Broken Cycle Not Recovering -PLEASE HELP

4D3

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jan 21, 2013
911
14
18
Australia
Hi,

NOTE: - Before the argument breaks out...there is no aggression and I am fully equip to split fish out - dont want this thread to be about my fish


About 6 weeks ago my cycle broke down for some reason...the only reason i could think of was I usually run on tank/rain water, my wife didnt tell me that the tanks had run dry and she had them refilled with normal town water which contains chlorine and chloramines, I did a large (60-70%) water change and them my issues started.

I have a 6x2x2 with the following filtration:
----------------------------------------------------------
Eheim Pro 3 2080 - stacked with Bottom tray Eheim Mech Pro, Middle and Top tray with Seachem Matrix

Eheim Classic 2217, with a Pre-Filter - Pre filter is 2.5l full of Eheim Mech Pro and 2217 has 2L Eheim Bio-Mech, then the Blue Sponge, then the standard amount of Eheim Substrate Pro (4L I think) then the white pad

2 x 2.5L Moving Bed Filters - One loaded with AquaClay F4-10 (which is static) and HEL-X which is moving.

36w UV Sterilizer (Currently Turned Off)

also in the tank i have 2000LPH Otto filter and 2 power heads to increase circulation.

----------------------------------------------------------
Tank Stock:

30cm Jag
30cm Synspilum
30cm Fenustratus
28cm Green Terror (White)
26cm Green Terror (Gold)
20cm Jack Dempsey
18cm Jack Dempsey
12cm Oscar
12cm Jack Dempsey
10cm Flowerhorn
10cm Festea
10cm Red Devil
10cm Polini

13cm Featherfin
2 x 13cm Sailfin Pleco

----------------------------------------------------------


when I test the water I am getting off the chart readings for all tests Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite I am using API liquid kits....I know that the ammonia test will be distorted because of using PRIME, but I have a Seachem Ammonia Alert in the tank that is about 2 months old and the ammonia readout on that is 0.05 ppm.


I am at a loss as to what to do? Do i have enough Bio filtration to cope with the tank, namely 8L Matrix, 4L Eheim Substrate Pro, 2L Eheim Bio-Mech and 5L of moving bed filters...

I have tried following a Seachem Stability dosing schedule, but i didnt notice much difference.

How can i do a waterchange without the chlorine & chloramine screwing with my filters bacteria?
 

Drstrangelove

Potamotrygon
MFK Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,693
1,227
164
San Francisco
when I test the water I am getting off the chart readings for all tests Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite
The fact that you have off the chart readings on nitrates means you have a cycled aquarium (or one that has not seen a water change in many weeks.

If you have off the chart readings for all 3 and you are doing the tests correctly and the readings are correct (not erroneous), then:

1) off the chart results in nitrates means you are not doing water changes or doing well below the normal amount required for the amount you are feeding
2) off the chart readings on both ammonia and nitrite while also having off the chart readings on nitrate means you are over feeding quite a bit relative to the amount of BB you have. This could be due to different reasons.


It's possible that your water changes are adding some ammonia or nitrite, but off the chart nitrate readings would mean your water is way out of compliance with the common EPA or Euro standards.

A) it'd be helpful to give all 3 numbers rather than "off the chart" if you have that
B) it'd be helpful to tell us what results you got from testing the source water, if you tested it
C) it'd be helpful, if you have been testing and tracking the water readings to tell us when it was fine (0,0,30) and when it became off the chart
 

4D3

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jan 21, 2013
911
14
18
Australia
The fact that you have off the chart readings on nitrates means you have a cycled aquarium (or one that has not seen a water change in many weeks.

If you have off the chart readings for all 3 and you are doing the tests correctly and the readings are correct (not erroneous), then:

1) off the chart results in nitrates means you are not doing water changes or doing well below the normal amount required for the amount you are feeding
2) off the chart readings on both ammonia and nitrite while also having off the chart readings on nitrate means you are over feeding quite a bit relative to the amount of BB you have. This could be due to different reasons.
Thanks for the response I am using the API kits correctly

It's possible that your water changes are adding some ammonia or nitrite, but off the chart nitrate readings would mean your water is way out of compliance with the common EPA or Euro standards.
I testes the source as you requested:

If i am reading the colors correctly, going Left to Right I have Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate with the respective values 0,0,0

Source:
Source.JPG
A) it'd be helpful to give all 3 numbers rather than "off the chart" if you have that
B) it'd be helpful to tell us what results you got from testing the source water, if you tested it
C) it'd be helpful, if you have been testing and tracking the water readings to tell us when it was fine (0,0,30) and when it became off the chart
A:

Ammonia - I Litterally cannot tell you...the test is blue...see below pic
Nitrite - 5 ppm
Nitrate - 80 ppm

I did a 20% water change yesterday....

Tank Water

Tank.JPG

Ammonia Alert From Seachem - why is this saying im within a safe ammonia range? does that mean that the API is detecting the non toxic ammonia as well?:

Ammo Alert.JPG

Any advice now you have this info?

BTW - all my fish have great colours, very active and eating....

should i stop feeding them for a few days?

Ammo Alert.JPG

Source.JPG

Tank.JPG
 

Ian21777

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 16, 2012
860
3
18
England
im facing a similar problem, api test kit is reading high ammonia, but zero nitrite and nitrate, seachem ammonia alert reads safe like yours. the api test kit will measure total ammonia where as the alert thingy will only register free ammonia. doesn't help with the nitrate or nitrite problem I know but explains the conflicting ammonia readings
 

4D3

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jan 21, 2013
911
14
18
Australia
im facing a similar problem, api test kit is reading high ammonia, but zero nitrite and nitrate, seachem ammonia alert reads safe like yours. the api test kit will measure total ammonia where as the alert thingy will only register free ammonia. doesn't help with the nitrate or nitrite problem I know but explains the conflicting ammonia readings
so which ammonia reading do i believe...the seachem one?
 

