temp range-spawn trigger but how low

S

sbuse

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 1, 2009
7,728
10
0
37
IN YOUR HEAD
i have been thinking about this for a while. i know with alot of fish if they go through a "false winter" by lowering the temps they will spawn. i have tried this before with some other fish and it worked. my thoughts is if it we to be tried with gars could it possibly trigger a spawn? i know most of the time it is hormones, but it could be worth a shot. i know it is also not a bad thing for overall fish health and growth to do this.

just how low would be too low? i have tropical and cuban in the mix so i dont want to risk them. so the question is how low can i go before they have a risk?

i was thinking more for when i have my big tank and have a few more gars, but i could do some mock trials now and see how it goes.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
jpcampbell123

jpcampbell123

Redtail Catfish
MFK Member
Feb 18, 2011
1,976
506
150
In the water
i have heard that gars are really hard to get to spawn in captivity without the hormones. i wonder if it would be possible to spawn them in a large outdoor pond set up.
 
S

sbuse

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 1, 2009
7,728
10
0
37
IN YOUR HEAD
jpcampbell123 said:
i have heard that gars are really hard to get to spawn in captivity without the hormones. i wonder if it would be possible to spawn them in a large outdoor pond set up.
Click to expand...
that is what i am going to try to replicate in my large tank/pond indoors. i know ryan has some lng and gators in an outdoor pond to try this and i may do the same with lng and sng. i was going to try it with my floridas and see what i can get out of it. also see if anything else will jump in on the action.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
M

MonsterMinis

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Apr 28, 2009
6,048
9
0
Wisconsin
with the trops and cuban i wouldn't try this imo...
 
S

sbuse

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 1, 2009
7,728
10
0
37
IN YOUR HEAD
MonsterMinis said:
with the trops and cuban i wouldn't try this imo...
Click to expand...
i wouldnt go beyond their natural temp fluctuations, in terms of the trops and cubans low range in the wild. it may not be low enough for the others to get triggered into spawning but it may. i would not put the trops or cuban at risk, and stay with in their safe zone. i just cant seem to find any info on their safe zone bottom. they are tropical and are found in central america, but it has actually snowed in el salvador. that is what caused my thoughts of seasonal fluctuations as even in the tropical region were they are from they do experience a seasonal change. as it is not always sunny and 80f were they come from.

or i was wondering if it was more of a rain related thing. since the winters there are more of a rainy season. in turn the rainy season is colder, but by how much?

i know of a guy in HI i belive that did a study with arowanas. he got silvers to breed in the pond and noted that the moon phase and temps played a part in it. then later i herd of a local guy that got his aros to breed with rain water, a false winter and moon exposure. not sure of all the details on that because it was second or third hand, but it was simmilar to the artical i read about the HI experiment.

now i have thought about using stock tanks and collecting rain water to add and making a false flood stage after a "dry" cycle in the tank. i have thought and planned this before to try and trigger a spawn, but during the "dry" stage i would like to create a false winter and simulate a spring flood. it was during the flood stage i found the lng fry here so i think i am in the right direction.

i just want to know how low the trops and cuban can go before it becomes a risk for them. it is going to be a long process, but if i get all the right things i can do it. i can get permits to catch and aquaculture wild gars from here once i have my pond set up with the dnr. i also know of someone the breeds floridas with hormones, so i may try that. like i said i am not looking to spawn them tomorrow, but i am looking to start a more indepth plan of attack for this project that i have been thinking of and working on.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
P

Polypterus

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Aug 17, 2005
2,839
8
68
49
Detroit
I typically always temp shift my North american gars. It is not in my opinion really a significant factor in naturally spawning them. If it was I'd be swimming in fry all the time. There is clearly some other spawning triggers or a combination of as well. Photo period may actually be one of those. Fact is that in years of research we have not identified the proper combination of triggers at this point for regular and sustained captive spawning without hormones.
 
