe]

But the surface area is likely higher than a comparably sized wet/dry would provide.


I gotta challenge that...scrubbies have 370 cu.ft. of surface area per.

Dr Joe

.

[johnptc]

I gotta challenge that...scrubbies have 370 cu.ft. of surface area per.

Dr Joe

.


typo ?? 370 sq ft per cubic foot ???

[StiffMeister]

most of my sump media is fully submerged too, similar to the pics shown.

[Dr Joe]

typo ?? 370 sq ft per cubic foot ???


Sorry, in too much of a hurry today. Here's a ref. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wernersponds.com/scrubbies.jpg&imgrefurl=http://wernersponds.com/biofiltermedia.htm&h=249&w=453&sz=50&hl=en&start=44&tbnid=pQYJWSNv7jViBM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpot%2Bscrubbers%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3 D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Dr Joe

.

[Jesse]

Dr. Joe, I was referring to bio-balls in a wet/dry, which are only 96 sf/cf according to the source you provided. Obviously, pot scrubbers would provide a higher surface area/volume ratio.

[sitporn]

fully submerged dosn't mean no O2.

[Mr Pleco]

Interesting twist on UG plates in a seperate tank

[MilitantPotato]

fully submerged dosn't mean no O2.

Our atmosphere has 209,000PPM of O2, water, at 80F has 8-10ppm of O2. SOURCE for O2 in our atmosphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air)
Source for Dissolved oxygen in water (http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/do.html)

Emersed media gets a lot more O2.

[Dr Joe]

MilitantPotato,

Even confusion runs amuck in my brain...Did you mean what I read or what you said?

[MistirE]

Awesome thread Neo.... very interesting topic, however I gotta go to work but bookmarked in in my sub threads

[milkman407]

The media they use you do not have to clean, Only the floss you have to clean.
And if you notice, they have an area where the water drops into floss than is pushed into the media(so it is getting o2)

[ApacheDan]

.....hummmm this whole japanese setup looks to me more like a coarse sand filter than a wet-dry....:screwy:

[johnptc]

MilitantPotato,

Even confusion runs amuck in my brain...Did you mean what I read or what you said?


i believe the potato got his facts scrambled....:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

sounds like lots of O2 in air and very little in water and hence bio media exposed to the atmosphere would have lots more O2... no ???

[Loubard]

I am real interested in the flowrate of those filters.

[Dr Joe]

Qui...

[jdepasqu2]

probably not the place or time to ask BUT......., I was always under the assumption that nitrates cant be removed from the water other than by plants....., there is bacteria that removes nitrates????? but maybe only in small amounts????? i'm confused can some give a quick run down of the cyles in a biological filter....., just to set this thread straight....., Dr. Joe???

[johnptc]

probably not the place or time to ask BUT......., I was always under the assumption that nitrates cant be removed from the water other than by plants....., there is bacteria that removes nitrates????? but maybe only in small amounts????? i'm confused can some give a quick run down of the cyles in a biological filter....., just to set this thread straight....., Dr. Joe???

aerobic bacteria: ammonia>nitrite>nitate

Anaerobic ( lacking O2) :bacteria breaks nitrates down

[fish head )'>]

....and water changes. three types of filtration: mechanical, chemical and biological filtration. The latter is what we are talking about here; used in most canister and wet/dry filters. -----and bio-wheels. There are two types of bacteria that are helpful that we are trying to colonize in the different medias.

[johnptc]

....and water changes. three types of filtration: mechanical, chemical and biological filtration. The latter is what we are talking about here; used in most canister and wet/dry filters. -----and bio-wheels. There are two types of bacteria that are helpful that we are trying to colonize in the different medias.


there are two types of bacteria which are aerobic ammonia>>nitrite
and nitrite>>nitrate
bio balls, trickle filters, bio wheels

then a third Anaerobic bacteria which breaks down nitrates...this only occurs in the absence of O2...such as water moving very very slowly thru sand or gravel....

[neoprodigy]

im going to do similar type of setup... except i will add air stone on the bottom and blow air up...

