Refugium Setup

[spryandspringy]

I'm almost through with the first cycle on my first saltwater setup. I got a bee in my proverbial bonnet and ordered a small refugium and some macro algae and mangroves on eBay. I've also asked my LFS to order some refugium mud for me. Any advice for setup?

[DeLgAdO]

how big is your tank again?

[spryandspringy]

40g breeder

[frontosa_man]

ya, i too will be setting one up in the next few weeks,and was wandering what the best way is. :grinyes:

[softturtle]

The mangroves should be awsome!

[spryandspringy]

Hello? Is this thing on? Testing... 1... 2... 3...

C'mon! Someone here must have set up a refugium and have some advice for us!

[Fish Finder]

a refugium requires some forum of cleaning and mainence there for i never had one but il ask my friend that should know about it.

[Miles]

They are a great source of filtration!

They grow alot of beneficial organisms, such as decopods that will help keep things well in your tank. I don't know alot about reef tanks, but the local SW expert here says Refugiums are great for alot of reasons. It also helps eat nitrates with the vegetation you can grow in it. I have seen people make a modification on an AQ110 filter, into a mini-refigium. It was awesome.

[spryandspringy]

The nitrate reduction is what I'm really hoping for. The mangroves and macroalgae should help to starve out "bad algae" too. I'm also interested in all of the creepy crawlies you can keep in them. It seems like it would be a good spot to raise small feeder shrimp and such, so I'd always have a supply on hand. One specific question that I haven't been able to get an answer on is lighting: Should the refugium have constant lighting?

[guppy]

I have never run a refugarium but it would seem to be similar to the plant tubs I have used for smaller fw ponds, I used a poly watering troughs that had the filter outflow pumped to it's bottom so that the water flowed up through a thick layer of pottery shards and around potted cattaails or pygmy japanese lotus and a bunch of floating plants (usually water hyacinth but sometimes water lettuce). I would throw in killies, gambusia, or guppies for mosquito control and fairy shrimp and crayfish as well, they bred enough to make a source of occasional fish snacks. This set up was gravity fed through a screened tray back into the pond over a splash tray. It seems that continuos lighting would cause an algae bloom.

[bluedempsey]

Essentially, a refugium is nothing more than a refuge from predation. Sessile inverts and other delicate species need a place to call their own and the advent of the refugium was just the ticket! Isolated, but connected to the main display tank the refugium allows for common water filtration while at the same time keeping more aggressive fish from impacting it.

I have seen a few ideas that allow light to be redirected over the refugiums but they were stop-gap measures. Better to have a proprietary lighting system designed strictly for the refugium. A 6500K and a mono-phosphor 7100K blue provide nice lighting for a tank this size. I recommend Energy Savers Unlimited (ESU) Coralife bulbs, or similar OSRAM lighting. These are ideal units that feature twin OSRAM fluorescent bulbs in a neat aluminum reflector. By shallowing the water column, via the sand bed, these OSRAMS will give the intensity needed for your refugium inhabitants. Being just 9 watts each, they radiate at a 75 watt, incandescent level! That's equal to 150 watts of incandescent light on a 10 gallon tank! Plenty of beneficial illumination. I used eggcrate cut to the inside dimensions of the tank frame and simply placed the reflector on this. Instant light hood! The reflector keeps stray light out of your eyes and keeps the rest of the room comfortable.

In conclusion, all we are striving for here is to provide a safe and quiet haven for our animals to flourish. I allowed caulerpas to grow, and even cultured some halimeda algaes as well! :thumbsup:

[fenderwai]

hello

[bluedempsey]

hello
hello?
how are u?

[spryandspringy]

Methinks "fenderwai" was trying to reach over five posts. :naughty:

[spryandspringy]

So, if I'm planning on putting refugium mud, mangroves, and some macroalgae in there, what else should I add? Feeder shrimp? Sand sifting inverts? Snails? Amphipods and copepods? (What are those anyway?)

