Captive Breeding - 2 likely Scenarios

Miles

Stingray King
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Okay ... So I just wanted to share a thought I had that is perhaps a spinoff of the 'Hybridizing Irresponsible' thread.

The captive breeding projects around the world can lead down two paths.. I am going to use Angelfish and Discus as an example.

When wild Angelfish first busted onto the scene, they instantly became a staple in the aquarium hobby. It did not take long for them to become easily bred within captivity, to the point where hobbyist could make a small fortune by setting up a dozen small tanks in their basement and producing angelfish. Sadly, no one really took the time to consider the issue of genetics and what would happen to the Angelfish in the long run.

Now, we have a market full of mutt-like Angelfish.. many with sporadic patterns, blotchy spots, broken bars, poor body structure, etc, etc. It is quite obvious that no one paid a special amount of attention to the genetics, and now most Angelfish are very poor quality in comparison to their wild counterparts (Scalare, Altum) ... However, the VALUE of a Wild-Caught Scalare/Altum has skyrocketed and true angelfish hobbyist know the rarity and value of these wild-caught fish.

on the otherside of the story is Discus..

When Discus first came around, they were notoriously hard to keep as they were very sensitive to new water parameters. After some time and effort people became educated on how to keep, spawn and even breed Discus in captivity. However, Discus had a much higher initial cost/value out of the wild then Angelfish, and much more care was taken into each individual specimen. The breeders really looked closely at selective breeding and introducing wild genetics to keep the strains healthy.

Now, we have a market full of colorful, vibrant, awe-inspiring Discus.. many with distinguished patterns, colorful spots, perfect bars, good body structure, etc, etc.. It was obvious that someone paid a special amount of attention to the genetics, and most captive bred Discus are much more beautiful in comparison to their wild counterparts.. However, the VALUE of Captive-Bred Discus has skyrocketed and true discus hobbyist know the rarity and value of a high quality strain of captive bred Discus..

So what's the point?

Captive Breeding of rays can head into 2 directions.. I believe it will have hints of each scenario.

I think Captive/Selective Breeding for coloration and pattern will eventually flood the market with dozens of wild new varieties with an increased value based on pattern and colors, just like Discus.. However, much like the value of Wild Scalare/Altum, the wild-caught Rays will uphold their value, mainly because of the ban from Brazil.

I think that Ray breeders will be much like Discus breeders in the thought that they will pay attention to genetics and breed rays based on coloration and pattern.. while only 'advanced' hobbyist will be doing most of the large-scale production breeding.. unlike Angelfish, that could be bred and hybridized by anyone.

Possibly, the longer the Ban is in place, the easier it will be to distinguish a pure ray from a captive bred ray. Much like how it is easy to tell a wild-caught Angelfish from a captive-bred Angelfish.

I also feel that rays' long gestation periods and maturation times in comparison to Discus/Angelfish will prolong any sort of genetics issues in the future. We will all be dead and gone before we start seeing the effects of 'guppy' type pool breeding, where we throw a bunch of rays together and watch them produce over and over.. they just take too long to reproduce.

I think rays are much more valued, like Discus.. then say, the value of Angelfish when they became popular. Fish that are less valued (ie: Angelfish, Guppies, Flowerhorns) will have less concerns and care to their genetics, and hobbyists will breed them freely and randomly. Rays have a higher monetary value, require a higher level of knowledge and care, and require any more resources to breed them in the same manner. Basically, low-scale Hobbyists won't be able to influence/ruin the market as much as they did with those lower-valued fish. Ray fanatics are a much more dedicated group of hobbyists, much like Discus keepers/breeders.

With all that being said.. I think that ray breeding will more-so take on the path of Discus breeding rather then Angelfish breeding. I see new variants being produced, with increased value to new variants/strains, but the market will eventually get watered down and older variants will come down in value. Hybrid rays can always make more Hybrid rays, but eventually we will run out of wild-caught rays. I see the wild-caught ones going up in value, much like wild Angelfish.

I don't see the genetics getting weak anytime soon. Rather, genetics become questionable.. Concerns with honest/valid genetics will be the main concern. The more generations away from the Ban, the more of an issue this will be. A certification/microchip program would be a good solution, but even wild-caught rays can have questionable genetics. The further out from the Ban, the more 'false' black rays will be put on the market, thus the rarity value of true wild-caught purebloods will skyrocket - proving that point will be the hard part.

So.. they aren't going to become like Angelfish, Guppies or Flowerhorns because of all this hybridization.. but more like the Discus culture.