[ozz465]

im going to do similar type of setup... except i will add air stone on the bottom and blow air up...
I believe a member here has a set up like that , has a multi stage w/d with airstones under the bio material , I believe mudskippy

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88271

I really want to build it that way . just need the right size dimensions on a tank to be my sump.

[Hot Slime]

hmmm interesting.

[islander671]

im going to do similar type of setup... except i will add air stone on the bottom and blow air up...

Mine are set up like that, in the event of a power outage the battery powered pumps take over and keep pushing air thru the media.

[manbai]

wow...i hv to say that would be an awesome filtration! thnx for the idea

[Dr Joe]

im going to do similar type of setup... except i will add air stone on the bottom and blow air up...

What size?

[neoprodigy]

What size?
my sump will be a rubbermaid stock tub setup either a 100gallon (52"L x 31"W x 25"H) or 150gallon (58"L x 39"W x 25"H)

[polish]

This doesn't seem that new to me, I mean all my canister filters and HOB filters have the media fully submerged. How is this different other than using a sump style setup?

[neoprodigy]

This doesn't seem that new to me, I mean all my canister filters and HOB filters have the media fully submerged. How is this different other than using a sump style setup?

yes.. filtration is actually an old old idea... its the same concept as gravel is a medium of media also. the concept is to show that you dont need wet/dry on the media.. you can just pack the media...

[polish]

Oh ok, I just thought I was missing something.

[Merbeast]

MilitantPotato,

Even confusion runs amuck in my brain...Did you mean what I read or what you said?

He means what he said. Emersed means "risen out of water". Emersed filter media is wet, but not submersed (under water). Wet but not submersed media has more O2 available to it than submersed media does.

i believe the potato got his facts scrambled....:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

sounds like lots of O2 in air and very little in water and hence bio media exposed to the atmosphere would have lots more O2... no ???
That is exactly what MilitantPotato said.

[Merbeast]

yes.. filtration is actually an old old idea... its the same concept as gravel is a medium of media also. the concept is to show that you dont need wet/dry on the media.. you can just pack the media...

Barring the need for a more compact unit, what would the advantage be to switching to fully submersed media? If you have room for a 100 gallon stock tank, why not make it a wet/dry? You will save money on the filter media as you can use less to do more. Just wondering.

[neoprodigy]

Barring the need for a more compact unit, what would the advantage be to switching to fully submersed media? If you have room for a 100 gallon stock tank, why not make it a wet/dry? You will save money on the filter media as you can use less to do more. Just wondering.
the more media .. the more you can stock your tank...

[ozz465]

the more media .. the more you can stock your tank...
Agreed , thinking about doing this myself , eventually my filter would rivel my tanks capacity , so ill pack in the fish :)

[silverdragon]

this is exactly how my tanks filtered, ill take a shot of my sump and post up when i get home from work..

[Nic]

with filter socks and all submerged media i did notice my tank to be cleaner and i never had any problems with my params

[Potts050]

the more media .. the more you can stock your tank...

IMHO you are still limited by how fast you produce nitrates, regardless of the volume of media or the flow rate. A bigger filter with a higher stock load means more frequent water changes or a bigger drip system...

[HPIZZLE]

i always want to do a Japanese Style Filtration... here are some ideas... you can see they fully submerge the bio media...
?

[martiyou]

Didn't they call these wet/wet systems in the early 90's?

[CHOMPERS]

Wow, I haven't heard them called a wet/wet in eons. That was when wet/dry's were becoming popular. Call it a wet sump and everyone will immediately know what you are talking about. You use to be able to just call it a sump but now everyone thinks of a wet/dry when you do.

[Mattyou]

My wife never ceases to amaze me. That is a blast from the past for sure. Wet/Wet was earlier that the 90's I am pretty sure, but yes, wet/wet is a term that died.

[ultimatejay]

All it is guys is an oversized cannister filter- same exact system except on a larger scale.

[american_cichlids_92]

i have also tried to do a bakki shower/ trickle type filter diy of course.
all i used was a 1500 Lt/hr power head 1 meter of silicon hose 2/3 inch in diameter, a 12 liter spring water container, a 2270 gram new life spectrum bucket, a small ice cream container, 3 liters of ceramic rings, 3 small jap mat filter media cut into 2 circles and 1 square ,1 liter of bio balls 4 pot scrubbies, a electric drill and a hand saw.