[managuense-fury]

Essentially, a refugium is nothing more than a refuge from predation. Sessile inverts and other delicate species need a place to call their own and the advent of the refugium was just the ticket! Isolated, but connected to the main display tank the refugium allows for common water filtration while at the same time keeping more aggressive fish from impacting it.

I have seen a few ideas that allow light to be redirected over the refugiums but they were stop-gap measures. Better to have a proprietary lighting system designed strictly for the refugium. A 6500K and a mono-phosphor 7100K blue provide nice lighting for a tank this size. I recommend Energy Savers Unlimited (ESU) Coralife bulbs, or similar OSRAM lighting. These are ideal units that feature twin OSRAM fluorescent bulbs in a neat aluminum reflector. By shallowing the water column, via the sand bed, these OSRAMS will give the intensity needed for your refugium inhabitants. Being just 9 watts each, they radiate at a 75 watt, incandescent level! That's equal to 150 watts of incandescent light on a 10 gallon tank! Plenty of beneficial illumination. I used eggcrate cut to the inside dimensions of the tank frame and simply placed the reflector on this. Instant light hood! The reflector keeps stray light out of your eyes and keeps the rest of the room comfortable.

In conclusion, all we are striving for here is to provide a safe and quiet haven for our animals to flourish. I allowed caulerpas to grow, and even cultured some halimeda algaes as well! :thumbsup:
Did you just read a book or something. :headbang2

[bluedempsey]

^
yes exactly. my mind is like a sponge... can't get enough knowledge

[managuense-fury]

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa041400.htm
This website has some pretty good info on refugiums :thumbsup:

[mkpeters6]

So, if I'm planning on putting refugium mud, mangroves, and some macroalgae in there, what else should I add? Feeder shrimp? Sand sifting inverts? Snails? Amphipods and copepods? (What are those anyway?)

when you get the macroalgae, mud, etc. most of the little critters will come aboard on that stuff -- i guess the mud is supposed to be straight from the ocean and is filled with all kinds of good stuff - make sure you build a deep sand bed so the critters have a good place to burrow and feed


as for lighting i leave mine on 24hours a day - i got one of those coralife miniaqualights, there great -- if you dont leave the lights on constantly i guess certain species of macroalgae will begin to spawn and it becomes uncontrollable

[frontosa_man]

i read that running the refugim light at night will help stablize pH and O2 levals in the tank. anyone else hear about this?

[mkpeters6]

i read that running the refugim light at night will help stablize pH and O2 levals in the tank. anyone else hear about this?

yea, i heard that too, my ph went down a little when i first set mine up, but nothing to severe, it has since stabilzed

[spryandspringy]

i read that running the refugim light at night will help stablize pH and O2 levals in the tank. anyone else hear about this?

Wow!

:eek: :WHOA: :clap :woot: :thumbsup:

That would rock if that were the case. Can anyone second that?

Today I got a cute little clip on light, especially for aquarium plants. It has a bendable neck, so I should be able to point it so most of the light goes into the refugium, and not into the main tank when the moonlight is on at night.

[spryandspringy]

yea, i heard that too, my ph went down a little when i first set mine up, but nothing to severe, it has since stabilzed


WOOT!

:woot:

[spryandspringy]

mkpeters6, since you have first-hand experience, can you give me some tips on setup? Maybe help me avoid some mistakes?

[mkpeters6]

what kind of setup are you using for the refugium, are you making it yourself or buying a pre-made one?

i ended up buying a pre-made one b/c i got a great deal on it an it fit nicely under my stand (it has three compartments the first is where the water comes in from the overflow then it spills into the second chamber which is my refuge area and then that spills into the final compartment where the return pump is) - plus i dont have to worry about leaks or anything like that

all i did was add a deep sand bed of agrinite reef sand (or live sand works good) then i bought some macroalgae from a lfs (guy that works there had a big bag that he brought from his home tank that was filled with 4-5 types of algae) thats really it i just let the system run and take care of its self -- i was gonna add the miracle mud but i never got around to it but i was told its great for establishing a refuge

i really like the pre-made sump/fuge that i bought it works really great and is nice and compact, i have friends that have built there own and they work fine but i really didnt have the room for multiple sumps, etc.

