Imperial Line Festae
- Thread starter oriqua
- Start date
- Status
I've decided to call mine the "MAJESTIC SUPER RED BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSES" line
Hopefully I might get a Majestic Super Red Better than anyone elses line spawning soon lol... I'm only joking... I'll take a Wild Caught line anyday. Not interested in PYRO FESTAE
I have some actual questions about all this that I hope will elevate the discussion.
1. I know all about "F0" being a wild caught fish. And F1 is not quite as "good", and F2 is less, and so on. But does F1 and F2 mean inbred fish--children of 2 parents interbreeding? If I have 2 F0 fish, breed them together at my house, those offspring are still F0 -- but nobody would say my 2 WC F0 parents' offspring bred in a tank in my house are F0, too. Everybody would call them "F1", or "Captive Bred"? Why? The offspring are every bit as "unrelated" as they would have been if they'd hatched in a river 3 months before they were caught.
2. If you go to Ecuador, get in a canoe with a cast net, and catch 20 Festae out of a river, you don't really know that you've caught 20 unrelated fish. You very possibly could have caught 20 siblings. But every one of you would call those fish F0, right?
3. And this is a BIG one. How much inbreeding can a fish REALLY take before having genetic problems in the offspring? And don't be too hasty with this everyone. Fish are not people, they're not mammals, they're not even birds. I'm not SURE about this, but I think fish are probably even genetically "simpler" than land reptiles like snakes. They have evolved over long periods in very small bodies of water, with very little genetic variance introduced, and I THINK they can do just fine with a lot more "inbreeding" than we would all think.
I'm not a geneticist, but I think we all have assumptions about fish breeding based on what we think is proper genetic diversity with dogs and people--and that is probably not at all appropriate for fish. And I think we all make way more out of the whole "F0, F1, F2" thing than we should.
As for the lineage of these fish, I have actually been considering some Festae. And I would consider some Imperial Line Festae if I had MUCH more detail about the breeding program.
It would have been nice to see more detailed information about the breeding program and the lineage of these fish somewhere in the 50 plus posts.
1. I know all about "F0" being a wild caught fish. And F1 is not quite as "good", and F2 is less, and so on. But does F1 and F2 mean inbred fish--children of 2 parents interbreeding? If I have 2 F0 fish, breed them together at my house, those offspring are still F0 -- but nobody would say my 2 WC F0 parents' offspring bred in a tank in my house are F0, too. Everybody would call them "F1", or "Captive Bred"? Why? The offspring are every bit as "unrelated" as they would have been if they'd hatched in a river 3 months before they were caught.
2. If you go to Ecuador, get in a canoe with a cast net, and catch 20 Festae out of a river, you don't really know that you've caught 20 unrelated fish. You very possibly could have caught 20 siblings. But every one of you would call those fish F0, right?
3. And this is a BIG one. How much inbreeding can a fish REALLY take before having genetic problems in the offspring? And don't be too hasty with this everyone. Fish are not people, they're not mammals, they're not even birds. I'm not SURE about this, but I think fish are probably even genetically "simpler" than land reptiles like snakes. They have evolved over long periods in very small bodies of water, with very little genetic variance introduced, and I THINK they can do just fine with a lot more "inbreeding" than we would all think.
I'm not a geneticist, but I think we all have assumptions about fish breeding based on what we think is proper genetic diversity with dogs and people--and that is probably not at all appropriate for fish. And I think we all make way more out of the whole "F0, F1, F2" thing than we should.
As for the lineage of these fish, I have actually been considering some Festae. And I would consider some Imperial Line Festae if I had MUCH more detail about the breeding program.
It would have been nice to see more detailed information about the breeding program and the lineage of these fish somewhere in the 50 plus posts.
You are quite right about fish being related.
Its not really a problem for several generations.
Eventually colours will become more muted until some new blood is added.A good example are shop bought meeki.They are very washed out looking when compared to close to wild stock.
These flaws take many generations and related fish produce perfectly healthy fry for a lot longer than most if us imagine.
The f0 f1 f2 thing is just how close the generation is to wild parents.
F0 wild caught F1 their offspring and so on,
More often than not they will be related.
Its not really a problem for several generations.
Eventually colours will become more muted until some new blood is added.A good example are shop bought meeki.They are very washed out looking when compared to close to wild stock.
These flaws take many generations and related fish produce perfectly healthy fry for a lot longer than most if us imagine.
The f0 f1 f2 thing is just how close the generation is to wild parents.
F0 wild caught F1 their offspring and so on,
More often than not they will be related.
F0 is wild caught F1 would be the offspring of F0 and so on.
No way to know they wouldn't be related, but
duanes
has made some very compelling posts that would leave me to believe it unlikely. It would depend though, if your catching adults it's different from catching juveniles.
3. Quite a lot of inbreeding is required to see noticeable increase in fry with deformity. I think it would go up by a neglidgeable % for quite some time for cichlids. Someone posted about convicts they've let inbreed for quite some time and didn't notice a big difference but I can't dig it up or remember who currently.
The main concern with cichlids is that they can dull down each generation. Mainly because if you sell F1 fry people will buy them before seeing them develop, so if I get two ugly F1s cause all the pretty ones were bought, then bred them and sold all my F2 fry there will be a noticeable downward shift in qualoty because most people aren't doing nature's job of killing off the ugly ones. In the wild color attracts the hunnies, in the glass box they will take whatever is provided. Sourcing F1 or F2 from quality fish is more difficult than getting F0s sometimes. With line bred fish they are usually removed from F0 by a magnitude that makes it not relevant.
No way to know they wouldn't be related, but
duanes
has made some very compelling posts that would leave me to believe it unlikely. It would depend though, if your catching adults it's different from catching juveniles. 3. Quite a lot of inbreeding is required to see noticeable increase in fry with deformity. I think it would go up by a neglidgeable % for quite some time for cichlids. Someone posted about convicts they've let inbreed for quite some time and didn't notice a big difference but I can't dig it up or remember who currently.
The main concern with cichlids is that they can dull down each generation. Mainly because if you sell F1 fry people will buy them before seeing them develop, so if I get two ugly F1s cause all the pretty ones were bought, then bred them and sold all my F2 fry there will be a noticeable downward shift in qualoty because most people aren't doing nature's job of killing off the ugly ones. In the wild color attracts the hunnies, in the glass box they will take whatever is provided. Sourcing F1 or F2 from quality fish is more difficult than getting F0s sometimes. With line bred fish they are usually removed from F0 by a magnitude that makes it not relevant.
The bit I don't get is line breed fish normally look different from the wild strain for instance red Oscar's more red then the Peruvian oscars that they where breed from. The festae the op has are nice but look like most other festae and I don't know what trait he is looking to breed into them so at the moment there not imperial festae there just festae
This **** is what is wrong with our society. If you don't like his fish or the name he chooses to call them then DONT BUY IT... why do we have to belittle and hate on others that **** don't affect you. Does his imperial line feastae somehow make your wife less happy with you?
If he does not want people to comment on his fish or the name he has given them then don't post them on this forum, and I wasn't nasty about his fish. The other thing wrong with society is you cannot disagree with anyone these days with out somebody getting all worked up
- Status
