Pecto ball pythons and the ethics of keeping reptiles... etc

elevatethis;1445611; said:

Handwashing is a must, but I promise you that you have no greater risk of contracting salmonella bacteria from a snake than you do from your kitchen counter. That's a very long-standing myth surrounding the reptile hobby that has been proven wrong long ago.

If he likes pythons, like earlier posts suggested, I suggest a Ball Python all the way! I'm pretty biased though, I have about 20 of them....definitely my favorite snake by far.

Just make sure you a get a healthy CAPTIVE bred animal from a reputable breeder. That basically eliminates PETCO from your list of sources, they sell imported ball pythons exclusively.

I can probably help you find a good breeder local to you so PM me if you're interested.

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The salmonella myth started with baby turtles being kept in horrid conditions. This led to the theory that reptiles carry the disease which of course isn't true.
I'm curious of your statement regarding Petco. How do you know they carry wild caught Ball Pythons exclusively? I find this difficult to believe considering the volumes of snakes they sell.

elevatethis;1445792; said:

You answered your own question right there. If Petco were to buy Captive Bred ball pythons, they'd have to buy from many different distributors, which isn't the most efficient thing for a company to do that has such a large supply chain.

Petco buys captive hatched ball pythons, meaning ball pythons that hatch from eggs collected in the wild and then incubated at various ranches in Ghana, Togo, and Benin, then exported to the US or other places for sale. Sometimes these are also called "farmed" ball pythons.

How do I know? I personally know one of the importers that sells to one of their distributors. Petco buys these farmed ball pythons for $5 a piece and sells them for $60. Not a bad markup for an imported animal!

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Paragraph #1: I come here to get away from business discussions. I have a BA in Business, I'll assume you do too. Lets never go there again...

Paragraph #2: This is good info. I think you should have used the term "Farm raised" rather than the "Wild caught" description but I see you edited your initial post. This method probably does make the most sense for a large scale operation.

Paragraph #3: Yup, no doubt they pay $5 but don't forget they need to make money. I used to show customers my wholesale fish costs and they would be miffed that a .22 fish was being sold for 2.99. Once I explained that after operating expenses (and 25% loss due to death), the price made sense.
I know you are into "Breeders" for lack of a better term but it's not fair to assume one of your friend's snakes are somehow "Better" than a Petco snake. I've seen Ball Pythons for $29 at Petco. I think it would be foolish to pay more for a "Better" snake but this is just my opinion.

elevatethis;1445891; said:

Um, sorry?



Should have clarified!



I thought you didn't want to talk business? Of course they want to make money...buy low...sell high...too bad if the animal suffers along the way...

Maybe I don't consider Captive bred "better," but I do think the fact that a snake that hasn't changed hands 10 times, shipped across an ocean and a country, and *MAYBE* been fed and watered once or twice along the way, makes it hard to swallow that a captive bred animal that goes directly from Breeder to Buyer isn't any better than that captive hatched ball python Petco....but don't take my word for it!

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Ah, but as a reptile enthusiast you can't have it both ways!
You want the animals cared for but participate in a hobby that is, at best, not good for the animals in general.
The sad truth is the percentage of animals sold in pet shops will die long before their time regardless of where they came from. The nicest thing you can do for reptiles is to convince everyone NOT to buy them at all. Sounds crazy I know but really, it's the only way to solve the problem.
Until the breeders are taking their snakes directly to Petco stores and personally depositing them in to display tanks, there will be many hands handling them.
Breeder popularity cropped up as laws pertaining to wild animal imports got more and more strict. I have my own opinions regarding the garden reptile breeders but they aren't exactly positive.

elevatethis;1445967; said:

Are you serious? Do you realize that this is a web-site related to keeping animals? Do you keep any animals yourself? I disagree with that statement wholeheartedly and I think you just opened a whole new can of worms that probably shouldn't be discussed any further if things are to remain calm, lol...

I heard that statement once before from a PETA activist. 'Nuff said.

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Oh, so to participate on this forum I have to be delusional and pretend that these problems don't exist?
Yes, I keep animals. 2 dogs, 2 cats, 3 snapping turtles, 2 RES, Dumeril's Boa, Ball Python, 72 G bowfront with Chocolate Cichlids and Aquidens Mertae. I managed full line pet shops for 12 years. Started when I was 12 years old actually.
So, this is the wrong place to bring this up, huh?
Take a look at Craigslist for a moment:
Burmese Python for sale, 6'. Translation: Cute as a baby but I had no idea they got that big and lived that long!
RES for sale: Translation: Cute as a baby but I had no idea they got that big and lived that long.
For sale: Cali King snake. Translation: Cute as a baby but I had no idea they got that big and lived that long.
The dog and cat ads are even sadder.
I absolutely, 100% stand by what I said: If you really care about reptiles you will realize most will not live as long as they are capable of and encouraging others to move along rather than buy something they aren't prepared for is the best option for the reptile in question.
I understand this is radical thinking.
And another thing...
The internet has spawned some serious BS and it's disturbing to see. People lining up to pay $400 for a snake with a different color variation.
This is the typical life of a Boa constrictor:
Cute baby. Pastel; very rare. Proven blood line-$299 + shipping. Available now!
2 years later: Wow, snake is 4'. I can't afford to buy a larger tank; better sell him. I'll ask for $500 because he must be worth that much. 6 months later the Boa ends up in a reptile store or pet shop.
1 year later: hey, he's like 5' now. BREEDER SIZE! I'll sell him for $500.
The breeders line up to talk him down by thelling the dude the Boa is worthless...
1 year later: For sale: Cute baby Boa's, Pastel-very rare....
The timeline is off but you get the idea...
Believe it or not, i'm not arguing at all but i'll be damned if i'm going to censure my opinion because it may not be popular. Obviously, the membership here cares about their pets but each one has a story to tell about some friend or aquaintence with a 4'snake in a 10 gallon, 12' Oscar is a 10 gallon or 60 Hamsters (Wow, males and females have babies?) in a 10 gallon.
I worked with reptiles when Savanah's came in caked with African mud and infested in ticks. I remember wild cought Corns and Yellow Napes coming in that spoke Spanish (After entering the country illegally in a 72 Pinto's hub cap). Current laws have helped wild animals avoid the pet trade but breeders have picked up the slack big time.
Still think i'm nuts?
OK, answer me this: How many $15 mail order snapping turtles will live past 5 years?

elevatethis;1446204; said:

I guess by Brooklyn's thinking, we should advise the original poster not to get a snake at all because they aren't going to care for it properly, lol....

It's very unfortunate that many reptiles and other animals are mistreated, but I don't agree with the very PETA-ish line of thinking that because some people mistreat animals, we ALL shouldn't keep them.

The original poster asked what would be a good starter snake...responding with "don't get one", or "if you really care about animals you won't buy one" doesn't do anything to help the original poster out.

And to reply to the comment about high prices for high end reptiles...wouldn't an expensive price tag be all the more reson for someone to care, as opposed to the $15 turtles that, I agree, and often time treated as disposable pets?

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If you read my post, you certainly didn't understand it!
Please point out where I implied "We all shouldn't keep them".
My response to the original poster was and still is: Ball Python.