Need Some Opinions

[The Dark Knight]

Hiya, I'm a reptile-keeper who is trying to make a display cage for my Chinese Water Dragon, and have some questions and concerns about the water area (which is why I'm on a fish forum).

Now I am not the best of artists (it's actually something I'm horrible at), but I made a sketch of the top view of my designs on my phone. The green area is my land section, the red a shallow cove area (roughly 4" deep), the blue where my acrylic will be, and since I ran out of colors the 12" deep pool of water is yellow. I also included the measurements that might be a tad difficult to figure out what-goes-where, but if you have any concerns just ask and I'll straighten em out.

I did that just to give you a rough idea of what I'm planning, and it feels pretty ambitious of me. I'm pretty handy with a drill and a jigsaw, but I've never dealt with a water feature before which is where this gets tricky. My biggest concern is the sealant, which I'd been researching for about a week now before I came across the suggestion of pool plaster. It has a lot of what I'm looking for in one package, such as the purpose to be submerged in water for extended periods of time, the non-toxic properties, the forgiving texture that won't tear up a clumsy dragon, a reasonable price tag, and the inability to crumble off into dust over time. The only major drawback is that it seems to be difficult to acquire a relatively small amount, and a lot of websites seem to be connected to the customer through contractors, whom I'm obviously not going to hire for such a small project. The best option in my case seems to be making my own plaster, which comes with its own problems (such as the blantant disability to find marble sand in my area and the lack of trust I hold for myself). If I go down this road, I'll definitely experiment with the mixtures before it goes on roughly $100 worth of wood since I'll have an excess of materials, and see if I can have a waterproof surface that isn't totally whacked out of shape. I'm also unsure if silicone will adhere well to it, which will definitely be a case of trial-and-error, although at about $30 for a decent amount of plaster, I might be able to tinker with different sealants.

My next concern is whether or not the plaster will hold up to the tiny, needle-like claws of a swimming lizard. I plan on adhereing fake rocks to the walls to provide climbing areas and discourage this, although it's bound to happen eventually. If anyone with a pool could help me with this, it'd be appreciated.

Not having to do with the sealant, I still have a few concerns. Since these lizards LOVE to defecate in their water and their water alone, I'm kind of apprehensive on adding any sort of live fish or plants in their due to the amount of water changes and filtration that they'd have to endure, although my brother (a seasoned aquarist) suggested an algae skimmer to help combat this should I go down this path, which I'm only familiar with in the saltwater sense. Would this make a significant enough of a difference with the right amount of filtration? Or do you think it would be best to just not add anything live save the dragon?

Oh, one last thing. Being a reptile paludarium, the water area is going to be subjected to some serious amount of heat and UV Rays. Do you think this will be a major concern with the sealant (which I do plan on applying on the ENTIRE inside of the cage to keep the wood from rotting, even near the lights)? Or would this melt/deteriorate anything?

Sorry if I seem naive or that this is a mouthful, but I'm just trying to figure out a plan before I go out and try to put this thing together. Again, I'm a reptile-geek and not a fish-guy, so if any of my questions seem ridiculous to you, break it to me easy and try and be respectful. Thank you in advance for reading my mouthful of a question

 

[Drstrangelove]

That sounds great.

Have you considered hydraulic cement? Personally, I've used it to plug active leaks in walls (please note that I'm nothing close to a handyman) and it was a cinch to use and work with. It's very inexpensive as well (HD has 4 lbs for $7.50 where I live.)

According to this write-up, it's non toxic and doesn't leach into water, but that would the thing I'd research longer. Also, I don't know if the cement is too hard for your pet. Otoh, the cement will certainly not wear down, flake or be damaged by UV rays, bacteria, humidity or dirty water.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Terrarium-vivarium-waterproof-rock-work-for-frog/
http://www.reptileforums.net/forums/showthread.php?84277-building-water-dragon-terrarium
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...om-plywood-vivarium-few-questions-newbie.html
http://www.3reef.com/threads/creating-rockscapes-using-hydraulic-cement.106335/

You could mix in number of large smooth rocks and create a natural looking wall and "river" edge.

It sets very fast even in the presence of water, but the links I provided might give you a lot of ideas and guidance.

If you want something softer and not so expensive, this might work.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-fake-rock-cavebasking-spot-for-a-reptile-c/




Good luck!

