German Blue Ram Breeding "Journal" [Archive]

Dread

08-23-2007, 1:50 PM

Alright then, even one person is enough! =P So, let's get it started yet.

I'm using a 10g tank, moderately planted (soon heavily planted). It's got a couple potential spawning sites, assuming these Blues will spawn on a flat surface like a rock, as most others seem to. I'm keeping the tank at a steady 81° F, and feeding 4 times daily, in small amounts. Live brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, frozen Daphnia, and Frozen Bloodworms. I also feed Hikari Gold "Baby Pellet" size on occasion. I added the female yesterday, and the only other tank mates are 4 Glass Shrimp to pick up what isn't eaten (and maybe serve as live food later on!), as it's hard for me to vaccuum substrate - it is seachem's "Flourite" and is very very dusty. The pH is on the acidic side, about 5.5 to 6. The water is very soft, using a mix of 60% RO and 40% tap (untreated, btw. No dechlor, as my area has virtually NO chloramines or chlorine, any in the water is gassed out in 15 minutes) Picture time!

The female:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/843/picture6663017am7.jpg

The Male:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1520/picture6662015ru9.jpg

It looks like they sort've paried up. As soon as the females bag was floating in the water, the male began to puff up and wriggle in front of her. The second she was let out of the bag, she began to check out the male. She was eating within 10 minutes, and never showed any signs of stress. They rarely leave each other's sides. I'm fairly sure it is pairing, but it could be that the tank is too small to really notice when they're apart.

Mystix212

08-24-2007, 2:36 AM

I'd raise the temp to 84-86. 81 sounds just a smidge too cool. Keep us posted.

Dread

08-24-2007, 4:17 AM

I'd raise the temp to 84-86. 81 sounds just a smidge too cool. Keep us posted.

Yeah, I agree. Infact, I rasied the temp to 84.5 last night.

rob page

08-24-2007, 6:49 PM

hey can you take a full tank shot i want an idea for when i breed! and how can you tell there sex?

Mystix212

08-24-2007, 8:06 PM

Male Left, Female Right.
Males have 2 long rays at the start of thier dorsal fin. Females have a pink stomach.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3175/blueramsvf1.jpg

rob page

08-24-2007, 8:40 PM

thanks!!

Dread

08-25-2007, 4:06 AM

hey can you take a full tank shot i want an idea for when i breed! and how can you tell there sex?

Yep, like Mystix said. Also, females have a slightly pink belly, the puncuate blue scales in the black spot, the rounder shape, and the more rounded anal and dorsal fins which do not extend at all past the caudal peduncle.

Males have more pointed fins which extend a bit past the caudal peduncle, and no blue speckles inside their lateral blotch.

I'll get a full tank shot, soon. But keep in mind it's not pretty! :D

Dread

08-25-2007, 9:47 AM

So.. something kind of odd this morning. I flipped on my light, and dosed my fertilizers for my plants like I usually do (EI Method). In the front right corner and there's a pit dug. I've always heard Blue Rams are Monogamous substrate spawners, usually using a flat service like a slate rock, similiar to Discus or Angelfish. But it seems they're digging a pit. The male is picking up peices of Flourite and moving them. So maybe I can see how alot of people believe conflicting things about Blue Rams. I've heard Monogamous Substrate Spawners (which is what I believe), I've also heard they're Polygamous harem breeders, and numerous other things. I snapped some pictures of the pit, but they're not too great. I hope you can make out the depression, and notice the size difference between the two!
Pit:
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5994/pit003lu1.jpg

Size difference. Last night, before I noticed a pit. I don't think it's in this picture, which leads me to believe the male dug it at night when the lights went off.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8406/pit002bf4.jpg

The female's breeding tube is protruding quite a bit, and her stomache has become much more rose-colored, and much more noticeable. I'm unsure if this is due to the frequent small feedings, or a sign of her eagerness to breed. I've not seen any courtship behaviour which leads me to think the former.

Dread

08-25-2007, 2:34 PM

Well.. it appears the FEMALE was the one digging, and the male is just kinda moving stuff.. He's been moving random peices of flourite all over the tank. Not in any order. He'll move one peice from the left to the right, from the front to the back.. corner to corner.. I think I have an OCD Blue Ram.

The female is digging and moving things, but she's trying to form a pit. It's kinda cute seeing her try to wriggle in it like a fish would sand to make it move, only to see nothing happen. She has to shovel it with her mouth one peice at a time because she's so tiny. =P her breeding tube is EXTREMELY poked out now, so I'm starting to wonder if maybe these guys are easier than Convicts for me?

Dread

08-25-2007, 2:46 PM

Sorry about the three posts in a row, but this is what I mean by "extremely" poking out..
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9213/tube002jc1.jpg

cichlid savage

08-25-2007, 4:27 PM

I dont want to breed rams but this is interesting reading and nice pics of the fish.

Dread

08-25-2007, 7:17 PM

Wow! As expected, eggs have been laid. I documented the entire process, as I just happened to be listening to music and watching my fish at the time. I have to say, this was one of the most fascinating things I've ever watched. I could easily see the female deposit eggs and then the male flutter over them to fertilize them, then the female would swoop in again to drop more eggs, and the male would mimick her path in totality to get as many eggs as possible. It seems Blue Rams spawn more readily than Convicts for me! Wild caught, none the less.. I'm quite impressed with myself. =P I'm not expecting these to live, as Rams are notorious for eating their first batch, but after the first spawn, it's generally true that the pair will lay eggs like clockwork afterwards, each time gaining experience. However, if these do survive, I will be surprised, as well as excited and happy. :) So, here's some pictures from the spawning process, and VIDEOS as well at the bottom!

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8260/spawning021sy0.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3245/spawning019fy1.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/579/spawning018dr6.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4935/spawning017dw0.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6239/spawning010vv9.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4172/spawning011lx0.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4240/spawning012re8.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/811/spawning014kd6.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/705/spawning006im0.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4811/spawning016cs5.jpg

Female Dropping Eggs Video (http://www.sendspace.com/file/ddwu40)
More Egg Dropping, Male Coming to Fertilize Video (http://www.sendspace.com/file/2xoegs)
Male Fertilizing the Eggs Video (http://www.sendspace.com/file/abwe8v)

They're hosted on Sendspace, so you have to look at the bottom of the page for the file download link. :) The eggs are extremely hard to get a picture of, so I'll do my best soon, and I'll definately post pictures if there's wrigglers, or let you know what happens next! :)

Mystix212

08-25-2007, 8:41 PM

Excellent colours on the male. Its quite rare to actually watch them up close without them being disrupted. This is a really great thread Dread.

rob page

08-25-2007, 9:53 PM

amazing! so there easier than cons?

wizzin

08-26-2007, 5:44 AM

nice write up. Mine did the same thing actually. Dug a pit to lay, vs lay on a flat surface. Mine also laid eggs within a week of having them in a tank. Yes, my convicts took longer than the rams. Sadly, the male ate the eggs, and soon after showed signs of parisites and died. Whatever he had, he apparently passed on to the female, and she died 5 days later.

I'm waiting until I get a chance to visit my local breeder to buy more rams. I've just had bad luck with LFS rams.

keep up the journal! I want to see how you handle the wrigglers! Are you going to seperate the eggs from parents and try to artificially raise the fry? Or are you going to see how the parents do?