S

sbuse

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 1, 2009
7,728
10
0
37
IN YOUR HEAD
Polypterus said:
I typically always temp shift my North american gars. It is not in my opinion really a significant factor in naturally spawning them. If it was I'd be swimming in fry all the time. There is clearly some other spawning triggers or a combination of as well. Photo period may actually be one of those. Fact is that in years of research we have not identified the proper combination of triggers at this point for regular and sustained captive spawning without hormones.
Click to expand...
how much of a temp shift do you make?

have you or do you temp shift any tropical or cuban gars? if so how much?

i planned on having large window giving my large setup i have planned direct sunlight. i plan to have alot of natual vegitation including lilly pads and a few others.

have you guys tried a simulated flood stage? or tried rain water? i was thinking about trying that.

ill be mixing wc and store bought fish. i may try a "pure farmmed" approach and then if the all farmmed fish dont work maybe using wc adult gar or a mix of them. the large wc adults would be lng and sng. i may end up with a few large displays to keep my trops amd cuban(s) from getting to cold or overly aggressive. things i have thinking about. lots of thoughts and ideas. i know it all could and most likly will leave me spawnless. i would just like to experiment and try. i am also going to try with bowfins. not sure how that will go, but it will be worth a shot. in the end ill still have my fish regardless of the results, but it has been a goal of mine since i first got into them to try and spawn them. i will also be having large groups of fish aswell in these experiments.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
P

Polypterus

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Aug 17, 2005
2,839
8
68
49
Detroit
sbuse said:
how much of a temp shift do you make?

have you or do you temp shift any tropical or cuban gars? if so how much?

i planned on having large window giving my large setup i have planned direct sunlight. i plan to have alot of natual vegitation including lilly pads and a few others.

have you guys tried a simulated flood stage? or tried rain water? i was thinking about trying that.

ill be mixing wc and store bought fish. i may try a "pure farmmed" approach and then if the all farmmed fish dont work maybe using wc adult gar or a mix of them. the large wc adults would be lng and sng. i may end up with a few large displays to keep my trops amd cuban(s) from getting to cold or overly aggressive. things i have thinking about. lots of thoughts and ideas. i know it all could and most likly will leave me spawnless. i would just like to experiment and try. i am also going to try with bowfins. not sure how that will go, but it will be worth a shot. in the end ill still have my fish regardless of the results, but it has been a goal of mine since i first got into them to try and spawn them. i will also be having large groups of fish aswell in these experiments.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Click to expand...
Typically I drop the temps on my LNG to about 45 (These are Michigan fish), SNG to 45 for Wisconson population, 55 For Kansas population, SPG to 45 (These are Michigan fish not Core population). Keep in mind I only keep them at to extreme lower temps for a total of about 1 1/2 month before slowly rising the temps back up. Likewise the temps are also slowly lowered..It is not a prolonged amount of time that they are kept at the lowest temps rather it is a gentle fall with a gentle rise back up to what I guess would be called "optimal activity" temps. this being in the 75 to 80 degree range.

Currently not working with FLG or ALG at this time. FLG however I used to drop FLG to 60 and ALG to 55.

I have dropped the temps before with TPG down to 55F before they started to show discomfort and behavior change. Typically however I do not alter temps with them and keep them above 65F. CBG are too sensitive and difficult to procure to do too much experimental testing with when it comes to environmental changes. TPG have shown that a temp drop has very little relevant effect and I discontinued doing such with them quickly.

I have not bothered with trying any type of flood type replication as Gars really do not naturally experience any such thing on a chemistry level. However I do step up water changes from about March to June and do no water changes From August to September. I just top off the tanks. This does to an extent replicate conditions they experience. That being the infusing of runoff and snow melt that somewhat dilutes the water and then the peak summer conditions which often have a concentrated chemistry.

I have also done extensive tests using the above and photo period as well.

Still though despite attention to these details I have yet to have any of the North American gars spawn naturally in an Aquarium environment. I certainly have mature fish but have had little activity beyond simulated spawning behavior and coloration changes.
I have however had TPG shed non viable eggs on a few occasions. No specific alterations of tank conditions needed there however I do feel that water change frequency may be something with these. No time recently to play around or run an experiment so I have no data on that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store
Top Bottom