Anyone else have thoughts on this? :D :popcorn:
 

rook45

Fire Eel
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Jan 9, 2006
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Eventually the genetic line will go bad just like a carbon copy. Every time something gets copied it loses something that's not seen by us. I've thought about this with the breeding of black rays. Soon we will see some in-breeding going on sometime down the line because there simply aren't many sources that you can get black rays from. In addition to wild blood not being able to obtain the future I think is pretty obvious that the ray may swing the other way toward the angel fish that Miles spoke about. I'm sure the ray pimp Mike will chime in this thread and spread some insight on how this will be prevented from happening.
 

Miles

Stingray King
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It will take a long time :D I bet Mike will continue to look for new resources such as ray swapping with Frank, etc.
 

Onion01

Polypterus
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hmmm, interesting point. I don't know much about rays or their market, but here is my impression. Discus and angels were brought in not only in greater numbers, but also in greater diversity of geography where caught. Even as breeding was taking place, new fish from different places kept the gene pool fresh and diverse. With the scarcity and restrictions of rays, it seems like most of them are coming from the same breeders and importers. The rays in circulation seem to come from a collective, similar gene pool. This will thus, despite the longer breeding times, lead to genetic problems just as quickly as fast breeders like angels and discus.
 

DB junkie

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I think there's no need to worry about the species that aren't banned..... Obviously fresh wild caught rays are brought in..... Unless they eventually all get banned.........
 

T1KARMANN

Giant Snakehead
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Sep 19, 2005
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things that are totally different from your examples with angel fish and discus

when angels/discus breed they have 100s of young breeding rays about 7 pups

we can still get hold of wild discus or angels

i don't know about in the US but the gene pool is very small hear in the UK 4 x breeders of p14 max and 2 of pearl i know of

as stated in the other thread when people get a chance to buy pups most times they will buy them from the same breeder breeding brother with sister which will cause problems

buy saying that genetic problems are a way of is like saying global warming is a long way off lets not do something about it now
 

Dex_evo

Feeder Fish
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Jun 3, 2008
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I'm maybe miles out here but is it not something like 50 separate bloodlines that are required to support a species and keep it pure forever without having to start incrossing?

I personaly feel that incrossing on the short term will cause no major damage so long as there is enough outcrosses to maintain quality.

With most pedigree animals incrossing is classed as nothing more than line breeding and is used to enhance desired characteristics. Although long term genetic defects will also become more pronounced. If for every incross that was made the next generation were outcrossed to a new bloodline I can see no fall in the over all quality or heath in the animal.

I feel that quite regular incrossing would be common in the wild yet everyone talks about wild fish as if they are all of unique bloodline
 

T1KARMANN

Giant Snakehead
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OK i don't want to make this come across wrong but i bet reputable breeders are selling males and females from the same parents to the same people and this will continue when they have pups the pups will be sold again to the same person

i had to work dam hard to get a mixed pair and even harder to get 3 rays from different breeders and different blood lines

it would have been soooo much essayer for me to have kept 3 of my own pups and breed from them again

would anyone consider having a baby with their daughter or brother and sister its not right and shouldnt be done

their was a program on TV hear in the UK a few weeks ago that stated most of the Pug dogs can be traced back hear in the UK to 6 dogs and that breed is a mess

the kennel club has since ban the breeding of brother and sister mother and son
 

DB junkie

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I was just thinking this the other night....... How many people do you hear of go and get a "pair" of rays in hopes of breeding them in the future....... But from what I've seen it's not real often that the fact they are brother/sister comes to mind. Well if not tagging them I hope the breeders keep VERY good notes along with pictures...... Cause I can tell you one thing's certain if you have a pond of even 6 rays things could get messed up REAL fast....... Really makes you think...... I'm starting to think that even with a pond holding 6 rays....1 fermale gets knocked up..... father is unknown...... genepool is now screwed after the first pregnancy unless NO pups are kept as breeders.
 

Onion01

Polypterus
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T1KARMANN;2207195; said:
OK i don't want to make this come across wrong but i bet reputable breeders are selling males and females from the same parents to the same people and this will continue when they have pups the pups will be sold again to the same person

i had to work dam hard to get a mixed pair and even harder to get 3 rays from different breeders and different blood lines

it would have been soooo much essayer for me to have kept 3 of my own pups and breed from them again

would anyone consider having a baby with their daughter or brother and sister its not right and shouldnt be done

their was a program on TV hear in the UK a few weeks ago that stated most of the Pug dogs can be traced back hear in the UK to 6 dogs and that breed is a mess

the kennel club has since ban the breeding of brother and sister mother and son
so I was right? :woot:

I realize this is a tall order, but maybe for black and other rare rays a pedigree can be kept. I'm not sure if they do it already, but it would be a step towards monitoring bloodlines
 
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