in a genetics sense, f0xf0 does not necessary mean sibling genetics. crossing f1xf1 or f2xf2 would. in the fish hobby, i don't think we characterize f1xf1 having the same genetic background.Modest_Man;4117635; said:
What is F0/F1?
- Thread starter Nemesis
- Start date
I don't think I said it was (in regards to genetics), but it can easily happen in the hobby, especially when fishermen just net a spawn from parents in the wild.HiImSean;4117675; said:
Again though, F1 X F1 can easily have the same genetic background (I'd put money on the vast majority of F1 breeding is with siblings). It's simply much easier to buy a batch from the same parents.
Was my post confusing? I'd really rather draw diagrams.
im not saying you said thatModest_Man;4117723; said:
im just trying to help the OP get a better understanding. yes, most collectors probably collect F0 fry from the same batch which is unfortunate.
Man do I love this topic every time it comes up. Modest_Man has it spot on so I don't need to rant. I understood filial genetics before I really got interested in the hobby to the point where I encountered this F# system. I agree that things should stay the way they are because too many understand it this way. I feel like this thread may be giving this topic some closure for a while, but who knows when someone will decide to just post a new thread with out searching for the answer here.
This was what I basically meant. But you explained it so much betterModest_Man;4117635; said:
.I completely agree with you Peter, and thanks for the link, it was very informative. I never knew that you teach and study genetics. The current F# system is flawed, and I would like to know who originally started using it for fish, and what were their original intentions.peathenster;4117644; said:
The current F# system basically just tracks the generation of the fish from it's wild parents, but really doesn't track how "clean" the bloodline is. Granted in most cases they go hand and hand, but there are some exceptions. For instance, say I buy a group of 4 F1 midas from one guy, then figure out I have all females. So I decide to buy another unrelated F1 male from someone else, and end up spawning him with one of my females. Yes, the fry would be 2nd generation from the wild parents, but it would be an untainted bloodline. Or if I were a purist, I would purposely buy F1's from different parents to preserve the bloodline.
I think that if there is going to be a system, then it should track both the generation, and the bloodline.
Example:
G(Generation of the fish)
F(Bloodline)
Wild Caught Specimen= G0,F0
Spawn from that wild caught pair= G1,F0
Spawn from the G1,F0 same brood= G2,F1
Spawn from a G1,F0 different broods= G2,F0
Spawn from G2,F1 same brood= G3,F2
And so on and so on........
I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this can come up with something better than this, but hey...I tried
Where a system like this would be much more efficient, it would also be very confusing for many that are used to the current system like F1N01 stated. It would completely throw off the balance of the way things currently are. Maybe there is just no point questioning the current system because it's so established. Most vendors just use the F# system because it's what their consumers understand. If everyone were to put in the effort to make it a better system, then it might be possible to change.
On another note, I would like to see studies concentrating on how many generations down does it actually take before a species starts to feel the effects of inbreeding. If it's already been done, please direct me to the info
Studies have been done.
More Here.
And Here for cichlids specifically.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119557049/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
More Here.
And Here for cichlids specifically.
Why does this have to get muddied? F0 = beginning of the line (not necessarily wild), F1 = first generation derived from the F0 specimens, F2 = second generation from F0 specimens and so on. Weather I buy wild fish for a breeding program or I buy pet shop mutts for the breeding program, they ARE the F0 stock (regardless of the purity of the bloodline), their offspring would be F1 and their offspring's offspring would be F2 etc. ect.
The point is (maybe I am the only one that feels this way) that the F# system doesn't work the way that it's used in the hobby. A dealer w/o scruples could call his inbred haggard old breeding stock is F0 and a lot of people might assume he means wild. . . just sayin LOL
The point is (maybe I am the only one that feels this way) that the F# system doesn't work the way that it's used in the hobby. A dealer w/o scruples could call his inbred haggard old breeding stock is F0 and a lot of people might assume he means wild. . . just sayin LOL
