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    What is F0/F1?

    Discussion in 'Central and South American Cichlids' started by Nemesis, May 4, 2010.

    1. Nemesis

      Nemesis MFK Members

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      Now I know that it technically means the generation of the fish from it's wild parent (F0xF0=F1, F1xF1=F2, and so on....), but what is the precise definition of it? Who made up the term? Is the F# referring to the generation of the fish from it's wild parents, or the generation of the clean bloodline? For example (F0(new blood)xF0(new blood)=F1(offspring of new blood) now take offspring from a different F0 pair: F1(pair 1)xF1(pair 2)= ? F2(new blood)). It's technically a new blood line, that is traced back to 2 separate parents, just as in the wild. No inbreeding at all (which imo is the whole reason the F# system is even used for fish...to tell how clean a bloodline is). Is it the same as interbreeding F1's from the same parents?

      If the true definition for F0 is the "base" bloodline, then breeding a pair of F1's from 2 separate parents would bring the F# back to 0? But that sounds absurd right? If the true definition is the generation from wild parents, then that would make the F1's from separate parents F2, just as F1's that are inbred from the same parents. Either way, it get's pretty confusing. If it's generation from wild parents, how do you differentiate the F2(from F1 same parent) fry from the F2(from F1 different parent) fry? Maybe F2*! If it's bloodline how do you differentiate the wild caught F0 from the captive bred F0? Maybe just call them that... wc F0 vs cb F0!

      Imo the wc F0 would still be a bit more desirable due to the fact that cb F0 don't have to deal with "survival of the fittest" in the wild as wc's do, thus making weaker fish from the brood, still able to reproduce. I'm not saying this is how it works, just pointing out the difference between a wc clean bloodline, and a cb clean bloodline.

      Wouldn't it be less confusing to just label a wc fish as wc, and leave it to the breeder to explain the generation of the cb offspring? Example: your fish's grandparents were wc. Most people stop counting/caring after F3 anyways, so it shouldn't be that hard.

      I'm not looking for any arguments, just some clarification and discussion. Thanks in advance for any input :)
       
    2. HiImSean

      HiImSean MFK Members

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      i believe it was coined by the geneticist Gregor Mendel. from my studies of genetics i understand it to be a generalized reference point. he did many cross pollination experiments with peas to observe their offspring's traits and to be able to easily explain his results, the F1 generation was from the result of the F0 parents cross. we use it int he hobby to refer to wild caught fish in the aspect that F0 and F1 fish will be more valuable.
       
    3. flowerpower

      flowerpower MFK Members

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      I think the term stems from Mendel's experimentation with peas. Geneticists use the term much differently than we in the hobby do. In a genetic experiment f0 represents the original specimen from which the subsequent offspring descend whereas, to us, it means wild.
      It is not unusual for terminology to have different meanings or connotations depending on where you go or who you're speaking to. For instance if you go to Colombia and refer to a woman you just met as 'bellaco' you'd be saying that she's disagreeable; however, say the same thing about a woman in Puerto Rico and you'd be saying that she's horny.
      Let's hope the woman you just met is puerto rican.
       
    4. Modest_Man

      Modest_Man MFK Members

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      It's a bastardization of the use of filial generations in genetics (hence the F).

      So yes, using it correctly any unrelated crossing would lead to an F1 generation. You would only get to F2, F3, etc. if you then crossed those same offspring. Anytime you add new genetic material you have a new Parental generation (P) and it starts over with F1.

      The way it is used in fish is totally incorrect and leads to a lot of confusion.

      What I really dislike is that you can have two unrelated wild parents and get an F1 fish, or you could have two wild siblings (very common when you buy a batch of smaller wild fish as they were probably from a single spawn netted in the wild) and get an F1 fish. Granted, you really don't see any issues with line breeding until the 4th or 5th generation but still.
       
    5. ExoticTrading

      ExoticTrading MFK Members

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      So F0 x F1 = F?
       
    6. Modest_Man

      Modest_Man MFK Members

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      Exactly. It's messed up. Since fishkeepers denote it to determine generations from the wild that would be a F2 fish (you should classify from farthest from the wild, not closest).

      Using the terminology correctly that would be a new F1 offspring as you have two parents with different genetic backgrounds (that makes them the P generation).
       
    7. buddha1200

      buddha1200 MFK Members

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      interesting,this should have been a discussion along time ago. F0xF1(unrelated)=F?
      I could see how this would get more and more confussing.
       
    8. flowerpower

      flowerpower MFK Members

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      I think it's pretty well understood that, despite its meaning to genetic researchers, f0 is and has been synonymous with wild in the hobby. To avoid confusion, we should keep it that way.
       
    9. Modest_Man

      Modest_Man MFK Members

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      F0 means wild, yes. That's pretty easy.

      What about my example above? F0 sibling cross and unrelated F0 cross still both yield F1. Should it? One F1 is already a generation inbred.

      An F1 crossing from that same scenario yields an F2 with two generations of inbreeding while an F1 crossing of un-related parental stock yields an F2 with no inbreeding.

      F0 X F0 (wild siblings) = F1 X F1 (siblings) = F2. Two generations inbred.

      F0 X F0 (unrelated) = F1 (fish A)
      F0 X F0 (unrelated) = F1 (fish B)

      Those F1 (A) X F1 (B) = F2 offspring with no history of inbreeding.

      Both are F2, same quality of genetics in the fish? It's a crappy system that was never meant to be used as it is.
       
    10. peathenster

      peathenster MFK Members

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