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  1. #11
    Muskellunge Cakilla's Avatar
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    Anothert awesome project can't wait to see it done
    Cream





  2. #12
    Datnoid Griller's Avatar
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    Polyurethane liner

    I found this comment on poly liners on a 4WD site:

    Well after 3 months of waiting for a call back from Rhino linings I decide to do it my self!!

    I used a product called 'Hippo Liner' itís a 2 part polyurethane mix..... and can be by roller, brush or with a splatter gun between 45 and 60 psi. BTW doesnít come off yr hands thou once it sets so have lots of gloves around!!.
    It appears like a plastics liner but nothing can get under it!! The floor coat is about 2 - 3mm thick and the walls 1 - 2mm. Sanding the tub down and masking it all off sucked big time and took the most time but like all paint jobs the prep is will decide the outcome of the finished job. I highly recommend it!! Price for the kit was about 130 buks so not that expensive!! Compared to 'Rhino Linings' that quoted me almost 800 buks to do the same thing!!!!!! (And they could learn a few things about customer service!!! (in Melbourne anyway) I am not a panel beater or painter so anyone can do it just prep the tub and this stuff will out last any plastic liner!!

    This part sucked!!

    Outcome is great!!!
    They went on to say that it handled massive abuse for 2 years and is still going strong.

    Do you guys know if any polyurethane is toxic?
    Alex the obsessive fish keeper

    Experience: Marine commercial aquiculture, captive breeding programs, South Australian native FW fish, American cichlids, SCUBA diving
    Check out: my 1000L (264gal) Amazon tank photos, submarine game project, and healing business Unlock my life Adelaide



  3. #13
    Datnoid Griller's Avatar
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    Polyurethane liner and silicone

    I was up all night on the net researching polyurethane liners. They seem like a very good idea but there are a few issues. Silicone does not adhere properly to polyurethane so I will have to silicone the glass directly to the steel and then coat over the glass and silicone bead with the liner:
    Big issue is getting silicone to stick.

    One recent builder here used polyurea on a plywood tank. Silicone also does not stick to polyurea. Rhino liner is probably a polyurea blend.

    At any rate, what the builder here on MFK did was to silicone the glass to the bare wood and then have polyurea sprayed over the entire inside, including the first inch or so of the glass and the silicone bead.

    If it were me I'd use a small batch of polyester or epoxy to seal the wood framings where the glass would rest first. Then I would attach the glass to the frame before having the liner sprayed on.

    I probably would also try to find some sort of caulk (not silicone) that the liner would adhere to. Twenty years ago there were some polyurethane caulks that were fish safe that would have worked. I'm not sure what's available nowadays.

    To me that is the risk in this entire concept. I just don't trust the bond between silicone and polyurea, regardless of which one is applied first.
    I had a look at a locally available polyurethane product called Hurculiner. It seems much cheaper than Rhinoliner but must be painted on yourself. I contacted them about my project. They were very helpful and got back to me immediately. This is what they had to say:

    Hi Alex

    Thank you for your interest in Herculiner. The product will certainly line your aquarium, However we only supply black and its proprties are more along the lines of providing a slip free surface and preventing rusting of steel truck beds rather than just a water tight seal. As such it may be more than you need for a water tight barrier. Once dry it is inert and can only be removed or modified by the use of xylene or acetone, neither of which will be present in water. It will present a water tight barrier to clean steel and prevent rust. The manufacturers list lining bait tanks as one of its uses but they have obviously not considered aquariums. You would beed our buddies, 4 kit pack, for a 2 coat application to do the required area.

    I will peruse the product specs re silicone sealant but the product achieves a water tight seal by adhereing to itself, ie it is not just paint it has was very vhigh sheer strength and achieves this by a strong bond between itself. However I am coating a variety of substances with Herculiner to take to a trade show tomorrow. I will paint some over clear silicone sealant as well and place it in water for a day or two and give you my assessment later this week.

    regards


    Barry Jones
    Herculiner Retailers Australia
    Alex the obsessive fish keeper

    Experience: Marine commercial aquiculture, captive breeding programs, South Australian native FW fish, American cichlids, SCUBA diving
    Check out: my 1000L (264gal) Amazon tank photos, submarine game project, and healing business Unlock my life Adelaide



  4. #14
    Muskellunge cvermeulen's Avatar
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    check out MFK User "Red O". he built a tank using pulyurea and painting it over the silicone onto the glass.

    Also check out the product specs on some of Dow Corning and Henkel corp's advanced adhesives. Dow 832 in particular bonds to many plastics that regular silicone will not. Also while it is not recommended for aquarium use by Dow, I have used it without issues, as have many others, including JohnPTC on his 10,000gal pima tank.
    DIY: I've made a lot of things, and the more things I screw up, the better I get at making new things.

    Occupation: Professional Engineer (Mechanical) <- I definitely don't know everything, but I've got a lot of tools to help me figure most things out.