I didnt take any pictures of how i did it but here is what it looks like
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc288/DR3W3LLIOTT/multis-1.jpg

Here is a layout of how it works and what it looks like in side.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc288/DR3W3LLIOTT/willie.jpg

Hope you can understand it lol

[wow_it_esploded]

Whoever started saying that scrubbies have 370sq.ft/cu.ft needs to realize that these systems use ceramic media which have much greater surface in a much smaller space.

I am really tired, but you can google it. Ceramic rings, especially the eheim brand (ehfisubstrat I believe) are exceptionally high in sur.area. The reason they are submerged is because all the puny pores cannot be accessed with a wet/dry system.

[CHOMPERS]

Let me give you an analogy for ceramic rings or any fine pore media. It is the "Lake" analogy used in Fractals in higher Calculus classes for anyone that has gotten that far. Pretty much when you look at a lake on a map, you can measure out the perimeter and say with certainty that it is however large. But if you get a larger map with more detail of the shore line, you will measure out a much higher number because the shore line isn't really a smooth shape and it actually waves back and forth. If you were to drive to the lake and measure it by walking around it with a pedometer, you will get an even larger measurement because you were able to measure more detail. If you measure around the individual rocks on the waters edge the measurement will approach infinity. This is compounded if you were to also measure around the grains of sand. The question presented in Fractals is "How can an object with a fixed volume or area have a perimeter that is infinite in size?" :D

Anyway, the same thing applies to fine pore media. No one has actually measured them at detail. They just found an average pore size and made an estimate of the surface area. If you were to measure a piece of a fine pore media, you would say that it were, say one square inch but the marketing pro insists that it is something bizzar like ten square inches. Then when they hire a math wizard that uses the fractal principal, he comes up with 20 square inches. In the end, you put it in your sump and six months later it gets a layer of growth across it and it is back to your original one square inch.

Ever wonder why Matrix recommends replacement every six months?

[thor meeki]

So...... scrubies are useful for their extended life & decent amount of surface area while remaining cost efficient. ceramic ring media has more surface area yet only lasts 6 months & costs considerably more. Trade offs.

Is this the message I'm getting or did I misinterpret.:confused:

[cockroach]

I use this method on all three my sumps and have never had problems.

It is the only way I will continue to do it.

[heavyhitter]

im going to do similar type of setup... except i will add air stone on the bottom and blow air up...

The bubbles in the water do not induce oxygen but rather the turbulence they make when they hit the surface causes the gas exchange. Are you going to have room for that gas exchange to take place on the surface?

[CHOMPERS]

So...... scrubies are useful for their extended life & decent amount of surface area while remaining cost efficient. ceramic ring media has more surface area yet only lasts 6 months & costs considerably more. Trade offs.

Is this the message I'm getting or did I misinterpret.:confused:
Ceramic rings have an indefinite life; the benefit of the micro pores is only good for six months. If you have premium mechanical filtration prior to the fine pore media, it will last longer.

[CHOMPERS]

The bubbles in the water do not induce oxygen but rather the turbulence they make when they hit the surface causes the gas exchange. Are you going to have room for that gas exchange to take place on the surface?
The mechanism behind gas exchange is diffusion. Google it and look for the equation that goes along with it. The factors (for solids and liquids) are time, temperature, pressure, surface area, concentrations, and the diffusion gradient. (Notice that "agitation" has no place in the equation.) The bubbles add to the surface area between the air and water, and in fact do increase the rate of diffusion.

[esse]

What Chomper says makes sense. But if that is true, wouldn’t all those over stocked tanks be going through a ammonia spikes after six months?

[Dr Joe]

The bubbles in the water do not induce oxygen but rather the turbulence they make when they hit the surface causes the gas exchange. Are you going to have room for that gas exchange to take place on the surface?


Wrong.

Dr Joe

.