Dread

08-26-2007, 5:44 AM

I highly doubt they're easier than Cons. I think I just got lucky, provided the exact things they needed to spawn, and got good stock. And they spawned. Generally, I hear people think Blue Rams are more difficult than Cons (much more), and I agree. I just hit a lucky streak and did too much research for my own good. =P This is the first Wild Caught pair I've spawned.

Now, for the bad news. I woke up this morning, and there's only a couple eggs left. I expected them to eat their first batch, so this is kind of part of the plan for me. =P I'm still very happy to know it's been done, I have the tools to do it, and they're willing. So, like most fish, they should spawn like clockwork now, gaining experience each time.

Either that, or the 10 or 20 eggs left hatch. ^^

And Wizzin, this is my plan: The first batch I'll let whatever happens happen. Second batch, I plan to do the same. Third batch, probably the same If I get bad results this way (ie, parents eat eggs, wrigglers, whatever) I'll seperate them from the eggs, because obviously the parents haven't learned. Then, I'll try to hatch them on my own, or better yet, remove wrigglers from the breeding tank, and raise those once they've hatched. The latter is what I'm more comfortable doing.

smallguy

08-26-2007, 9:10 AM

Dread

08-27-2007, 7:11 AM

glad to hear it went well for you. i picked up 3 gbr and i believe i got 3 females. kind of sucks but when i introduce a male theres gotta be a decent shot at a pair. it was entertaining watching the females claim there territory they actualy were going at it pretty well for the first two days. they would each face sideways then face each other, each would take turns swimming towards the other then backing up and every so often they would lock lips and push each other around. very neat to watch

Yeah, it's really fun to watch. I had a male/female pair, but sadly the female died the first 2 days in a really bad filter accident. So the male was mate-less for a while. When I got him this female, I put the bag in the water to equalize the tempetures, and he was already flaunting! Fits held tight, with his head a 45 degree angle, wiggling around :ROFL: . I was like "Wow, hold on there Skippy, she isn't even out of the bag yet!". When she did get out, she wasn't stressed at all, was eating within 5 minutes, and never lost abit of her color. I think by that time she was already paired :grinno: . Slight pH change, big water change with rain water, and a good dose of live brine shrimp and bloodworms.. that's all it took for them to get down to business!

As for the update; They aren't guarding anything anymore. Last night, they were fighting off 2 Glass Shrimp.. which I guess they thought posed a threat (even though the shrimp repeated walked over the eggs when there was many, and didn't even try to eat them). I thought there were more eggs left, but there was just ONE egg :screwy: . I guess that shows how badly fish want to spread their seed. They'll guard down to the very last egg. But now, that egg got eaten by the female. However, I did notice them picking clean a couple of leafs off my Amazon Sword plants. So, I'm thinking in a week or so, after a steady feeding of live and frozen foods, that if I do another water change with rain water/RO water, they'll spawn again.

donaldastwood

08-27-2007, 3:04 PM

That is totally amazing that they paired up so quickly... I think that i am doing something wrong. Admittedly I do not use RO water, and I am noticing that this is something that i need to do to get my guys and gals to breed.
But What an amazing thread... Great work and great research..

Dread

08-27-2007, 3:23 PM

Thanks for the kind words, donald! It is amazing that they paried off so quickly. I wasn't even expecting it, even granted the (if I do say so myself!) excellent husbandry.

And today, I was talking to some people at my favourite LFS about breeding Blue rams. Alot of them said there's spawning on a flat surface, and out of the ones whose pairs spawned directly on the substrate 5/7 of them were using Flourite as a substrate. I think it may have something to do with camoflauge, and hiding the eggs. Flourite has rather large peices, so eggs slip down into the cracks and you really have to look to see some of them. They light tan of the eggs is also easily blended into the color of the Flourite substrate. It seems on tanks that are only housing the pair of Rams that they spawn on flat "open" surfaces, while tanks with other fish in them, they spawn on the substrate. I think as a defense against predators, again with camoflague.

Also, today I ordered a 24'' Coralife Aqualight 1x65w for this 10g tank. I'll be planting many more plants in the future, and I'm curious if the increased lighting will change the blue rams behaviour, of if the increase in number of plants will change their spawning locations.

They're still getting their "conditioning" food. Live foods, with many frozen, and the least amount of flakes/pellets that I can. I keep the temp at a steady 84.5F

Mystix212

08-27-2007, 9:18 PM

Great to hear updats. How much wattage are you planing to have? 110 would be nice.

Dread

08-28-2007, 3:38 AM

Great to hear updats. How much wattage are you planing to have? 110 would be nice.

110 watts over 10g would be 11wpg. I'd be growing an Algae farm! 6.5wpg is already over doing it without C02, but I'll manage it.

smallguy

08-29-2007, 12:23 PM

any updates, any signs of a second attempt? my rams have stoped fighting and are getting along now that they know who owns the tank, this paycheck im gonna go pick a nice big male and hopefully kick it off. ill let him settle in then do a big water change to see if i can get any action.

Dread

08-29-2007, 12:49 PM

Can't say much as been happening, Smallguy. I'm battling a bad case of various forms of Algae. I'm waiting for my Coralife light fixture, and hopefully soon, my ADA C02 Kit, then the tank will become heavily planted and nicely aquascaped.

The rams are still being conditioned, but I'm afraid it may be having a long term negative effect. Not for them, but for me. Their colors are great because of the mass amounts of live food, and their vigor is definately increased, the female is (I hope) filling with eggs quickly... but they refuse anything except live or frozen foods now. So I'll have to ween them off soon, after the next batch of eggs.

Dread

08-29-2007, 8:56 PM

Er, so today I found out that you shouldn't feed your fish after you take Vicodin. I've been taking it because of a recent root canal, and I accidently fed the rams a full cube of Hikari frozen Bloodworms. That was a total mess, and I had to do a large water change to clean it up. So.. lesson learned. I think my water parameters are off, and in a couple hours when I'm back to normal mentally I'll test the water.

rob page

08-29-2007, 9:02 PM

lol that stinks. :)

Dread

08-30-2007, 8:40 PM

Wow! 2,700 views! I'm impressed. =P Looks like there's interest in my little fish diary.

Dread

08-30-2007, 10:08 PM

Ok, as per request, here are the full tank shots.

There's not really much to it. I just got my Coralife light fixture, and I have to say... it's very very well made, looks awesome in my opinion, and lights very very well. My plants are constantly pearling now.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2587/fts006xb3.jpg

Here's the full line of products going into my aquarium. I'm unsure how this effects the fish, but it can't be too negativly. They're alive, and laying eggs.. soon, I'll also be adding Seachem's Flourish "Iron" fertilizer.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1396/fts003ss1.jpg

And the bedroom wall of a true fish dork. A 55g tank blocking half the closet, and a wall covered in fish photos.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/903/fts007pr1.jpg

And here's the algae problem I'm dealing with. I'm going to be using Seachem's Excel liquid C02 supplement as an algaeicide. Others have used to as such, and I have as well, with good results. I'll be dosing 3x the reccomended amount. I might consider getting 2 or 3 Oto catfish, but I'm unsure if they take care of this kind of algae. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate the information. Here's the mainstay of the problem:
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/317/fts012xx3.jpg

smallguy

08-31-2007, 1:28 PM

Dread

08-31-2007, 8:51 PM

sorry cant help you, ive only done one planted tank and didnt do much with it besides turn on and off the lights for the plants. today i was at the lfs and picked out my male but i have to wait till tomorrow or sunday to get him. extreamly colorful slightly larger male who looks in good shape. cant wait to see what happens when i add him

Good luck with them! I'm sure you'll find them easier than most people make them out to be. I know I was expecting hell spawning these guys, but it was fairly easy when you give them what they want.