 

[The Dark Knight]

Drstrangelove-

I have considered plain old cement before I learned that cement, by itself, was not as waterproof as I originally assumed. Plus it would be a pain should I (and trust me, I will) move it. I'm still open to the idea though, so I'll look into it.

My concerns are that my water dragon will jump from a higher perch into shallow water (which they like to do), and if he were to land in somewhat shallower water, I want a safety net for this. If I do use use something brittle like cement, I could coat the floor of the water area in something soft and cushiony, but it's all up in the air right now. A lot of things to consider, too many options to choose from.

I love your idea about the river's edge and bank, as I was kind of considering making it look sorta "cliffy" with sterofoam stones lining the walls inside and outside the enclosure (with a rocky overhang over the lid of the enclosure). I was even going to drill some dead tree limbs to the walls to mimic those sick, wimpy trees you'd see growing out of the sides of a cliff. Might plant some vines that'll take to the wall too, or some tillandsias. Also considering draping spanish moss over the wood perches, although I'm getting off track here.

As for the water area, I think I'll silicone some sterofoam to the boards before I attach the stony-foam in place (the first layer being solely for insulation). Before I drill the boards together, I'll slap some cement or pool plaster on there so I can disassemble it at a later date should the need arise (might use pool plaster for the flooring and cement everywhere else. But again, it's up in the air). I'll seal the edges with water-proof putty (not sure of the material but I know it exists), although I'm still sketchy on that.

That'll give you a rough idea as to what I'm planning. I don't think I'll add a major waterfall simply because I've tried it and I had a rough time, with leaks left and right, water not running the way I designed, and while it was pretty on a good day, my animals didn't really benefit from it. If I go down that road again, it won't be any more than a trickle down the rockwork to get that wet rock sort of feel.

 

[spiff44]

This reminds me of a setup I had full of baby nile monitors... a 70gall aquarium with a big hood I made that went up to the ceiling, shrink wrapped with a nice door in the front and a huge tree going up to the ceiling in the tank and hood. I kept about a foot of water in the tank with feeders and crayfish. I miss that setup.

I think I see what you're trying to do... I would keep things as simple as possible. You can use light defuser/egg crate panels to form steep ramps of just sand or small gravel without all the glueing of things. The egg crate will pretty much hold back the wall of gravel or sand, allowing a nice deep section of water.

 

[The Dark Knight]

spiff44-

I hadn't even thought of that- nor had it occurred to me that eggcrates could hold back all of that sand and gravel. I'm not 100% sure which I'm going to use yet, although I'm kind of looking for that muddy mix you'd find in rivers and lakes, so probably a mixture of sand and dirt.

Do I have to worry about small fish or paws getting stuck under the eggcrates? Also does this result in oddly shaped substrate such as those representing small squares?

Thanks everyone for helping me out

 

[spiff44]

Nah, it shouldn't cause any problems. Especially if you keep it covered.. if anything, any plastic edges that show through the substrate would be like little steps. You might have scoop onto the slope a couple times a week to keep it covered..no biggie really.

 

[The Dark Knight]

spiff44-

Ah, alright then. That'll definitely be something I do then. Might even be good for the plants I have in there, to give their roots something to grab onto that is (especially if I decide I want something planted on that bank *cough* *cough* lucky bamboo *cough* *cough*).

OK, so now that I've had a bit more time to do research and I've been given some really nice advice from several different forums, I have a better idea of what I want and how I'm going to accomplish it. I'll just run that by you folk just so that I can get some helpful criticism.

As far as my sealant goes, I think I'm going to experiment with both pool plaster and the hydraulic cement to see which works best, probably going to use a mixture of the two. My only real problem with the cement is that it's already insanely heavy on its own, and I'm going to need to seal my entire 3x4x5 enclosure to prevent the wood from rotting with whatever I'm using. I'm going to make a short, homemade stand to hide my filtration and feeder roaches and what not, so I'm not sure if it will be able to stand up to that weight. Plus I move constantly, and while I do plan on making it to where I can dismantle the cage should I need to, it's still not an ideal situation. I'm not sure if pool plaster will be any better regarding weight, but I'm going to stop by home depot this weekend and do some testing with both the cement and a home-made batch of plaster. I still plan on using the cement, regardless of the weight, for my foam rocks and such.