[CHOMPERS]

What Chomper says makes sense. But if that is true, wouldn’t all those over stocked tanks be going through a ammonia spikes after six months?
They don't design them around the pores. You have to remember that the Japanese are much smarter than we are. That is why we have overstocked tanks and they don't. :D

[esse]

They don't design them around the pores. You have to remember that the Japanese are much smarter than we are. That is why we have overstocked tanks and they don't. :D

OK, now hang in there because I really want to understand. Are you saying they design there tank filtration as (one ring = 1 unit) as apposed to (one ring = 10,000 micro units)? :confused:

[CHOMPERS]

For a Japanese stocked tank, having a sump that is 50% of the tank volume would be considered small. Having one of our 30% sumps would just be crazy.

[heavyhitter]

Wrong.

Dr Joe

.

Very insightful.

[heavyhitter]

The mechanism behind gas exchange is diffusion. Google it and look for the equation that goes along with it. The factors (for solids and liquids) are time, temperature, pressure, surface area, concentrations, and the diffusion gradient. (Notice that "agitation" has no place in the equation.) The bubbles add to the surface area between the air and water, and in fact do increase the rate of diffusion.

Although I have been out of high school for many years, and I didnt take any science classes in college. I but I think I recall that diffusion is simply, a process of which molecules from areas of high concentration to low concentration, and when that is met I belive it is called equilibrium.

What I have always belived this to be true and still do is that an airstone oxygenates the water by 1. agitating the surface of the water thus creating a better exchange of disolved oxygen and carbon dioxide. 2. Creating current under the surface and helping CO2 and other gasses rise to the top of the water column.

So are you saying that the bubbles themselves are oxygenating the water? And that the agitation created on the surface is NOT aiding on gas exchange?

Also take a bucket of water and put a couple drops of dye in it. It will eventually diffuse to equalibrium. Now if you stir that bucket "agitation" dye will disperse faster.

I am not saying your argument is right or wrong nor mine right or wrong. I am having a hard time grasping that agitation does not excelerate gas exchange.

[Dr Joe]

Very insightful.

To the point actually.

You've actually proven my point about aeration yourself.

If the air - water surface interchange is where gas exchange takes place, how do you define the air - water surface interchange of a bubble differently? And the quantity of surface area of say 10 seconds worth of bubbles far exceeds the the surface area of the tank. As the bubble breaks the surface tension and erupts, it exhausts the transferred gases (offgassing). And at the same time agitating the water surface allowing more offgassing.

We've never said the surface wasn't a functional part of the gas exchange.

Your dye example is in error unless you use a dye that is buoyant in water.

Dr Joe

.

[stixx]

While i was looking up diy overflows on youtube I ran across this setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBOGXkGls&feature=related
this link is the same concept just as a commercial application http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFQBMDQIdwQ&feature=related
they only other info i could find was this site http://www.multivis.nl/moving-uk.htm. after watching the videos Like always ended up on here and found this thread. the system seems to be similar and some sort of FBF just without sand. Has anyone here have actual expirence with type of set up? Also the name i've found it under is moving bed filter.

[CHOMPERS]

Also take a bucket of water and put a couple drops of dye in it. It will eventually diffuse to equalibrium. Now if you stir that bucket "agitation" dye will disperse faster.

I'm seeing the problem. It is in the definition of 'agitation'. I don't remember which dictionary has the dates of usage in it, but along with the dates is an abreviation 'obs.' It stands for obsolete and indicates that that definition is no longer in use. The definition that is no longer in use is the one related to vigorous stiring. The most commonly used definition would relate to ripples across the surface. There are pockets of varying dialects all over, so I am guessing we were raised using the different definitions.

Anyway, for clarity, lets either use 'circulation', 'stirring', or 'ripples'. Any mechanism that mixes the water is always a good thing. Ripples or wave action's contribution to mixing is very minimal at best. Google 'waves' to find an animation of the actual water movement in waves. The water doesn't go anywhere. There is a circular pattern that is contained at the surface but it is only approximated by the height of the ripples. So at best, for ripples contributing to circulation, it is only minimal.

However, don't confuse circulation as part of diffusion. It is still separate. The gas exchange occurs strictly where the air meets the water.
When using diffusion to describe the gas exchange, it is to mean what occurs at the surface (rather than dissolved gasses diffusing through the water). Circulation is important as you previously mentioned. Any method of circulating the water is helpful in bringing water lower in the tank to the surface. However it should be known that diffusion is a slow process. Having extremely high circulation won't increase the diffusion process over modest circulation.


