PROJECT FLOWERHORN Made in NZ: genetics line breeding selective breeding ?s

henward

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jan 25, 2008
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Auckland, New Zealand
as the title says, let me introduce this projec.

Im from NZ, no onehere as i know is selectively breeding FHs.
probably cos market is small.
I am doing this project cos i love FHs - doing it for money is deluded lol im doing it for love baby!

anyways.

I have some questions.
i know that when you breed FHs, eventualy to add colour and traits, cross breeding will need to occur.

What i have avail here are the following.

Parrots
texas cichlids
red devils

to work with. these are relatively common.

i have jaguar cichlids also but i doubt they can be crossed with the FHs.

I have purchased recently (actually 3 days ago) a adult pair of flowerhorns. these are known to breed - currently they are settling, took their first meal today small one, and doing a circular dance and then the female slowly swiims away to her hide hole.
the male approaches her and she comes out, they do the dance and shake and she leaves. nver seen that before.





these arer basic flowerhorns, compared to some of the awesome ones on here. these are all we get! we dont know 100% but we are pretty sure that these two are from the same parents. and are true offspring from two hybrid parents making them FH.

anyways, my questions are this:
Genetics and selective breeding questions.

1: when these two breed. i will grow out the fastest and nicest specimens out of that batch of fry.

Do i breed the two offspring together, to narrow down the traits? And keep doing that with the next batch and so on. OR do i get the best female form that batch - then cross it with the papa FH, one in the pic. ?

2: when you breed fish like this - does the genetics o thw two parents randomly splice and pass on to the offspring? or does one parents generally pass on more trait than the other?
example;
does male give more prediction on the traits or female of the babies?

3: another project to coincide with mine is breeding red devils and texas chiclids together to get a red texas
http://images.suite101.com/536678_com_red_texas.jpg
then we can maybe cross some of those offspring with my flowerhonr babies that are selected with the right dots on the side and colours and then get a purer and refined gene pool.

when breeding the texas and red devil - should we have a male or female red devil and male or female texas?
or does it not matter?

i know males are usually more vibrant and colourful - but females of the same batch of fry, do they contain the same genes roughly but it does not show as much? so in essence, crossing them wit another fish, nd getting males would mean those males benefit from the females genes despite the fact it is not showing too much on that parents female.

i would really appreciate some feedback from experienced breeders.
 

packer43064

Jack Dempsey
MFK Member
Jul 10, 2008
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Ohio
Nice question. I'll be checking on this daily. Also love the pics, their a very nice cherry color.
 

Pomatomus

Piranha
MFK Member
Jul 7, 2009
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Sarasota, FL
I've never bred flowerhorns but everything I know about the different strains came from this website: http://www.flowerhorncraze.com/index.php?showtopic=43104

In regards to your second question, there are four possible genotypes you can obtain from a pair of animals. The ones with the dominant traits will be more common (like a regular JD) and the ones with less dominant traits will be less common (like EBJD). Basically this wikipedia page will explain it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnet_square

I'm not sure about the other two questions, but I know that inbreeding is usually discouraged with most animals. Maybe it's different for hybrids such as flowerhorns.
 

MonsterMinis

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Apr 28, 2009
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I generally "line-bred" my animals. FH may be different but I pick a particular trait I want. and I focus on trying to bring that out threw starting with a particular animal i view as "perfect" for that trait. It has been done in horses for a very long time. You pull mainly from 1 line. but "add" other genetics along the way to keep the genetics diverse enough to avoid a majority of deformities ect you see in many inbreed practices. It's a fine line to dance.

I bred my guppies by getting a batch of fry.. split them by sex.. then get me a male guppy from another blood-line from mine w/ a particular trait I like. IE if my own "line" isn't enough fins .. ect.. Your breeding "in" traits you want to improve the base of your stock. by doing this you will produce many "imperfections" but the longer you do this the purer your strains can get, and the over-all % of nice young to what your standards are. Many breeders set-up 2 or more "lines" and cross them back and forth over generations.

The way I do it is the "poor mans" way.. and I don't want 20 tanks dedicated to guppies to set-up different strains and lines to X.

So to put it in laymens terms.

Breed pair
keep handfull of babies
breed 1 pair of 1st litter babies.
Breed original pair.
keep 1 pair from second litter of babies.
take babies from 1st and 2nd pair. and pair up w/ "new" blood.
take babies from those 2 pairs and pair up.

and you keep doing this picking and choosing only the "best" fish to breed to get the "perfect" fish.

It's like playing Craps.. 60% skill.. gotta know how to play the game.. but 40% luck as to how the dice fall.

Or just enjoy the pair and their offspring you have =D

This is why selective breeding, and most pure bred animals of any kind are so expensive. FH's are a hybrid but to focus and get what you want. it takes years of breeding, and generations more often then not of careful handpicking of what to breed to what.. and a fair share of luck.

GL! Hopefully someone who has bred FH's and selectively breeds them can offer some other ways. maybe short-cuts. But this is a general idea of what it takes to get consistantly solid stock.
 

henward

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jan 25, 2008
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Auckland, New Zealand
yeha, i will read up on the articles above
and keep your input in definately, in fact i copy and pasted it for my scrap book of knowledge:D

no one who breeds them got back to me yet, but i will keep hoping, im not here to steal knowledg3e and take their market lol we breed not for money here, we only have under 4 million people in my country.

this is a long term project, reason is that we have limited fish to keep, if we had many species, woulkd probalby not think of doing this.
but i wnt a project i can really sink my teeth into.
 

e!o!z!

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
May 24, 2005
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The only thing I would add is that you sould keep a few pairs( at least a few of the females) from your first batch and and following batches to get a large gene pool, you do not want your FH to turn out like west virginia lol. Both male and female will provide equal amount of genes.
 

ibz_rg

Feeder Fish
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Jun 4, 2009
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Cincinnati, OH
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I'd say it's possible to breed an FH and a Texas, seeing as Texas' contribute to FH crosses quite frequently.
 

Connor AND Liam

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 20, 2008
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Levin, New Zealnad
Hey
I will be watching this intensly, will you at any point be putting any of teh fry on trademe? I really hope you succed coz we so need some decent looking fh here. Lol i would help you if i had the tank space but unfortunately i don't. In regards to your questions, If you want to make one certain trait more pronounced use line breeding with the specimens that have this trait the best, but with occasional outcrosses. It would be a good idea to have another one or two lines running from the same parents but each line is trying to bring something different out ie. LIne 1: Kok, Line 2: Finnage, Line 3: Colour.
Good luck! :)
 

henward

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jan 25, 2008
1,260
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Auckland, New Zealand
thanks!
been getting good feedback, david an i are in this project together.
we are attempting to basically make this project cost minimal - and purely for the hobby.

babies, not sure, id ont really want to flood the market place with random fh babies. dont like that idea, will see.

right now the female is rreally fat, slightly gone off food, and her tube from her vagina has starting to protrude out slightly more and more the last couple days.
 
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