The substrate will be composed of a mixture of top soil and sand, simply because I like the look of it and I heard it does wonders for your plants. I plan on making a biotope of the south east asian rainforests (with the exception of the lucky bamboo) so that I don't introduce foreign diseases that my animals aren't adapted to handle through non-asian fish. My plan for flora stock goes as follows: water sprite, Hygrophila, Cryptocoryne, lucky bamboo (or any asian, aquatic-loving bamboo I can find) and Blyxia Japonica. As far as fish, I'm planning on a red tail shark, a school of zebra danios, black khuli loach, and lastly another school of harlequin rasboras. Trying to avoid anything that's slow-moving, fragile, susceptible to stress, and not too keen on the whole "hiding" concept because than all it is a snack for the dragon. I'm a little sketchy on the loach in case it's a little more deliberate in its movements than I'd like, but it's nocturnal and supposed to hide during the day according to what I've read, so compare that to a diurnal lizard and I think I might be able to get away with it (if any of you think differently, please state so. I don't want to get a fish that won't be able to hold its own). Also planning on adding a few invertebrates in there, such as a Singapore Flower Shrimp and a Gold Rabbit Snail or two (most inverts will go under the tank though, and you'll see why in a minute).

As far as the aquascape goes, I'm going to incorporate a bunch of caves and such into the rockwork that the dragon's head can't fit into so that the fish can easily get away when the dragon decides to get his feet wet. I'm also going to cement a bunch of driftwood in place so that I have a stable perch for the dragon, and some more hiding opportunities for the fish. Not to mention the plants will provide protection for some, but I'd prefer to not give my dragon a reason to go poking around in my plants and hope to discourage this with some better hiding spots.

For filtration, I plan on having one of those flexible pvc pipes feed water directly from my aquarium and into a canister filter below that will utilize chemical, mechanical, and biological filtration. The filter will then feed water into one of those shallow, 55 qt Rubbermaid containers with a bounty of plants to help with biological filtration as well as adding oxygen into the water. I plan on having ghost shrimp down there as well as a freshwater clam to help serve the role as a clean up crew. An assassin snail or two will keep the plants clear of any unwanted pests that won't mind making a meal out of my plants. I'll use one of my spare compact fluorescents to light it if that's OK (those are known to be harmful for reptiles, hence why I haven't used the ones that I have. Are they OK for plants and those inverts though?). I'll use a water pump to push clean water back into my aquarium.

That's basically it. Also the water area is going to be larger (basically a 4x2x1 foot box with the same slopey shore as the ledge jutting out as depicted in my first post, will be a foam rock ledge suspended over the water). I feel really naive with all of these plans and such, but some constructive feedback from those of you who stopped to read this would really be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[spiff44]

Sounds pretty cool. Here is a picture of one of the cooler turtle tanks that I have seen:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/attachments/slide28-jpg.1067803/

You can probably get some cool ideas from it. I like the idea of keeping the land section separate from the water..
And using wood ramps in lieu of trying to slope substrate. If I was to focus on lizards.. I would probably build a wood frame enclosure just as big as the aqurium and link them together sort of how this guy did.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Wow that's certainly cool. I'm not much of a turtle person, I prefer my snakes and lizards, but I can certainly appreciate them and their keepers where credit is due, such as now, but I've seen some really cool enclosures before. My personal favorite was when this guy transformed his entire basement into this tropical lagoon sort of habitat where he kept a whole slew of animals, including a bunch of soft-shelled turtles. Unfortunately it seems to be lost in my history, but if I find it I'll be sure to link you the thread. It really is stunning.

It's certainly cool, but I like the slope better simply because you wouldn't see wooden slopes in nature. I like to take away a slice of nature and place them in my enclosures whenever I make a display cage, and load up on the natural topography and layout of the area(s) where the animal naturally occur. It gives you a certain sense of pride, and then especially for wild-caught specimens I think it makes them more comfortable.

I do, however, like the land area as it's entirely segmented off from the water. It gives it a nice, clean feeling for me that's satisfying to look at. I can't exactly replicate that more than placing an acrylic sheet in the substrate as it's not space-efficient for a three foot semi-aquatic, aboreal lizard. It does, however, give me an idea that would be super interesting to do in the dry area, although I'm not so sure how I'd do it.

I have to be careful about all of that glass though like he did, so I can't make the wood frame and fill it in. They don't quite grasp the concept of "I can see through it but I can't go through it" and it leads them to rubbing their snouts raw trying to get out which can get pretty bad.

http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/snout.htm

Hence why it'll be in my better interest of not having more than one wall of glass, although I still have to be careful about that.