[spryandspringy]

The one I'm setting up is the hang-on type that hooks up to a small pump of powerhead in the tank. I've got the mud coming and the macroalgae and mangrove I ordered are already here (I've got them in good temporary spots in the aquarium (algae in a small, plexiglass breeder box and the mangrove propped up so they're popping up out of the top of the tank.) The device itself should be here early next week. I can't wait! :drool:

[mkpeters6]

ive never seen one of those in action but they have always looked pretty interesting - it sounds like a pretty good setup and should work good for the small setup that you have, it'll look really cool when the mangroves start to grow out of the top like a mini-forest on the back of your tank
ill be interested in knowing how the hang-on works i might get one down the road if i set up a mini-reef again

[frontosa_man]

how many gallon refugium would be good for 125 gal reef and fish tank?

[spryandspringy]

I got the refugium almost totally set up last night. It came completely unassembled, much to my dismay, so I've spent the last couple of days cementing together plexiglass, checking for leaks, and cementing again.

I don't know what size it is, but is measures about 18"x3"x3", and my tank's only a 40g breeder.

I got everything hooked up to the pump last night. I'm still awaiting the arrival of the mud, but I've got two types of macroalgae and a mangrove in there. I HAD a bunch of feeder shrimp in there, too, but thanks to the way it drains back into the tank most of them have made a great escape. :swear:


I'm excited to watch my water parameters and see what the effect is. :D

[mkpeters6]

how many gallon refugium would be good for 125 gal reef and fish tank?

if you used like a standard 20 long or even a 30 gal (36in) that would work great, you could easily use a 10 gal tank for a refuge especially if you are using it as supplemental filtration (some reef systems rely completely on the ecosystem method of filtration w/ no mechanical filtration or skimmers)

im not sure on exact ratio of refugium size to tank size, but obviously the larger the regufium the more macroalgae, mud, etc to help with filtration
spryandspringy - glad you got your system up and running, they really are fun to watch the stuff grow in it -- i started with a handful of diff types of macroalgae and it litterally tripled in size and mass in the first few weeks -- i have to cut it back occassionally so it wont grow out of the tank -- makes a great supplemental food for my fish and corals though!

[spryandspringy]

Everything's going swimmingly (pun intended) with the refugium. The mangroves are looking good, and the algae seems good, too. (It's hard to tell whether it's grown at all yet.) The guy at the LFS "accidentally" gave me some microstars along with some algae for my refugium, and they've promptly disappeared for the most part. Every now and then I see one.

The pH dipped down at first, but seems fine now. I'm doing a bigger-than-usual partial water change today and I'm looking forward to seeing the refugium's true effect in keeping everything stable.

[thebigfish]

The mangroves are very slow growing trees and thus are far less effective than macro algaes. Look into Caulerpa Sp. Specially Caulerpa Taxifolia or Mexicana. They are both fast growing and great nitrate reducers. They do well in sandy substrates since they grow runners under the sand becoming a huge mat. If your sand bed is 3" to 4" deep (depending on the size of the particles- shallower as particles get smaller) you can also develop the anaerobic bacteria that consumes nitrates :). A live sand starter kit (try www.ipsf.com) will provide the copepods, amphipods, brittle stars, worms and other critters which keep the sand bed stirred slowly to allow the bacteria to work. Use a cleaning crew of hermits and snails to keep nuissance algae from smothering the macro algae. You could keep the light on 24 hours with these two species as long as you provide a constant concentration of iron in the water, but the algae will grow faster if you allow a night period of around 4-5 hours for cellular respiration and regeneration. Good luck !

[frontosa_man]

after reading and posting here i made the sump. here it is.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/100_1193.JPG (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/100_1193.JPG)

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/100_1192.JPG (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/100_1192.JPG)

[guppy]

Copepods and amphipods are small crustaceans

[skinnychinaman]

Frontosa man - If I were you, I would loose those bio-balls in your sump.. it really defeats the purpose of having a refugium.. a refugium is used for nutrient export and reduce nitrate, but bio-balls are a nitrate factory.