  5. #15
    Datnoid Griller's Avatar
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    Thanks again cvermeulen. I've hit a major roadblock. I was going to use a local company called Royal Wolf who specialise in adapting ISO containers to cut my container and put in the window frames. They have flatly refused to do it without proper engineering (beyond my humble budget). In fact they sounded quite upset on the phone.

    DAMN! I may need to rethink this project I don't have the means cut and weld on such a scale myself.
    Alex the obsessive fish keeper

    Experience: Marine commercial aquiculture, captive breeding programs, South Australian native FW fish, American cichlids, SCUBA diving
    Check out: my 1000L (264gal) Amazon tank photos, submarine game project, and healing business Unlock my life Adelaide



  6. #16
    Muskellunge cvermeulen's Avatar
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    I'd suggest you ask them what exactly "proper engineering" means. I'm an engineer myself and I can tell you there's no real concern about structural integrity with what you're doing. Ask them if they will do the work if you sign a liability waiver - it sounds like they are just concerned about avoiding liability concerns.
    DIY: I've made a lot of things, and the more things I screw up, the better I get at making new things.

    Occupation: Professional Engineer (Mechanical) <- I definitely don't know everything, but I've got a lot of tools to help me figure most things out.



  7. #17
    Datnoid Griller's Avatar
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    OK - I've been busy consulting engineers and boiler makers over the last few days. After getting a considerable amount of advice I think the ISO idea is not the most practical. The amount of work that needs to be done to prepare the container will likely exceed the cost of custom making a steel tank out if 1/4 inch plate steel and welding it together.

    Here is a rough plan:

    Learn how to weld
    Make aquarium out of 5mm (1/4inch) steel plate $1000
    Get it cut at a precision metal cutting service ($800)
    Purchase a wire feed welder or arc welder ($300)
    Brace horizontally with 3inch angle iron
    Brace vertically with 3 inch flat plate (2 on the front, 1 for the side)
    Window frames made from 3 inch angle iron
    Seal with Herculiner ($1000), paint exterior
    Install windows ($?)
    Line interior with 20mm high density styrofoam and seal with pond sealer ($500)
    Elevate on sleepers over dolomite foundation.
    Install heaters, filters and lid







    I'm going to cunsult some more before coming up with a detailed plan.

    Thanks again for your help cvermeulen. WOW - I didn't know you were an engineer. You are one useful man. I love your massive tank. Do you think this idea will be stucturally sound?

    Most of the advise that you guys have given still apply to the new plan.

    I think I will practice by making some much smaller tanks using the same method for growing out young fish and breeding - then expand out to the big project.
    Alex the obsessive fish keeper

    Experience: Marine commercial aquiculture, captive breeding programs, South Australian native FW fish, American cichlids, SCUBA diving
    Check out: my 1000L (264gal) Amazon tank photos, submarine game project, and healing business Unlock my life Adelaide



  8. #18
    Peacock Bass Bassinkorea's Avatar
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    Ok, I'm not a structural engineer by any means, but I know about painting large steel structures.

    Seal with Herculiner ($1000), paint exterior
    The best advise I can give if you go down the "using steel for a tank" route is to have the tank blasted and painted by an industrial standard company. That way it will last for ever. They should be able to spray a 100% solid epoxy that will be fish safe.



  9. #19
    Muskellunge cvermeulen's Avatar
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    I think your idea will be structurally sound alright, any water tank built from 1/4 inch plate will be very strong.

    I admire your ambition, I would like to caution you just a tad though - I think you may be underestimating the difficulty and the amount of work involved in building the tank yourself. Welding mild steel is quite easy (although you may need more than a $300 welder to penetrate 1/4" plate, it's been some time since I shopped welding equipment.) The problem I see is the weight - steel can be extremely deceptive in it's weight. Simply moving the sides will be a very difficult task without several helpers.

    Without running any numbers, I would suggest looking into using 1/8" plate with braces to prevent bowing. It will still be heavy, but only 1/2 as bad.
    DIY: I've made a lot of things, and the more things I screw up, the better I get at making new things.

    Occupation: Professional Engineer (Mechanical) <- I definitely don't know everything, but I've got a lot of tools to help me figure most things out.



  10. #20
    Filamentosum chesterthehero's Avatar
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    imo i would stick with the container as the base.. cutting it apart will take you a few days but its something you would be able to do yourself.. dont rule out renting a welder and plasma cutter.. though you may want to hire a welder simply for the peace of mind that will come with it..

    how do you plan to get this beast into place? dont forget to contact a crane company and find out if you will need to pull permits from the city unless you have a way to drag that sucker into place..
    Boy the way Glen Miller played, songs that made the hit parade, guys like us we had it made, those were the days, and you know where you were then, girls were girls and men were men, mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again, didn't need no welfare states everybody pulled his weight, gee our old Lasalle ran great, those were the days!



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