As for my usual update. I noticed there's a new little dig dug. Front of the tank, left corner. The "old" pit was in the right corner. I don't know why, but it seems they dug this new pit for no reason. It's picked clean, but they're both hanging around the older pit, where eggs were first laid. I suspect they're going to use this old spot again in the very near future. Again, the female's breeding tube is starting to extend. They're being constantly conditioned, and in 2 days, I think I will raise the temp from 82F back to 84.5F where they spawned last time. The female has also plumped up abit.

As a side note, I am excited they're spawning easier than I expected for various reasons (one being money, I admit. Two LFS have already offered me $4 EACH for fry, which is extremely high). On the other hand, I'm slightly dissappointed in two ways. I was expecting more of a challenge like others have said it was. Everyone is always saying things like Blue rams are very sensitive, and touchy, and you have to cater to everything they need, and they're always sick. I've found the exact opposite. My male is very very hardy. The female is never stressed, although I found she seems to be very sensitive to Potassium. It seems everytime I dose my Pottassium for my plants, she gets quite dark, and begins to exhibit some black/brown vertical bars. Then I feed her and she's fine! :D . Another reason I'm just abit bummed (although it's not much at all. I'm just happy they're getting it on.) is because I was always told they spawned on flat surfaces. I would've LOVED to see them pick a leaf clean, and lay eggs on the leaf. I think they would've been very neat to see. But so far, both potential spawn sites have been pits that have been dug. Many say they spawn on a flat, usually brown for some reason, rock. I suppose they are capable and willing to be Pit Spawners aswell as Substrate spawners, depending on conditions, I imagine. I think M. Ramizeri is much different than it's cousin, M. Altispinosa, the Bolivian Ram, than most people suspect.

Mystix212

08-31-2007, 9:35 PM

When I said 110 watts, I somehow tohught this lighting fixture was going on a 26G. Not the 10G.

When I saw the tank shot, I thought, How many eggs do these little things lay! Knowing it doesnt look right, I found it was the pearling. I only thought Ricca (Crystalwort) pearled.

Dread

08-31-2007, 10:04 PM

Most aquatic plants will pearl. My Dwarf Sag, Amazon Swords, and unfourtunately, algae all pearl. Almost all day. As soon as I can get out to my favourite LFS (About a half hour drive, and WELL worth it), I'm going to be getting more plants. Probably some quick growing stem plants to try to cut down the algae. Possibly Rotala rotundifolia, Hydrocotyle verticillata, or maybe (probably not) Ludwigia glandulosa. I don't think I could balance the red of the Ludwigia glandulosa, or keep it alive without pressurized C02.

The lighting though is fantastic. It's definately overdoing it at 6.5wpg, especially with no pressurized C02 (just two DIY 2-liters), but it seems to be working great. I'm currently looking into either Otocinclus spp. or some smaller Plecos to take care of the BBA, as well as add some aesthetic appeal. It depends what my LFS has. They will always have Otos, but I want to see if I can get a smaller semi-uncommon L-number for this tank. They're usually really good about Plecos, especially rare L-numbers, but unfortunately, most of the ones they have get too large for this tank. I made a thread in the Pleco section here, and WyldFya gave me some good suggestions. I'm looking into a L183, and hoping WyldFya can give me some more information on those guys. Looks like he knows his Plecos.

Dread

09-01-2007, 7:25 PM

Alright, so I'm expecting eggs again tonight. Breeding tube is extremely poked out, like last time, and they're actively digging a pit. They did this the same night they laid eggs, so I expect they'll do the same now. I dunno if I'll catch the act again like I did last time, since I'll be going out. But, if when I get back, there's eggs, I'll post pictures and a nice little update.

Dread

09-01-2007, 10:03 PM

As expected. There's now eggs, and I got to watch them in the act again. Here's some pictures:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2374/spawn2007fd6.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5315/spawn2011qr5.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/236/spawn2015ov9.jpg

I noticed some things this time around that I found interesting. On their first spawn, they just dug a simple pit, laid eggs for a while, and did that junk, and then ate them. This time, they've dug multiple pits, which I suspect will be used in the future for moving fry and wrigglers to and from. There's also MANY more eggs. I've read that Tubifex worms can condition a spawning pair so they lay more viable eggs. It seems true for this. The actual spawning act took MUCH longer than it did before. It seems almost as if their 1st effort was a "trial run," whereas this 2nd attempt they've decided it's for real.

As a side note, the male keeps staring at the eggs. The only thing I can imagine him thinking is "****.. that's ALOT of child support," or "You've gotta be ****ing kidding me, woman. I'm no machine."

Mystix212

09-01-2007, 11:07 PM

As a side note, the male keeps staring at the eggs. The only thing I can imagine him thinking is "****.. that's ALOT of child support," or "You've gotta be ****ing kidding me, woman. I'm no machine."

:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

:headbang2

I would suggest an Oto for clearing the tank as most plecos usually ignore the hair and tuft/strong algae on your plants.

Dread

09-02-2007, 3:50 PM

:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

:headbang2

I would suggest an Oto for clearing the tank as most plecos usually ignore the hair and tuft/strong algae on your plants.

The algae has cleared up quite abit. I think ODing on Flourish Excel is doing the trick, even with my 65w light on for 15 or 16 hours each day.

As for an update: Today, I caught the 4 little Convict fry I had in the tank teaming up and nibbling on eggs! These rams are terrible parents. They just go off and wander around, and then one must be like "Ah, ****, the eggs..." and then they go back. So the 4 Con Fry were eating some of the eggs when mom & dad were away. It was a hassle to get them out, but I finally did it. I should've seen that coming. They're in a 55g now.

Also, today a friend suggested some names for the fish, with alot of help/input from me. So, here's the decided names:

Male: UpCDownCLeftCRightCABC+Start
Female: The Writers Audience is Fiction, and the Birds Are Spies, they Report to the Trees.

I also aptly namned one of the egg-stealing rat pig Convict fry "Trumpet Violin". He has very odd markings.

And yes, I will be calling them that in person. :)

PoopSmart

09-03-2007, 4:14 PM

I enjoyed reading this thread...I have never attempted to keep the blue rams since i don't have a RO unit and my water is about an 8, but my bolivian rams are always goin at it, never get free swimmers though.

anyways, you are lucky to have them pair off and breed so quickly, congrats.