[frontosa_man]

Frontosa man - If I were you, I would loose those bio-balls in your sump.. it really defeats the purpose of having a refugium.. a refugium is used for nutrient export and reduce nitrate, but bio-balls are a nitrate factory.


i know this. but im using them to help seed my newly set up tank( i took half of tem from my other tank). after the cycle is over it will be replaced with live rock. my fuge is fed by a pump that is at 70 gph.the bottom half is sump and the top is fuge.

[mkpeters6]

nice setup front-man, i like hoe you incorporated the refuge in the upper area of the tank

here is a pic of mine...

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/refugium.jpg (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=2/medium/refugium.jpg)

the calurpa grows like crazey - it has more then quadrupled in mass and i have to cut it back - there is also a mix of a few other species of macroalgae

[skinnychinaman]

here was my little lab.. enjoy

[mkpeters6]

very nice tank, some sweet sps corals - do you not have it anymore?

[skinnychinaman]

I had to sell that tank setup due to a move.. it was in my one bedroom apartment.. but now i have a house and a storefront.. so all my stuff are in the store now..lol

[Ornatapinnis]

I have many years experiance with these type of setups, heres some of what I have learned.

First lets define refugium because I thnk it is something differant to many people. My defination isthat it's a separate area (tank) that shares the common water on the main display system. It's purpose is to supply the main system with naturally occouring micro & macro organisims that the main system uses up thru predation. Basically it feeds the main system live food to the fish and corals and other filter feeders.Because of this, what I believe to be a refugium must gravity feed the display tank other wise the benificial living organisims will mostly die because they have been pumped thru a water pump, kind of like going thru a blender. I include live sand, macro algaes, live rock rubble and lighting in the 55 to 65K range. THis lighting seems to support the algaes better than deep water "reef" type lighting.

As per nutrient removal, the refugium type of systems do ok but that is not what thier primary function it. THe systems I do include a large sump that has a "marsh" like area in it for additional macro algaes and mangroves. THis type of set up really dose a great job at using up nutrients in the water. I again use full spectrum lighting, typically VHO or metal halide. I run the lighting system about oppisite of the main display tanks lighting so there is allwayt photosyenthsis going on. THis helps with ph fluctations from exsessive co2 when plants and algaes respire after the lights go off.

In my photo gallery there is a picture of a mangrove mud sump I put on one of my systems at the shop. It is a 125 (72x18" foot print) that has a chamber for the water inlet and for bio media if I need it, the center section has glass partitions siliconed in place to retain the live sand and mud in place and then a small chamber at the other end for my protein skimmer and water pump pick up. I have abour 30 mangroves in it right now but will decrease thier numbers as they grow. I also have marine sponges, feather dusters, a few species of calerpa, shaving brush, hemalida (catus) algae and corraline of course. My lighting system is a Ice Cap model 660 VHO ballast with 4 110 watt each flourscent light bulbs. I am using 3 URI aquasun S lamps and one 50/50 (URI is Ultra Violet Resorce) I, as many people in this hobby, have fourn URI to be the best flourscent lamp available. I am unaware of a better lamp.

These little HOB so called "refugiums" are interesting to play with but are simply to small to have any signifigant benifit to the aquarium. My sumps are typically the same size as the the aquarium or a least close to it. My refugiums are typically half the size of the dislay tank and are set up to be a surge tank as well. THis helps with random current in the main aquarium but also helps with removal of shrimp larvae or mysis (copapods) I have even keep sail fin mollies in my refugiums, one male and several females prodive lots of fry to feed to the display tank.

I'm sure that there is to be learned about this type of filtration but what I have been doing so far is much better than the old biological filtration method. Better water quality long term and pretty cool to play with too.

Joel

[frontosa_man]

great info Ornatapinnis. it was full of ideas for my next sump. :thumbsup: