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  1. #1
    Stingray King Miles's Avatar
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    HOLE IN THE HEAD + THIAMINASE - What you need to know!!!!!!

    Okay, let's talk about Hole in the Head.

    What causes it?
    - You will hear a million different theories - ready to hear mine? years of collective research and gathering opinions with an open mind has led me to these conclusions..


    Simply put, 'Hole in the Head' and 'Lateral Line Erosion' are caused from a nutrient deficiency.


    I don't see the word THIAMIASE come up very much - when it is a very important enzyme that anyone with PREDATORY FISH should be aware of..


    1) Thiaminase
    Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1). Goldfish & Rosie Reds (and most cyprinidae) contain a very high level of thiaminase. Thiamine deficiency can lead to a myriad of problems including neurodegeneration, wasting and death. Tissue Distribution in many living animals is dependent on Thiamine levels. Once Thiaminase is ingested, it has very long lasting effects and does not purge itself from the body. Lack of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) is the primary reason why fish would not be able to properly produce fleshy tissue.

    List of fish containing thiaminase:
    http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Art...Thiaminase.htm


    2) Hexamita
    The internal form of Hexamita are flagellated protozoans found in the gastrointestinal tract of a wide variety of fishes. It is believed that malabsorption of minerals and vitamins from the intestine due to heavy concentrations the Hexamita parasite makes the fish become nutrient deficient. Important Vitamins such as Vitamin B1, Vitamin K, and Vitamin C will all be absorbed by internal parasites before the fish can properly use and distribute them. This leads to severe malnutrition.


    3) Water Quality
    Lack of water changes and heavy amounts of 'bioload' make the nutrient level of the water very low. Nitrifying bacteria consumes vitamins and nutrients that are within the water. Larger, Robust fish that produce large amounts of waste are going to have a larger bioload, thus more nitrifying bacteria to consume nutrients. Poorly maintained filtration systems with large amounts of detritus will also create excessive amounts of nitrifying bacteria. Lack of frequent water changes allows the nutrient levels to become quickly depleted in these scenarios.

    Note: Just because your Nitrates are low and your water looks clean, does not mean your fish do not benefit from replenishing nutrients through small frequent water changes.


    4) Osmosis
    Lack of water changes also compromises the osmoregulation system of the fish. When a fish can not adequately perform osmosis by taking in solids around them, not only are they under constant stress from this, but they are not taking in the nutrients they need. Lack of nutrients from osmosis prohibits the body's ability to produce fleshy tissue. Many hobbyist use vitamin/mineral pyramid blocks to supplement their fish. Frequent water changes also replenish the nutrient needed to aid in osmosis.

    Note: Frequent water changes cause fish to grow faster and healthier, as they need a wide array of Micro and Macro nutrient in order to supplement the osmosis system. Only in domestic aquaria do fish encounter 'osmoregulatory compromise' - in which these nutrient levels become unbalanced - thus the vital need for water changes.

    Note2: "Aquarium Salt" is just a quick boost in dissolved solids in the water, which will temporarily aid in the osmosis system of most fish. However, some fish are put under osmotic pressure from these solids, making it detrimental. It also stimulates slime coat and boosts electrolytes. Although a well-known 'cure-all tonic', salt can be good and bad for different reasons, however it does not supplement the need for the proper nutrients needed in osmosis.


    5) Nutrition

    Poor quality foods will make your fish nutrient deprived. Using cheap brands such as Wardley that is full of fillers and byproducts, does not provide the vitamin and nutrient content that large predatory fish need to re-create their diet in the wild. Low quality foods will also create more physical waste due to fillers, thus creating more nitrifying bacteria.(see above) Most vitamins and nutrients are water soluble, but people mistakingly feed frozen and flake foods. These foods are low in nutrient content. It is better to feed pelletized food, that can be ingested like a pill, in order for the fish to absorb the maximum amount of possible vitamin content. High quality super premium foods, although expensive, are well worth their nutrient content - especially to large carnivorous predators.


    So, in summary - In order to prevent hold in the head..

    1) No Feeder Fish
    2) No Internal Parasites
    3) Perform Frequent Water Changes
    4) Perform More Frequent Water Changes
    5) Feed High Quality Pelletized Foods


    PS. Secondary Bacterial Infections from Hole in the Head are not the cause of hole in the head nor have anything to do with the nutrition issue or deterioration of fleshy tissue.


    I hope someone takes something good from this post I have been pondering these thoughts for a long time and thought I would share - Hopefully someone else has some good stuff to share.. but PLEASE do your research before you start quoting an outdated website from the early 90s Maybe someone else has some super concrete scientific links or facts about HoleInTheHead that I am unaware of?

    -Miles
    Last edited by Miles; 08-28-2008 at 4:32 AM.





  2. #2
    The Indian Catfish Keeper headbanger_jib's Avatar
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    nice thread miles
    TITLE --->"pics of hookers for the first time !!!!!"

    comments:
    1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8KarmaSF;2310384;
    Love the fish, congrats on having the worst title thread in MFK history...lol
    VISIT here to get a piece of me --> http://headbangerjib.mybrute.com



  3. #3
    Viviendo la vida loca! Lupin's Avatar
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    Good thread, Miles! I've been pondering on the idea of gathering as much data as possible of each known illness for the convenience of members across MAN. I already have the list but I needed to revise it to provide more details. This will prove very helpful indeed.
    I stand in awe of my body.
    Quote Originally Posted by aclockworkorange
    And lupin doesn't want to do that... He's too busy dancing with his iPod on full blast in a purple room.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddball
    I hope you don't later decide to post your other meals, daily events, and bathroom reports.



  4. #4
    More Of what you NEED to KNOW!! About your Frozen shrimp and Other Fish that Also contain this

    Just so no one is misled by the feeding of gold fish vs. frozen shrimp or other shell fish such as Clams (specimen used) As frozen is staed in the abvoe link from Miles.


    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/196/1/289

    Let no one confuse you.. If you are feeding live or dead you should be implimentint Vitamins.. To not is to be NAIVE.

    Cornwell is a good search for thiaminase info as well... This is one of my all time favorite topics
    Last edited by Tongue33; 08-28-2008 at 5:25 AM.
    I feel the Revival!
    Cichla: C. Monoculus Breeding Pair- C.Monoculus Juviniles-C. Orinocensis Juviniles-C. Orinoscensis 4"- C. Kelberi 4-6" And C. Piquiti (Azul)

    I dream of Intermedia



  5. #5
    Stingray King Miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tongue33;2127442;
    More Of what you NEED to KNOW!! About your Frozen shrimp and Other Fish that Also contain this

    Just so no one is misled by the feeding of gold fish vs. frozen shrimp or other shell fish such as Clams (specimen used)


    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/196/1/289

    Let no one confuse you.. If you are feeding live or dead you should be implimentint Vitamins.. To not is to be NAIVE.

    Cornwell is a good search for thiaminase info as well...
    Great Stuff!!



  6. #6
    Stingray King Miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tongue33;2127453;
    Man I love this topic
    I think Earthworms and Pelletized is the way to go.. what do you think?



  7. #7
    Dorado Bluey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles;2127358;
    Okay, let's talk about Hole in the Head.

    What causes it?
    - You will hear a million different theories - ready to hear mine? years of collective research and gathering opinions with an open mind has led me to these conclusions..


    Simply put, 'Hole in the Head' and 'Lateral Line Erosion' are caused from a nutrient deficiency.

    I don't see the word THIAMIASE come up very much - when it is a very important enzyme that anyone with PREDATORY FISH should be aware of..


    1) Thiaminase
    Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1). Goldfish & Rosie Reds (and most cyprinidae) contain a very high level of thiaminase. Thiamine deficiency can lead to a myriad of problems including neurodegeneration, wasting and death. Tissue Distribution in many living animals is dependent on Thiamine levels. Once Thiaminase is ingested, it has very long lasting effects and does not purge itself from the body. Lack of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) is the primary reason why fish would not be able to properly produce fleshy tissue.

    List of fish containing thiaminase:
    http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Art...Thiaminase.htm


    2) Hexamita
    The internal form of Hexamita are flagellated protozoans found in the gastrointestinal tract of a wide variety of fishes. It is believed that malabsorption of minerals and vitamins from the intestine due to heavy concentrations the Hexamita parasite makes the fish become nutrient deficient. Important Vitamins such as Vitamin B1, Vitamin K, and Vitamin C will all be absorbed by internal parasites before the fish can properly use and distribute them. This leads to severe malnutrition.


    3) Water Quality
    Lack of water changes and heavy amounts of 'bioload' make the nutrient level of the water very low. Nitrifying bacteria consumes vitamins and nutrients that are within the water. Larger, Robust fish that produce large amounts of waste are going to have a larger bioload, thus more nitrifying bacteria to consume nutrients. Poorly maintained filtration systems with large amounts of detritus will also create excessive amounts of nitrifying bacteria. Lack of frequent water changes allows the nutrient levels to become quickly depleted in these scenarios.

    Note: Just because your Nitrates are low and your water looks clean, does not mean your fish do not benefit from replenishing nutrients through small frequent water changes.


    4) Osmosis
    Lack of water changes also compromises the osmoregulation system of the fish. When a fish can not adequately perform osmosis by taking in solids around them, not only are they under constant stress from this, but they are not taking in the nutrients they need. Lack of nutrients from osmosis prohibits the body's ability to produce fleshy tissue. Many hobbyist use vitamin/mineral pyramid blocks to supplement their fish. Frequent water changes also replenish the nutrient needed to aid in osmosis.

    Note: Frequent water changes cause fish to grow faster and healthier, as they need a wide array of Micro and Macro nutrient in order to supplement the osmosis system. Only in domestic aquaria do fish encounter 'osmoregulatory compromise' - in which these nutrient levels become unbalanced - thus the vital need for water changes.

    Note2: "Aquarium Salt" is just a quick boost in dissolved solids in the water, which will temporarily aid in the osmosis system of most fish. However, some fish are put under osmotic pressure from these solids, making it detrimental. It also stimulates slime coat and boosts electrolytes. Although a well-known 'cure-all tonic', salt can be good and bad for different reasons, however it does not supplement the need for the proper nutrients needed in osmosis.


    5) Nutrition
    Poor quality foods will make your fish nutrient deprived. Using cheap brands such as Wardley that is full of fillers and byproducts, does not provide the vitamin and nutrient content that large predatory fish need to re-create their diet in the wild. Low quality foods will also create more physical waste due to fillers, thus creating more nitrifying bacteria.(see above) Most vitamins and nutrients are water soluble, but people mistakingly feed frozen and flake foods. These foods are low in nutrient content. It is better to feed pelletized food, that can be ingested like a pill, in order for the fish to absorb the maximum amount of possible vitamin content. High quality super premium foods, although expensive, are well worth their nutrient content - especially to large carnivorous predators.


    So, in summary - In order to prevent hold in the head..

    1) No Feeder Fish
    2) No Internal Parasites
    3) Perform Frequent Water Changes
    4) Perform More Frequent Water Changes
    5) Feed High Quality Pelletized Foods


    PS. Secondary Bacterial Infections from Hole in the Head are not the cause of hole in the head nor have anything to do with the nutrition issue or deterioration of fleshy tissue.


    I hope someone takes something good from this post I have been pondering these thoughts for a long time and thought I would share - Hopefully someone else has some good stuff to share.. but PLEASE do your research before you start quoting an outdated website from the early 90s Maybe someone else has some super concrete scientific links or facts about HoleInTheHead that I am unaware of?

    -Miles
    That is an awesome post , but instead of saying "no live feeders" shoulden't you say "don't feed live fish with hight levels of Thiaminase " for years over here we have been telling people not to feed goldfish because of the B1 killer in them , but alas no one cares/wnats to know.


    In some countrys its easy to get farm reared feeders breed just to feed to larger aquarium fish. I am prety sure most of our native fish ( I am in Australia) are lacking Thiaminase.

    Is there another reason you guys don't like feeding live over there? Or is it just the parasite thing?


    Cheers



  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Miles;2127455;
    I think Earthworms and Pelletized is the way to go.. what do you think?
    I think that is good.. Worms have very high protien content of easily digested protiens for aquatic species.

    THOUGH..I think it depends on the fish as well.. I love worms for most CA cichlids for example.. And Grasshoppers too..

    But my piscivores I feed fish and aquatic based foods.. And for along time it was guppies then goldfish... Till I got into feeding Piscivores Cichlids.

    I have experimented with this some and have found that Worms were and are AWESOME..

    Mainly cause they seemed more beneficial... As they stayed in the stomach longer. Took longer to digest.. By a minimum of 4-6 hours longer than the same amount of Guppies or goldfish by volume.

    I also fed my worms NLS pellets..

    Still this proved to be in efficient when it came to growth.

    I foudn that feeding live fish my piscivores grew at about 5 times the pace of feeding worms.

    I also did a similar study with Pellets and sticks.

    I had some Piscs that readily took those...and in the same tank 2 that would not touch them..

    The fish that only ate live fish grew at twice the rate as those that ate pellets then followed with a fish. Stomaches were all the same after feeding..

    I did not write any of this down.. But I have had people come over and I have spoken with them about this.. As this is a topic I am invested to as well.

    Tug
    Itsalmosteasy
    Bstuver
    CargR

    And some other locals that are members here and a bunch of locals that are not.

    The two main pellets I used were

    NLS
    &
    Azoo Arow sticks.

    Other non live was smelt. The Live eaters would not touch this either..But I have an opinion on the difference of this vs. Live as well

    Now I struggled with the first fish I did this with.. They came with a weird fungus and disease I thought I cleared up.. Then one fish Spit up a half eatin smelt and ended all but one of its species in just a few hours..


    I like the worm suggestion.. I think however there is soemthing to be said about a more naturally ready available food source for fish such as Piscivores.

    So what do you think about this?
    I feel the Revival!
    Cichla: C. Monoculus Breeding Pair- C.Monoculus Juviniles-C. Orinocensis Juviniles-C. Orinoscensis 4"- C. Kelberi 4-6" And C. Piquiti (Azul)

    I dream of Intermedia



  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey;2127460;




    Is there another reason you guys don't like feeding live over there? Or is it just the parasite thing?


    Cheers

    Parasites are less now than ever over here.. Still a risk... But not like in the past.

    Many do not like live, as they do not believe it is humane.. and are mentally disturbed by watching such actions. I think that plays a larger part than Thiaminase or parasites for MOST If you notice the fight isn't made by most that, Thiaminase!! Thiaminase!! or even parasites anymore..

    You will find that most arguements today are not ones that contain parasites or thiaminase as their main weapon More like the icing on the cake. That they throw in with blatent haha.... Then you question their knowledge on the matter and they shoot blanks Some actually know a little.. But really only enough to get past the initial "Prove it"

    You will find that a few (that have actually researched these things) Will point only them out as they are more openminded. They could really care less if you are feeding live.. And more of what live you are feeding... And soe of these would rather not watch you feed live.. But that is not their main arguement.

    They have actually given thought to why certain live foods are not good.. Such as what Miles posted so far.
    I feel the Revival!
    Cichla: C. Monoculus Breeding Pair- C.Monoculus Juviniles-C. Orinocensis Juviniles-C. Orinoscensis 4"- C. Kelberi 4-6" And C. Piquiti (Azul)

    I dream of Intermedia



  10. #10
    Stingray King Miles's Avatar
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    This is my theory as to why many Asian fishkeepers have better quality looking fish in some cases. (ie: dropeye in aros) .. they use feeders like dojo loaches, frogs, and snakeheads.. over here we use goldfish



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