Dread

09-03-2007, 7:05 PM

Still no wrigglers yet. I was kind of expecting them today. Oh well, the night is still young. I broke my good tape deck trying to get to their tank, though

Dread

09-06-2007, 3:03 PM

Eggs got eaten approx 4 hours before they could've hatched. >: ( Oh well, they'll breed again soon. I think it's a constant once a week.

smallguy

09-07-2007, 4:36 PM

glad your having a good time trying. at least its being alittle difficult for you, i guess you can really say "dont count your chickens till they hatch". i got a little distracted because im going to pick up another 55 gal for free tonight and tomorrow if i can get my paycheck ill be going to pick up a 90 gal complete setup for $200. not to mention the stupid people at my lfs were holding a male blue ram for me and i guess some other guy came in and wanted him so they asked him if his name was Lou and he looked confused then said yep and they gave him the male. so i went in there and asked for for the male they looked at me like a deer in headlights especialy because they know me by name in there and just i guess had a brain fart. oh well i think ill be saving money till i can pick up some nice cichlids for my new 90.

Dread

09-10-2007, 5:54 PM

So the 2nd eggs were eaten, but it took longer than the 1st batch did. I'm expecting eggs again within the next 2 days. I've noticed something funny about these guys. Where most Cichlids will dig their nests and make alot of preperations ahead of time, these guys seem to do it literally hours before eggs are laid. I can read them like clockwork now. If I see a wee bit of the breeding tube sticking out, and both are picking at a certain site, I know to expect eggs in the next 24 hours.

Also, maybe it's just my two, but live daphnia and live brine shrimp drive these guys nuts. It really brings out the color almost immediately.

smallguy

09-10-2007, 6:41 PM

i agree, its amazing what the live daphnia and brine shrimp do to there colors! haha not to mention your wallet.

Dread

09-10-2007, 6:56 PM

i agree, its amazing what the live daphnia and brine shrimp do to there colors! haha not to mention your wallet.

I have a Daphnia culture in my house. ^^ I get live brine shrimp at my favourite LFS for $1 for 600. :D

guppy breeder

09-10-2007, 7:34 PM

dang dude at my lfs it like 3 bucks per swip of the net in the bs tank

Dread

09-10-2007, 8:11 PM

I must be the lucky one, then! =D I just buy maybe $5 worth and keep them in a little shallow tub, and then take a pipette full and feed the fish. I feed this GBRs with one of these exact tools:
http://www.teachingmaterials.at/catalog1/images/pipette.jpg

It's easier, and it lets me see how much they eat, and still be exact. There's little measurements in the side, and I usually feed 3mL of live brine shrimp at a time. It's gotten to the point where if I put the pipette in the water, the fish attack it. ^^ I think it's hilarious seeing a brine shrimp scurry around the tank for days without getting eaten, and then get snatched up as a snack.

Dread

09-10-2007, 9:23 PM

As expected, there's now eggs again. I will try to get pictures sometime tomorrow, because it's late now, and I don't feel like fiddling with it before I go to bed. They've chosen a new spot now. Behind/in-between two large Amazon Sword plants. As last time, there appears to be more eggs than the previous batches. Seems like they're breeding once a week like clockwork. I plan to let the fry stay with the parents for quite some time, and see how that works out. If I see it's going negativly, I will remove the next batch once they're free swimming for 2 days. I kind of really don't want to rear the fry myself. I would rather it be as natural as possible in the confines of an aquarium, and let the parents skills and instincts shine, rather than my own doings. But, afterall, I would like to keep some of the first sucessful batch, so some will be removed when I feel comfortable enough to do so.

apistomaster

09-10-2007, 9:31 PM

The rams are never going to raise their fry. They will continue to eat their spawns. You will have to artificially hatch the eggs separately. The easiest way is to use a tank set up with a 1/2 inch of fine sand and have many flat smooth rocks slightly sand covered. They will expose the rock then lay their eggs on it.
Remove the eggs and place them in a bare bottom tank as described below with methylene blue or acriflavine to prevent fungus.

Rams spawn very easily but their fry are quite difficult to raise. They have zero tolerance for ammonia and nitrite. First foods should be small. Vinegar eels are a good starter food then microworms and at about six days they can all take bbs.

Use very shallow water(4 inches) and about a ten gallon tank for the fry. You will start with over 300 fry. The purpose of very shallow water is to keep the fry and their food in close proximity. Change half the water every day. Use water that matches what they are and in aged over night. Initially all you need is an air stone running gently. Once the are on bbs increase the depth of the water slowly over a few days to 8 inches. Be sure you have an established sponge filter to put into operation once the water is brought up to about 6 inches. Absolute cleanliness is essential at all times for rams.
Just continue to feed bbs and water changes. Once they are about 1/4 inch and look like little rams spread them out so stocking levels are about 3/4 gal per fish. Otherwise nitrites will rise and the fry will die. If you don't thin them down you will stunt them and they will die like flies until you are left with about one per 3/4 gal.

Rams do not do well on anything but live and frozen foods. If they take some prepared foods fine but they should not be forced to. They will just die.
Rams rarely live past 2-1/2 years. Breeding and raising rams is very different than Convicts. Ram fry are more difficult to raise than Discus. I have raised thousands of both and Discus are much easier of the two because discus feed their fry for you for the first week then bbs can be added to their diet.
It can take a long time to get a feel for raising ram fry so don't get too discouraged. They are much more difficult to get through the first month than other SA Dwarf Cichlids. Only Dicrossus filamentosus, the Lyre Tail Checkerboard Cichlid and black water Apistogramma species eggs and fry are more difficult than rams. Bolivian Rams are much easier for the beginner.

Dread

09-10-2007, 10:18 PM

Wow, thanks for all the advice! I may as well kind of start out with the hardest, eh? I kind of planned to check out Discus next. Not a big scale breeding project like you have, just a single pair, and see how I do. As far as cleanliness is concerned, I'm set there. I have a large number of established sponges ready to go at a moments notice, and I've been doing daily 50%+ water changes on some other tanks for months now.

As for the feeding, I think I'm set. These rams have only been fed prepared foods twice, and that was in a tight situation. They're usually fed frozen mysis, bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia, live daphnia, brine shrimp, and finely chopped earthworms. So far, they're doing alright, and spawning every week like clockwork has to be a good sign, right?

As for some spawning questions: I've talked to alot of people about breeding these Rams, and many of them said their Rams spawned on a flat surface (usually a rock) when their substrate was a sandy type. However, when I spoke to people using Flourite as a substrate for plants, like I am, they said their rams spawned only on the substrate, even given many flat surfaces, including rocks, to lay their eggs on. Mine seem to be the same. I have many flat rocks, not to mention plant leaves if they so chose, but they always chose the substrate (Flourite). I attribute this to camoflauge, as their eggs blend well with the Flourite substrate, but wouldn't as well on a rock. Obviously, this makes removing the eggs very difficult, if not clearly impossible. I'd like to try it in the future, maybe on a different tank with a sandy substrate. I wouldn't mind moving the fry once they're free swimming, but I'd like to avoid hatching the eggs myself as much/long as possible. I just don't feel comfortable enough at this point in doing that. What do you think the chances are the parents could raise their fry up until atleast free swimming? These two are wild caught incase it makes a difference.

Also, I've heard and seen cases of the Blue rams raising their fry, atleast for a couple weeks, without assistance. I understand it's a slim chance, but I'm hoping I can get lucky. I'm curious to know why you say this isn't going to be the case? I'm sure you'll turn out to be correct (after all, you've bred them sucessfully, I have only gotten eggs), but I'm interested in the reasons on why this could be?