So are you saying that the bubbles themselves are oxygenating the water?
Dr. Joe's explanation is top notch. :thumbsup:

[dmopar74]

While i was looking up diy overflows on youtube I ran across this setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBOGXkGls&feature=related
this link is the same concept just as a commercial application http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFQBMDQIdwQ&feature=related
they only other info i could find was this site http://www.multivis.nl/moving-uk.htm. after watching the videos Like always ended up on here and found this thread. the system seems to be similar and some sort of FBF just without sand. Has anyone here have actual expirence with type of set up? Also the name i've found it under is moving bed filter.

also know as a bio-reactor to some, heres a thread about a diy one- http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203203&highlight=bio-reactor

ive been thinking bout trying this, but i hear bio balls aren't the right media, despite the fact i got 60+g worth sitting around.:irked:

[CHOMPERS]

ive been thinking bout trying this, but i hear bio balls aren't the right media, despite the fact i got 60+g worth sitting around.:irked:
You could be the zennzzo of Bio-Balls. :D

[dmopar74]

You could be the zennzzo of Bio-Balls. :D
IIII got balls, I got baaaalls, in different area codes.....

[wow_it_esploded]

Ceramic rings have an indefinite life; the benefit of the micro pores is only good for six months. If you have premium mechanical filtration prior to the fine pore media, it will last longer.Now this is where we implement the Kmuda method (from another board). Kmuda, a user on oscarfish.com, is known as the filtration king over there... Just like zennzo is scrubbie master, and JGray12 is practiced in all things FX5.

He has media coming out of his ears, not to mention filtration! His 100 gallon tanks is so overfiltered it could totally pwn shamu's filtration at seaworld.

His media lasts forever because he rotates it. The stuff in the tank is swapped out in certain amounts at certain time periods (I could probably PM him about a solid schedule) and boiled. He boils sponges, blue bonded (keeps it fluffy and makes it last FOREVER), quilt batting, and ceramic rings. After he boils it he ends up with Kmuda Soup, all the old bacteria and goop that had grown all over the media. (add salt and you have dinner for a week! haha jk).

No media is worth anything without proper maintenance, and part of the maintenance of ceramic cylinders is making sure the pores are kept open and exfoliated (i feel like I am writing a makeup commercial!)

[the_deeb]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't really see the benefit of these wet sumps vs wet/dry filtration, unless you are trying to prevent outgassing for a planted tank or are concerned about evaporation or noise from a trickle tower.

the more media .. the more you can stock your tank...

Not quite - the more nitrifying bacteria the more you can stock your tank. I agree that under identical conditions more media = more bacteria, but lots of media won't be useful if the conditions are wrong. For example, if you lower the pH of your system to the point where bacterial metabolism and nitrification is inhibited, you can have loads of media and will still get ammonia spikes.

I think everyone agrees that nitrifying bacteria are aerobic, so to get the most bacteria we want to provide high oxygen levels to promote better bacterial growth. It seems a wet/dry would do a better job of oxygenating the filter evironment than a wet sump and will therefore allow more bacteria for the same amount of filter media. It seems that in the wet sump you are creating less optimal conditions for the bacteria and then having to compensate for that by having more media.

Why not just have a bigger wet/dry (eg. bakki shower style) so you have more media + better conditions = most bacteria?

Now if the goal is to cultivate anaerobic bacteria for denitrification that's another issue, but I still think this isn't the best setup to do that (too much flow).

[Dr Joe]

i always want to do a Japanese Style Filtration... here are some ideas... you can see they fully submerge the bio media...

OK...Now that we've beat this horse dead.

I want to see is the INSTIGATOR'S system!!

Come on Neo...show us what you built! Huh? It's been almost a year!!!!

[timeneverfreezes]

Dont bother DR, He'll just show you his Ultima and complicated plumbing system. lol

[Bud8Fan]

Pic #2 on the first page reminds me of the cattle trucks I see around here.

[Dr Joe]

timeneverfreezes...Never hurts to try.;)

Bud8Fan...
You got some funny lookin' cows in Nebraska :ROFL: