convicts and texans are meant to be tough?

[rumblesushi]

I bought a convict and texas cichlid especially to go with my snakehead and jardini respectively, as they are meant to be tough and aggressive.

My convict would get chased around by the channa until it just hid behind the filter all the time, with half it's scales missing. Yesterday it came out from behind the filter to eat a pellet and my snakehead grabbed it by the face, shook it and spun around and ripped half it's face off. The convict came to a sticky end and never once tried to fight the snakehead.

My texas is in with the jardini and it just hides under a rock all the time. When it comes out the aro just chases it around and tries to bite it.

Yet my little skinny 3 inch peacock bass gets completely left alone by the aro.

Maybe they are tough compared to other cichlids but they can't compete with proper predators.

[Mourinho18]

Maybe they are tough compared to other cichlids but they can't compete with proper predators.


i think most people would tell you that anyway. :confused:

[Vitaliy]

It is your fault and you are wrong. You bought into the hype and did not bother doing the research.

The only reason people say Convicts are the meanest fish pound for pound is because for the small size they are very aggressive. You can not put a fish that will max out at 5-6” (Convict male) and stick it with a male Red Devil that is over 14” and say they are both aggressive thus should get along. Cichlids are aggressive for the family (cichlid family), but that does not mean they will kill all the fish out there. Snakehead would swallow just about any Cichlid out there, so would just about every Catfish out there…

Research.

[Mourinho18]

^^^^^^^^^, couldn't have said it better myself

[rumblesushi]

The texas was probably heavier than my snakehead when he was chasing it around and biting it.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, but I've heard people say they've seen convicts and texans beat up much larger fish, and are literally scared of nothing and won't back down.

I knew they would end up being lunch when they were outgrown by the channa and aro, but I thought they would be suitable tankmates while my channa was still tiny.

They wanted none of the channa, never attempted to fight back.

That's my point, there was not even a size difference at first, so I figured these cichlids would be able to defend themselves.

I'm not stupid, I didn't think a 4 inch cichlid would stand a chance against a fully grown snakehead, I wasn't buying into any hype.

I simply heard they are brave fish that like to fight and don't back down from bigger fish.

It's not even my fault as you say, I knew enough about each fish to know that sooner or later the cichlids would become snacks, but I thought until that day they would defend themselves. I did my research and read that both of these fish are meant to be highly aggressive and tough.

Having previously owned a giant snakehead that grew to about 2.5 foot I know enough about them too.

[Miles]

I have read studies about the evolutionary behavior of fish, mainly cichlids in general. They have evolved to identify other species of fish, and you would be surprised on what these fishes instinct tells them. I remember in a few articles, how some fish, especially cichlids, will have a memory sensor. It will help them identify a fish that they could possibly be dominate over, or has won a previous battle in the past. Cichlids will remembe a specific species, and remember how they dominated them or their evolutionary instinct lets them know that they are the dominate species. I do believe fish will 'size up' other fish, and remember the battles they have won. I don't know how concrete this is, but it could be a possibility of why things 'went wrong' in that scenario.

Granted reserach would have/could have prevented this, but an inexpensive cichlid is a great test for a tankmate, rather than a prized fish. Here is a few things to consider;

How often have S.A. Cichlids come into contact with Channa or the more aggressive Jardini arowana, in say the last 1000 years? None, Exactly.. They have no 'instinct' on how to behave around them. They were likely 'unsure' of how to approach a fish they have never seen, which then led to the ruthless behavior of the channa, leaving the cichlid at the mercy of its nasty bite. After only a single encounter, would the cichlid know he is outmatched and never attempt to 'stand-up' to the counterpart ever again, hence the running until death scenario.

Channa and Jardini are more than likely one of the higher predators on the food chain, in their native areas. Pull them out of their native area, and place them with fish they have never seen, and they will assume the 'dominant' roll because that is what they would do in the wild. Most fish in the wild would have a chance to escape from these 'super-predators', but not in a tank.

The aro however, has likely encounter some sort of 'peacock bass' type fish, or open water large mouthed predator in the wild. It has a symbiotic relationship that has formed over years of evolution and instinct. It is likely they don't mess with it, because they lived in harmony in the wild. Also keep in mind these fish are intelligent, and they can identify another intelligent fish such as a cichlid. Keeping a number of 'intelligent' fish togethor in a same tank, would be a threat to the 'super-predator' and a threat to his food source, so it is his instinct to destroy any competition. In the wild, he would just remove the competition from the area, but not in an isolated space.

I don't think it's fair to attack this person for saying it's his fault. It is true that a Convict or Texas are some of the meanest cichlids around for their size, but mainly towards other cichlids. Cichlids are intelligent and have a great sense to identify other cichlids and territory, and they also understand boundaries. Aros and Channas likely do not understand boundaries, due to their natural behavior in the wild. The instinct of the cichlid is to stay, fight, and defend, while the instinct of the Channa/Aro would be to patrol, destroy, and dominate..

I just thought I would throw that in..

Miles

[lemcc]

i really dont understand this type of fish keeping :screwy:

[Miles]

A prime example of evolutionary memory sensorage is this;

Lake Victoria, enter the 'Nile Perch'.. a non-native fish.

A massive fish that grows up to nearly 6 feet.. While previously the largest fish ever seen by these african cichlids in the lake would be the emperor cichlid. They have evolved to understand the food chain, and understand how to react after the cichlid will identify the predator that is fast approaching. Prior, the emperor cichlid was the dominate predator, and the largest of the cichlid.. However, it was an open water swimmer and it fit it's 'niche' within the lake, and likely left many of the small fish alone.

The nile perch, an extremely large, ruthless predator that will eat anything and everything it could possibly find. Imagine the reaction of some of the small cichlids as a large 6 foot shadow looms over head, them not ever seeing such a thing. Their instinct tells them nothing, and naturally due to the curiousity of cichlids, they would like to investigate. Not being able to identify the large 6ft shadow as a predator, they leave themselves very vulnerable for attack.. The predator not caring about anything, would obviously use the curiosity weakness in the smaller cichlids and quickly 'inhale' entire broods or multiple cichlids at once. Many cichlids will dig pits in the sand, and defend them in groups, but when a fish is large enough to swallow the entire group, and the entire group dosn't have an 'instinct' an how to flee, defend, or re-act to such an inhabitant that dosn't belong in their lake, they lose the battle.

This scenario is a big part of why the african rift lakes are becoming depleted daily, but it is also a great example of how a cichlids instinctive memory sensor, will tell them how, or how not to, re-act to such an inhabitant.

[rumblesushi]

Miles - thanks very much for the replies, they were very insightful and certainly made sense.

Now you are also right that to some extent they were tests as tankmates. I didn't necessarily want them to get killed, I knew that was a possibility, but I wanted to see how compatible the channa and jardini were with other fish. It's that simple. I haven't had them long and wanted to know how they would react to different tankmates.

Contrary to what the other morons suggested - I did my research and thought convicts and texans would be a good test for my channa and jardini. Not something that would get killed right away, and not something that would risk doing any damage to my 2 coolest fish.

And to some extent I was right. They just acted more scared than I thought they would. They were both brave against much larger goldfish, but wanted nothing to do with the channa or aro, even when the channa was tiny.

For the record the texas is still alive, I put him in with my oscars and wolf, and he seems fine now, he's not scared and he's swimming around.

Oh and also for the record - I moved my wolf and oscars into a bigger tank yesterday, from a divided tank with my channa. Before I moved the last oscar I wanted to put my little channa to the test against a big, strong, brave fish like an oscar.

The channa is 6 inches and about as thick as a finger, and well the 6 inch oscar is obviously much bigger and probably weighs about 4x as much. As soon as I moved the divider the channa went RIGHT up to the oscar, nose to nose, and when the oscar didn't swim off scared the channa just bit it. The channa darted around and struck the oscar a couple more times. The oscar tried to fight back, tried to bite the snakehead a couple of times, and wasn't that scared, but it was outmatched even against a fish that in terms of weight must have been 1/4 of it's size.

I didn't want either fish to get hurt, I just wanted to know how much guts my channa has.

I moved the oscar into the big tank, and noticed he has 2 little bite marks/scrapes around his belly.

So now I know, my channa is a certified badass. A fish will have to be 10 times bigger than him to get the better of him.

Oh and one more thing - I've actually found oscars to be MUCH braver than convicts and texans, hands down. They regularly start trouble with my wolf, and he is 8 inches and well - a wolf fish. He obviously fights back and shreds their fins or marks their side, but they are not scared of him. They are courageous fish even though they are obviously outmatched against a pure predator like the wolf.

And my whole point was that despite the convict and the texas being outmatched, they didn't show that courage, yet my oscars do, they are very brave fish even against a larger pure predator.

[Mourinho18]

look ladies and gentelman, theres absolutely no reason to get so technical here. He placed these cichlids with fish that we all agree would vaporize them. Simple as that. Choose tankmates more carefully is the only bit of advice you or anybody else needs. :grinyes:

[rumblesushi]

benfica - would you think a pretty fat 8 inch hoplias would vapourize 2 6 inch oscars?

They have been living fine together for ages. The occasional scuffle and shredded fin but that's it.

I wanted to choose a couple of what I thought would be similar tankmates to oscars. Some tough aggressive cichlids that could defend themselves but not harm the fish I love.

What tankmates do you suggest then? An electric eel? A rhom? Jesus.

I just chose a couple of allegedly tough fish to see how compatible my new fish are. I wanted to know the likelyhood of keeping these fish with anything, and in that sense it was mission successful.

I know that my channa will try and kill ANYTHING in the tank. Even a larger oscar. And my jardini picks and chooses. He's living happily with a tiny peacock bass and a catfish, yet he hated the texas and bullied it constantly.

My point was simply that those fish are not that tough and brave. Oscars are tougher and braver than convicts and cichlids. Texans and cons will flare up at a goldfish sure, but if they are outmatched they run and hide.

my oscars are outmatched against against a wolf which is much faster, much stronger, has a much bigger mouth and bigger teeth and is a born killer. Despite that their bravery has ensured their survival with the wolf, because they don't back down and they don't hide.

Oscars are the bravest cichlids I've seen.

[Apocalypse]

Very well said.

Most of the cichlids are only pugnacious when they are in breeding mode. A snakehead will make a meal out of just about anything.

[Mourinho18]

hah, dude. fine. just don't ***** about it when all your lovely little cichlids get eaten by a larger tankmate :)

[Miles]

Keep in mind, each individual fish will have a different personality and level of aggression.

We are monster fish keepers, and we are the small group of fishkeepers that stand to push the limits of fish keeping. You will never know until you try, right?

[CentralMayhem]

rock on miles. i like people who actually post useful information. you seem to have good answers for most peoples questions. keep up the good work. we appreciate it.

[Mourinho18]

yeah, good posting miles, maybe i was a bit harsh. Never know until you push the envelope I guess. I just wouldn't personally do it. To each his own.

[rumblesushi]

hah, dude. fine. just don't ***** about it when all your lovely little cichlids get eaten by a larger tankmate :)

What are you talking about you queer? I didn't ***** or moan, I basically expressed surprise that the convict and texas were dominated so easily and completely submissive. Why don't you construct a worthwhile argument like Miles did instead of posting dismissive one line replies?

Who said they were my lovely little cichlids? I bought them to test my predators, it's that simple. I knew they would come to a sticky end sooner or later.

What's the difference between doing that and buying feeder fish?

I'm basically just surprised that's all, I thought they would be more resilient and brave, I've heard people claiming convicts stand up to much bigger fish, texans too.

I'm stating that in my experience that's not true.

Whereas with my experience with oscars, that is true. Even if an oscar is overmatched against something that's born to kill - they are brave and stand up for themselves.

You didn't get the point of my original post at all did you? I'm not upset, I'm surprised.

[rumblesushi]

Keep in mind, each individual fish will have a different personality and level of aggression.

We are monster fish keepers, and we are the small group of fishkeepers that stand to push the limits of fish keeping. You will never know until you try, right?

Exactly, that's the attitude I like. I was surprised when I first joined and read Rocky's dragon vs snake post, risking his precious Asian aro. That's balls on the line, and this is monster fish keepers afterall.

Ben don't cry because a couple of cichlids got whupped.

[Mourinho18]

What are you talking about you queer? I didn't ***** or moan, I basically expressed surprise that the convict and texas were dominated so easily and completely submissive. Why don't you construct a worthwhile argument like Miles did instead of posting dismissive one line replies?

Who said they were my lovely little cichlids? I bought them to test my predators, it's that simple. I knew they would come to a sticky end sooner or later.

What's the difference between doing that and buying feeder fish?

I'm basically just surprised that's all, I thought they would be more resilient and brave, I've heard people claiming convicts stand up to much bigger fish, texans too.

I'm stating that in my experience that's not true.

Whereas with my experience with oscars, that is true. Even if an oscar is overmatched against something that's born to kill - they are brave and stand up for themselves.

You didn't get the point of my original post at all did you? I'm not upset, I'm surprised.


hah, dude. are you serious. Didn't you read my post which just happens to be just above where I said i was being a little harsh. Don't come out here like a little tough guy making stupid comments. Very clever calling me queer. SHows a certain level of maturity . Why would you be surprised that your convict was being taken out by a natural born predator. No use in continuing this convo. You've officially gone on my ignore list because of your stupid and unnecessary comments.

[rumblesushi]

:D

[rumblesushi]

You weren't being harsh benji, you were being a moron and you completely failed to grasp the point of my original post. That shows your limited intelligence.

[octofasciatum1]

this thread died a while ago...