And I don't see myself getting discouraged any time soon. I have a very steady supply of high quality breeder-supplied rams, and as these have quickly become my favourite fish, I don't see myself giving them up anytime soon, even if I fail to raise a spawn. Funny, considering this tank was supposed to be a "plant holding tank". A temporary tank setup to keep my plants alive until I could put them someplace in a planned aquascape.

apistomaster

09-11-2007, 10:31 AM

Dread,
The secret to breeding fish is to give them what they want and need.
The Blue rams do prefer a smooth rock that THEY uncover. They cannot dig easily in flourite and so they do what they can and lay their eggs in the pit.
If they allow their eggs to hatch the very small larvae fish will sift down into the flourite and die.
I do believe wild rams are the most likely to raise their fry than the farmed rams but not in a ten gallon tank. Because they are wild they are more demanding of an environment that they will feel more secure in. I recommend nothing smaller than a 20 Long, change to fine sand and bury many smooth rocks so they are barely visible. Then they will clean one off and lay their eggs on it. They will dig other pits that they will use to bed down their fry at night.
The first time I successfully raised rams was 1970. During the past 37 years and hundreds of spawns I have had one pair of Gold Rams, one time only, actually raise their young. Nearly 400 fry were the results. They ate all subsequent spawns like most rams do on the next day after spawning. I have known many others who have raised rams but I haven't met anyone who has done naturally. I know that others have but I am being honest with you when I say it is extremely rare.
Keep in mind that Rams die frequently for no apparent reason. This is one reason why it is wise to hatch one batch artificially first so if you lose one or both of the pair you will have plenty of replacements. Rams don't live long but they also mature fast so it isn't long before your own fry can begin spawning.
This way you still have plenty of pairs to continue to work with and of course the present pair until they die. They can look fine and be dead the next day so don't take it for granted that your pair will be around long. It is not very easy to find wild rams to replace them. Having your own first generation young rams as back up is just good insurance. They are as good as wild but with the advantage the are not likely to be carrying the parasites your wild fish are carrying. ALL wild fish have parasites.
Their you are, I have shared the fundamentals of breeding and raising rams successfully. The rest depends on whether you go with your fishes preferences and needs or wish to swim up stream.
You can find more information and ask other experienced breeders questions at www.apistogramma.com where experts hang, www.thecichlidforum.com, and www.thecichlidroomcompanion.com. I just check out the MFK forum once and a while.

Dread

09-11-2007, 2:15 PM

Thanks again for all the information, it will be a great help now and in the future. Maybe I will continue to keep this pair how they are, and purchase another Wild Caught pair, and raise them in a spare 20long I will soon have and do everything you have suggested. I appreciate your honesty, it's been of great help, and from two posts I've already learned loads. I'm in a good position for quality rams 9both tank-bred and wild caught) because of friends that are breeders, as well as a LFS that will order me a continous supply of wild rams. If these two drop dead tomorrow, I will be distraught, but I understand that they often have a sort've... SRDS.. Sudden Ram Death Syndrome.

As for another questions, I have a couple I was thinking about. Would a lone wild-caught pair in a 55g tank, setup to their standards, of course, have a decent chance of raising fry on their own, atleast to the free swimming stage? I've seen countless videos and talked to many people in my local area, who have purchased their Rams at the same places I have that have had their rams raise their own fry - but it was in a much larger than than what I am currently using. So would a larger tank up my chances for as close to natural fry raising as possible?

And I know what you mean about the forums. :D Every forum I'm on, you're there, too. Simply Discus, Cichlid-Forums, Apistogramma.com, and I think even Finarama, and PlanetCatfish and not to mention here. I think there's more, but I'm at school right now, and so I don't have access to my favourites list with all the forums I'm a member of.

Dread

09-11-2007, 3:25 PM

Alright, well I just got home... and I got some bad news.

The male ripped the **** out of the female. Alot of her fins are tattered, and she doesn't seem to have much use out of one of her pectoral fins, and he had some tattered fins as well, but his aren't too bad. So.. the female has moved to a 55g tank with a Krib, bristlenose, and a Bolivian ram. The water parameters definately aren't favorable for her, but I figure it beats the hell out of.. well, getting the hell beat out of you. The male remains in the 10g tank. I may reintroduce the pair into a more specially designed tank, like apistomaster suggested above one the injurys have healed (hopefully that happens, and the female doesn't die). This could very well take a while.. so I'm kind of thinking about putting this on hold, and starting something as a little side project with some cheap-o easy to breed fish (except livebearers and convicts). I don't really have too many ideas, so if anyone wants to chime in, you're more than welcome.

guppy breeder

09-11-2007, 4:40 PM

man tha sux about what happend to ur female and hope she gets better but next time you will lern to use a bigger tank so they can breed and have more room to freely swim

Dread

09-19-2007, 5:03 PM

Alright alright. So, today I ordered an ADA C02 Kit, which I've been meaning to for a long while (can be seen here (http://www.adgshop.com/CO_Advanced_System_p/101-602.htm)). 20 minutes after the order went through, the status turned to "Out of Stock".. so I think I got the last one! So, plants will now be grown hi-tech. Full "proper" Coralife lighting system, good fertilizers (Seachem Flourish line, full) and a pressurized C02 System (the ADA setup). Thus, I feel more confident putting the two fish back together again, because plants will grow very rapidly, providing more hiding spots in case of a fight. Both of their little wounds have healed fully, the female has colored up (male never lost colors), and has been inher own seperate 10g since seperation. Both tanks have the same water chemistry. The female's stomache is a bright rose color now, and she's quite plump, so I suspect she's filling with eggs. Hopefully this alone will be enough for the male to settle down with her atleast once more. I'll be attempting to put them back together sometime after dark, when the tank light is off. I figure I can ninja her in under the veil of darkness, while the male is asleep, and he will wake up and accept her presence. It's worked in the past for other fish, so I'm hoping for the best.

Dread

09-21-2007, 9:37 PM

So last night I re-introduced the pair. There was no aggression physically, and I couldn't tell if they were signalling each other as a sign of aggression or as courtship. The male immediately courted the female when I first bought her, so I wasn't sure which was the case this time. The male got very very dark, and flapped his fins really hard at her while swimming sideways, and the female did the same, except her colour stayed about the same. There's been no nipping or gesturing since. The females colours finally "popped" and it seems BOTH of their vigor is increased now that they're together insted of alone. The female's rose-coloured belly is showing a great deal more than I remember it before. So far, so good. I can easily see eggs in the near future.

fishlvr

09-21-2007, 10:09 PM

I would definately say courtship. If you raise the fry, what are you planning to do with them?

Valyrian

09-22-2007, 1:17 AM

Is that the 24" light fixture?

Dread

09-22-2007, 12:24 PM

I would definately say courtship. If you raise the fry, what are you planning to do with them?

A couple would be kept for future tanks and breeding, the obviously deformed and sub-par ones culled, and the rest would be given to my favourite LFS for store credit.

And Valyrian, yes, it's my 24'' fixture. :) I'm loving it so far.

Dread

09-29-2007, 6:53 PM

So I couldn't reists the urge to purchase some Apistogramma sp. from a new LFS I've found, and so my Rams have been relocated. The new tank is a fully cycled 10g, same water parameters as their old tank, except with a silica sand substrate and alot of leaf litter. They seem to be enjoying this tank, especially when I open the window almost directly above the tank. Here's some updated pictures of them in their new tank:

Male
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6471/new007hs7.jpg
Female
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1746/new009wn4.jpg
The both of'em
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9857/new006lv7.jpg

The tank appears 'dirty' but I assure you water quality is excellent. Nirates always under 5ppm for these guys. The pH 6, which I'm hoping will be a key to more success.

Dread

10-05-2007, 8:12 PM

Ok, ok. Another update. In their new tank, the pair spawned again. I noticed the eggs ontop of a clay pot turned on it's side. I also noticed some ragged fins on both fish, so I removed the female as a little experiment. I then read over Apistomaster's advice, and removed the male aswell. I put in an airstone in close proximity to the eggs, and I picked up the fungused ones with a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass. And well... that was a blast, as you can imagine. Both the rams are in a 55g tank. I have to admit that I haven't been giving them the attention they deserve. I've been kind of preoccupied with a new pair of Apistogramma sp. 'Pebas' I've aquired. This all happened 2 days ago, about. In the Ram eggs, you can see two little dots inside each, obviously little fry eyes. I'm hoping they will hatch soon, within a day, or better yet tonight. Even if only a couple survive, I'll be satisfied. If they don't make it past the wriggler stage, I'll be slightly disappointed about it, but I'll have gained some knowledge. I'll know I can get them to hatch using this method and work from there. These two Rams spawn like clockwork, and are easier than Convicts to spawn for me! I will update this frequently if they hatch. If they do not hatch, I will post it here and I won't be updating this until I've advanced a step (ie, the first time I get them to wrigglers, or free-swimming, etc). I'm open to suggestions on what to breed if anyone wants to toos some my way. At this time, I can only do smaller fish (>=7''), but maybe someone can learn from it. I figure "what is no benefit to the hive, is of no benefit to the bee" and I'm hoping just one person will benefit from these little journals, and can start their own projects if they want to.. As soon as these A. sp. 'Pebas' are mature (they're ~6months now), I'll definately look into them. I was thinking about trying A. Cacatouides 'Double Reds' because I hear they're a good start for the budding Apisto hobbyist. I've found a new LFS where I can acquire all the fishes I've been looking for for ages. Heckel Discus (which I won't even tackle now!) to Altum Angels (I can keep'em, but I don't think anyone can spawn'em), to many Apistos, to F0 Corydoras of all kinds. So any suggestions on things people would like to hear? I'm all ears, and I'll look into each suggestion carefully and seriously.

Dread

10-05-2007, 8:53 PM

And actually, to my amazment, when I glanced at the tank, I noticed a bunch og dots kind of vibrating, and I'll be damned! There's some wrigglers now. Not many yet, and there's only ~70 eggs total, so it won't be a huge brood.. but nonetheless! There's wrigglers, and I'm proud of myself.

jeromefish

10-09-2007, 8:59 PM

How long do the live food last and under what conditions do you keep it?

I must be the lucky one, then! =D I just buy maybe $5 worth and keep them in a little shallow tub, and then take a pipette full and feed the fish. I feed this GBRs with one of these exact tools:
http://www.teachingmaterials.at/catalog1/images/pipette.jpg

It's easier, and it lets me see how much they eat, and still be exact. There's little measurements in the side, and I usually feed 3mL of live brine shrimp at a time. It's gotten to the point where if I put the pipette in the water, the fish attack it. ^^ I think it's hilarious seeing a brine shrimp scurry around the tank for days without getting eaten, and then get snatched up as a snack.

elting44

10-09-2007, 9:32 PM

This is a great thread Dread, keep the info and updates coming!

fishlvr

10-19-2007, 12:01 PM

Any updates?

Dread

10-19-2007, 2:01 PM

How long do the live food last and under what conditions do you keep it?

I just pour it out of it's bag of salt water into a cup, and then into the dropper and then into the tank. Kept in a cup with original water, and an airstone, food usually lives for a couple days, atleast.

As for updates:

There WERE wrigglers, however through my own error, I lost them. Literally lost them. The tank was heavily decorated with leaf litter, and so the wrigglers fell from the top of the flowerpot to the leaf litter below. And goodluck finding a 3mm thread-with-eyes in 1'' of leaf litter. I basically abandoned hope with them. The Rams went into a 55g with a Bolivian Ram, BN Pleco, and 15 Serpae tetras. The female still gets very gravid and lays eggs in the community tank, however, as imagined, they're devoured really quickly. Next time, I plan on moving the eggs to a 5g I have setup for hatching. Barebottom 5.5g, 2 clay pots, a matured sponge filter, and a limewood airstone will be placed right next to the eggs to prevent debris from gathering on them.

apistomaster

10-20-2007, 1:28 PM

Dread

10-22-2007, 6:21 AM

I think I tried to point out earlier that a balance needs to be struck between using a smaller tank to artificially hatch the eggs and then start out the fry; ten gallon tanks filled half way work well. The little fry need to be kept in close proximity to their food. Every effort should be made to encourage the rams to spawn on a removable smooth stone. Provide one or more and in a tank with just a sprinkling of sand and they breeders will normally choose the stones.

Ram fry are extremely sensitive to changes in all parameters so it is wise to have extra water prepared that closely matches in every way the water they were spawned in.

This is what I'm working on. They're cleaning a rock at the moment, which would be a nice spawning surface, as I could remove it. For the future, a bare tank will be used to hatch (a 5g), and then once they're free swimmings, they'll be moved to a 10g filled about 1/2 way, as you said.

pitbullbadass

10-22-2007, 10:55 PM

wow i really think rhis whole breeding thing is kik ass

jloos1988

10-23-2007, 1:17 AM

very nice thread dread and very nice input apistomaster. i got three more tanks recently...29 and two 20 longs for breeding and i've been planning to breed rams. didnt realize how tough it can be. what i got out of this is that you need to try as hard as you can to get the rams to spawn on a rock or slate so you can remove it to another "hatchery tank" so the parents dont eat the eggs, and keep the hatchery tank bare bottom with low amount of water so the fry can easily find the food. what about the spawning tank? should that have substrate because like dread i got a 10 gallon planted tank with a flourite bottom.

jloos1988

10-23-2007, 1:19 AM

BTW dread if u actually get some of your fry to growout, if your not too far from me, would you sell me a male & female?

Death Pony

10-23-2007, 3:19 PM

This is really helpful, thanks Dread. I might breed rams for a little income while at college.

apistomaster

10-25-2007, 8:22 PM

jloos1988

10-25-2007, 9:02 PM

I prefer using a thin layer of silica sand in ram breeding set ups. They do like to sift the sand.

ok thx apisto

Dread

10-26-2007, 7:48 PM

BTW dread if u actually get some of your fry to growout, if your not too far from me, would you sell me a male & female?

Sure, if I ever grow some out, I'll let you know.

Or, if you wouldn't like to wait, you can get wild caughts at Preuss Pets in Lansing, and Fantastic Fins in Livonia, literally right down the road from the Fish Doctors in Canton, has F-1s avaliable. Fantastic Fins also has ALOOOOT of Dwarfs for sale all the time. Plenty of Apistos. One of the only places I've found. I got this pair at Preuss Pets. They have outstanding quality Rams there, and any other "staple" fish you can think of (and oddballs from time to time).

Fantastic Fins for Dwarfs and 'Monsters' though. Plenty of Rays and what nots. I just picked up some Dwarf Pikes, Crenicichla Regani there today. THAT's my next breeding project. ;)

And an update while I'm at it:
The rams spawned in a community 55g tank. I believe they even got some wrigglers, however they were quickly picked off by Cardinal Tetras, Rummynose, and I'm sure the Corydoras Sterbai ate some as well. However, definately a step forward. Although when I seriously attempt to breed them again (near future) I will use a hatching tank, I'm beginning to think all my rams needed was some experience. I know that long-time aquarium bloodlines loose their potential parentaing skills (supposedly), these guys are wild, so in theory, they should raise fry just fine. Maybe just some experience and "dry-runs" were needed to teach them to parent correctly.

However, I made a mistake by changing more than one thing. It may be the experience, but it may also be that there are other fish in their tank. So maybe they feel the need to be en garde 100% of the time, so they end up being better parents. Maybe a combination of both. Who knows. This will continue for sure!

And thanks everyone for the kind words. :) I'm glad people have enjoyed this so far, and that there's interest in these kinds of threads. Maybe my C. Regani will be the next 'Journal'? ;) I was going to do Corydoras Pygmaeus but they proved way too easy! I was asking around on PlanetCatfish one day (and ApistoMaster answered my question there too!) about what they would eat, and the next day, EGGS.. so, no real journal there, just "add cool water"..

Mystix212

10-26-2007, 9:49 PM

You seem to hve a bunch of success, eh? I couldnt even get my convicts to spawn for 5 weeks after thier last and only succesful batch. They previous 4 spawns would always get picked off by the other fish, but these fry now pick back!

apistomaster

10-27-2007, 1:04 PM

Hi Dread,
I'm glad your breeding projects are progressing well.
I think it is interesting that you just bought the C. regani. I bought six young ones last March and a few were killed by ther "buddies but I still have one large male and three females. These are a species I have not bred. It looks like I am going to have to give them their soft acid water because they seem good to go in all other respects. They are like big Apistogrammas to me. Not all that mean except occasionally with each other. I set them up in a 55 gal where I have stashed my breeder reg., and albino "Guppyostomus" Bushy Nose plecos. I have way too many bushynoses and now let the pikes eat any new fry.

Dread

10-27-2007, 5:49 PM

Odd, to say the least, as mine are in the same setup! =P I moved everything in my fishroom around to give these C. Regani a chance. I would've purchased more than what I did (only 1m, 1f) however I was short on cash and didn't want to write a check for $30. The store I purchased them told me they could call if they had more next weekend, or any left over.

I was surprised to see a male in the dealer's tank that was pushing 6''! It could hardy even be considered a dwarf. From everything I have read, their breeding sounds really interesting. Many people seemed to have reported that the eggs were dangling from short "threads" hanging from the ceiling of a clay pot.

I'm really hopeing my guys color up abit. The female looks good, but the male is slightly washed out, and both looked skinny. The pictures I've seen of wild ones all looked very emaciated, which makes me wonder if life is that hard for these little guys. He's plumping up well with the female, and so I'm hoping everything goes well. They're currently in a 55g tank with Play Sand as substrate, 2 large amazon swords, and plenty of rocks that form caves. The water is a mix of 20% RO/80% Tap. I haven't taken measurements, but when I try to breed them soon, I plan on a pre-determined mix of 40% RO/60% tap which gives me very soft acid water, with a pH of about 6.

Jkoziatek

10-27-2007, 6:35 PM

this thread was very very helpful./.. cleared up alot of my questions

Dread

10-27-2007, 8:13 PM

this thread was very very helpful./.. cleared up alot of my questions
Glad I wasn't just updating this for myself! Happy to be of help, and hopefully continue to be.

And a quick sneak of whats to possibly come...

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1198/pikes010gh4.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7589/pikes003vl6.jpg

Definately great little fish. My female is already trying to throw her weight around, and the male has taken up residence in a clay pot. Looks like a new 'Journal' may be on the way.

fishlvr

10-27-2007, 8:59 PM

Sweet. Pike cichlids are the coolest.

Dread

10-27-2007, 9:21 PM

fishlvr

10-27-2007, 10:28 PM

I want to buy some of the babies from you if(when) you get a hatch. They look cool, but I can't seem to find them anywhere.

apistomaster

10-28-2007, 10:32 AM

Funny thing is.. and this is true even now.. I can't stand "standard" sized Pike Cichlids. But these Dwarfs are just one of the coolest fish I think I've ever seen, let alone owned! I guess my signature should read "Down with Crenicichla over 7'' '' ^^
Please forgive me side tracking the Ram discussion a bit.

I have been through what I call my big Cichlids phase long ago but I still find them very interesting. I'm am glad that there are many working with the large Pike Cichlids but Discus are my only large Cichlids.

I do think Pike Cichlids, and particularly the dwarf species have a tough life in the wild. Like the Apistogrammas, I don't think the Dwarf Pikes get to live to ripe old age. in the wild.
I have found that at least my C. regani are not as ruthless predators as their big brothers. I have actually been able to keep Pencil fish with my adult C. regani.
They seem to prefer small fry, frozen blood worms and of course live Black Worms. Mine were about 3-inches in March and now the remaining Male is about 5-inches TL, the females are about 4-inches.
Dread, Do try to feed black worms to your C. regani; it will really put some weight on them and they will grow very fast.

I am in the middle of setting up a proper RO water production and storage system but pretty soon I'll have an ample supply so I can give the pikes and my Heckel Discus the correct water conditions. I grew my Heckels out from rarely available 3-inch specimens. They are all at least 5-1/2 inches now and finally old enough to spawn if they want too. Heckels do not breed very often in captivity. I have to show a gratuitous shot of them. I am unashamably proud of my ten Heckels.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P8210045.jpg

The C. regani were in good supply here in the Pacific North West this past year but the wholesaler was selling them as C. wallacei despite females' having the prominent dorsal fin ocelli(eye spots). They were very reasonably retail priced at $12 each. Not too surprising as they were also selling Apistogramma iniridae as Apistogramma pertensis. They do resemble one another.

Dread

10-28-2007, 11:34 AM

Yes, I've been working on getting a steady supply of live black worms. What I have fed of them looks good. They get devoured really quickly, even by my C. Pygmaeus. After two days of power feeding and daily 25% water changes, they seem to have put on some weight with just Frozen Bloodworms, Live Brine Shrimp, Mysis (which seems to be the favourite) and slightly crushed Hikari Bio-Gold+. The male, who was shy for a while, is now out and about like everyone else in the tank. I'm going to try to get more when I go back to the store that I got these from. They looked drab at first so I was hesitate about getting more from the same place, however now they're as colourful as any photograph I've seen of them, so maybe just stress in the dealer tank affected the colours. They're only housed with Apistogramma sp. 'Pebas and Corydoras Pygmaeus however in the future, I plan to add either Rummynose or Cardinal tetras. I'm unsure of which I'd like more.

And nothing wrong with being proud of those Heckels, I would be too! Everytime I see that picture posted, I have to resist the urge to go buy my first couple of Discus! =P

Incredulous_Ed

10-30-2007, 12:54 PM

Hey dread, this is a great journal. I was wondering, how much did you pay for your german blue rams? They are 12.99 t0 14.99 here for quality ones.

oii

10-30-2007, 1:10 PM

I'm Molly's boyfriend.. msg me on AIM if you ever get your computer working.. xCrackR0CKSteady is my AIM name.

Dread

10-31-2007, 6:56 AM

I'm Molly's boyfriend.. msg me on AIM if you ever get your computer working.. xCrackR0CKSteady is my AIM name.

Yeah, I can do that. Everything seems settled out now, so tonight around 8 or so I'll IM you. Watch for "Tubby Dread".

oii

10-31-2007, 12:06 PM

Yeah, I can do that. Everything seems settled out now, so tonight around 8 or so I'll IM you. Watch for "Tubby Dread".

I'll be delivering pizzas but I should be back around 8:30-9. If you're not on it doesn't matter.

fishlvr

11-09-2007, 10:44 PM

Any updates?

ziggy2

11-12-2007, 4:36 PM

Those Discus are AWESOME!

Dread

11-12-2007, 5:05 PM

Any updates?

None so far. They're back in their old (first) 10g tank, same style. Feeding on the same foods, same schedule. Same water chemistry and everything. No signs of breeding. I'm starting to think they're seasonal breeders, possibly like certain Loricariidae are rumoured to be. Since in spring and late summer, I had breeding almost every other week; nothing now.

apistomaster

11-13-2007, 7:48 PM

Rams are short lived fish that burn bright but don't last long. When they stop breeding it is often the first sign of senescence.

fish-aholic

11-24-2007, 8:01 PM

Rams are short lived fish that burn bright but don't last long. When they stop breeding it is often the first sign of senescence.

Wow that's a put down. = (

fish-aholic

11-24-2007, 8:12 PM

Also how did you use the 24" light on the 20" tank? I am looking to upgrade the lights on my ten gallon and would LOVE one of these! Those pics don't seem to work for me.

apistomaster

11-26-2007, 8:34 PM

.

Wow that's a put down. = (

It wasn't meant to be a put down. Rams are a naturally short lived species usually found in 90*F water. That is why one needs to save an early spawn even if it means artificial methods because if one waits for a rare parental rearing the window of opportunity will be lost.
I regard them as semi-annual Dwarf Cichlids. Doesn't mean I don't think they are great fish; they are just different from most Cichlids.

Dread

11-27-2007, 10:31 PM

Indeed they are, and it is true. I have done everything to induce spawning again, and nothing has worked. I think they've just faded away in terms of their breeding. I know the male atleast is about 1.5 years old.

nuclearfish

11-28-2007, 11:05 PM

From my experience they seem to spawn better in bigger tanks. Also, to get them into the mood you should lower the temperature of the water to about 23-25 degrees celcius to mimic the rainy season. I've had much luck over the years with these fish, but in most cases you'll have to rear the eggs yourself after the male has fertilize them while using a fungicide to prevent the eggs from fungussing.

chilligirl

11-30-2007, 12:30 PM

what an interesting thread! I've always loved rams, and had actually read this thread just a few days before I bought a pair for my 90G. I'm glad I had, because I recognized the signs that the female was getting ready to spawn, from what you'd written.

I put the pair in the tank on Tuesday evening, and they spawned last night, just over 48hours later. As mentioned, it's a 90G tank. Substrate is black sand, there's a piece of driftwood, a variety of rock, including some flat ones, and a couple silk plants. Tankmates are 6 angels, 3 platies, 6 glowlights, and a bushynose pleco. The rams spent the first part of yesterday evening meticulously "cleaning" a leaf on the silk plant, and guarding the area around it from all the other fish. After a couple hours of this, the female started laying eggs. She didn't lay many, I'd say between 20 and 40 over a half hour period. As she laid them, the male went behind her, eating them, rather than fertilizing. Could be he was thinking, "hey lady, I don't want 300 kids!" lol. Once she was done with the egg laying (and he with eating them), things went back to normal, and they were no longer guarding the plant, although they're still always together.

I wasn't planning on breeding, so it really doesn't matter to me if they have a successful spawn. I just thought it was VERY cool to see! I got the rams simply because I'm a huge dwarf cichlid fan, and I think GBR are about the prettiest fresh water fish there are.

mukundam123

03-09-2008, 4:03 AM

How large were your rams when they started to breed? I think mine are still jeuvenilles, but am not sure.
Cheers

gill

03-09-2008, 5:13 AM

Thanks for this, I just gt a pair of rams yesterday and added them to my 4footer.
They were only 3Pounds(6$) for the pair.
I always thought that the females had the red Abdomen, the male has a slight red tint to his Abdomen.
Also as they are Very cheap at this :FS would it be better to buy a grop of femles and males and see what pairs off or just alot of fmales for the male.

mukundam123

03-10-2008, 3:33 AM

Hey Gill, Where did you get them from? I pay £7 EACH for the two I've got! I want to get more...increase the chance of pairing!
Cheers

gill

03-11-2008, 2:11 AM

Hey Gill, Where did you get them from? I pay £7 EACH for the two I've got! I want to get more...increase the chance of pairing!
Cheers

I get them from R+S Aquatics in Coventry Pool Meadow Bus Station. They are smal at around and Inch. I'm Getting some more tommorrow lunch time

girlracor69

05-13-2008, 11:27 AM

hi how can i tell if my blue ram is pregnant please help thanks

girlracor69

05-13-2008, 11:32 AM

how do i know if my blue ram is pregnant and how would i know when she is redy to lay her eggs thnks

chesterthehero

05-13-2008, 10:58 PM

this is a really great thread... mine keep killing eachother and thanks to this thread i now understand that breeding these guys is not for me...

however i am enjoying watching them get blown across the tank when they swim infront of the intake tube...

fishlvr

05-17-2008, 8:24 AM

how do i know if my blue ram is pregnant and how would i know when she is redy to lay her eggs thnks

They don't really get "pregnant", just full of ripe eggs. She'll be fatter and have a crimson belly.

dhgyello04

05-27-2008, 3:05 PM

Hello peoples...
I have one pair of GBR and would like to move them to a 30 or 40 gallon planted tank for both show and breeding. I am not in the market to breed, but if it happens that would be cool. they have spawned once so far and have not since. They are in a 30 hex now with other so they ate there eggs. I have read that it will take 4 to 5 times before they understane how to become parents.

I do not now a lot about planted tanks and or lighting so i will need some help there. Again this will be more for a show tank and not too much of a breed tank. thanks for your time

Don

jimsuy

08-22-2008, 12:53 AM

any update ram fry?

McKenzie

02-13-2010, 3:03 AM

Hey peps!
I'm new to the site so just looking for sum info on the beautiful blue rams
as i have two pairs, i finally find two of each, so difficult to tell the sex's apart
one at the mo has a Rosie tummy that is fairly swollen, which i noticed today which is awesome
i have in my tank, 1 red clawed crab (which is the iffy bit with breeding them, you knew claws and all that lol 4 rummy nosed tetras 2 guppies that im breeding too 2 kuhli loaches 4 dwarf pencil fish 2 algae eaters and 2 others im not to sure about their name
so quite a mixture of fish
what are the characteristics of the female and male mating and laying eggs what to look out for

with regards =)