Ian21777

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jun 16, 2012
860
3
18
England
Technically both. But the one to worry about in respect to fish health is the seachem alert. What is your PH? At a lower PH less ammonia is 'free' and therefore harmful to the fish. Also things like prime will convert free ammonia to the 'safe' kind. Its good for the fish in the short term, but does show an underlying problem. More worrying for you is the nitrite, that will be deadly to fish if not remedied. Id recommend some large water changes over the course of a few days to bring it back in line. It sounds to me like using the chlorinated water rather than the rain water has damaged your population of BB and it will need time to recover. Like I said , frequent partial water changes and minimal feeding until things get back to normal. Use prime or similar on the water to neutralise the chlorine/chloramine. You can also overdose with prime to detoxify ammonia and nitrite- according to the bottle. It may pay you to invest in a tub of seachem 'safe' which is basically prime in a powdered form. it lasts a lot longer so works out a lot cheaper. You can dose it everyday to keep things non toxic till your filters catch up. dosage is on the tub. if you are able, take some mature filter media from another tank, yours if you have one, if not a friends or speak nicely to a lfs. this hopefully will kickstart the cycle better. other than that its just patience really. stability didn't work for me either, though others report success. good luck!
 

4D3

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jan 21, 2013
911
14
18
Australia
Technically both. But the one to worry about in respect to fish health is the seachem alert. What is your PH? At a lower PH less ammonia is 'free' and therefore harmful to the fish.
I use Seachem Neutral Regulator so my PH is at 7 and stable, I have a bare bottom tank with terracotta ornaments
Also things like prime will convert free ammonia to the 'safe' kind. Its good for the fish in the short term, but does show an underlying problem. More worrying for you is the nitrite, that will be deadly to fish if not remedied. Id recommend some large water changes over the course of a few days to bring it back in line. It sounds to me like using the chlorinated water rather than the rain water has damaged your population of BB and it will need time to recover.
I have been using a daily dose of prime, I am unsure of the effect of prime on the nitrate/nitrite...it says it detoxifies them but the system seems to produce them faster than prime can remove!
Like I said , frequent partial water changes and minimal feeding until things get back to normal. Use prime or similar on the water to neutralise the chlorine/chloramine.
would i be correct in thinking that since my ammonia test on my source water showed zero for ammonia i have no chloramines in the water? also i did an ammonia test on my source water with prime added and it was the same colour as the original test i displayed...does this mean there are no chloramines in the water?

if you are able, take some mature filter media from another tank, yours if you have one, if not a friends or speak nicely to a lfs. this hopefully will kickstart the cycle better.
this was the first thing i did! i got them to rinse out a load of sponge filters into a bucket then i used a hose and funnel to pour that into the filter inlet seemed to have a nill effect...

Is there anything that can infect the canister and stop the bacteria from growing?
 

Drstrangelove

Potamotrygon
MFK Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,693
1,227
164
San Francisco
More worrying for you is the nitrite, that will be deadly to fish if not remedied. Id recommend some large water changes over the course of a few days to bring it back in line. It sounds to me like using the chlorinated water rather than the rain water has damaged your population of BB and it will need time to recover. Like I said , frequent partial water changes and minimal feeding until things get back to normal.
+1

You do have BB, but it's population is inadequate to process the current food levels. Your fish are all at least 4 - 12", so no or low feeding will be acceptable for a few days. When you have nitrites down to acceptable levels, you can slowly increase feeding.

As to one of your first questions, periodically watch your metrics as you increase feeding. Technically there is a limit to the amount you can feed before the tank gets toxic (a filter has it's limits), so if you have slowly raised the feed and then start seeing toxins (ammonia/nitrite) grow, you may be near the limit of your bio filter.

Splitting meals is an option at that point as well as using lower protein foods (or less undigestible proteins) or adding / upgrading filtration. Which one is a the best choice depends on other factors.
 

4D3

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jan 21, 2013
911
14
18
Australia
+1

You do have BB, but it's population is inadequate to process the current food levels. Your fish are all at least 4 - 12", so no or low feeding will be acceptable for a few days. When you have nitrites down to acceptable levels, you can slowly increase feeding.
How many days do you think they will be on to have zero feeding? 2 days? will not feeding increase aggression?

As to one of your first questions, periodically watch your metrics as you increase feeding. Technically there is a limit to the amount you can feed before the tank gets toxic (a filter has it's limits), so if you have slowly raised the feed and then start seeing toxins (ammonia/nitrite) grow, you may be near the limit of your bio filter.
ok so if I do have a BB population it may still be in its infancy? as I said i have about 14L of bio housing media in my canisters alone then close to 4L of bio media in moving beds...

I have a friend with a 6x2x2 with a single Eheim Classic 2260 and a higher stock level than mine and his parameters are perfect..
Splitting meals is an option at that point as well as using lower protein foods (or less undigestible proteins) or adding / upgrading filtration. Which one is a the best choice depends on other factors.
I currently feed Hikari Bio Gold Cichlid...is this a good choice of food?

Also regarding Chloramines, please see the pic below, the test on the left is my source water on its own, it is registering zero on an ammonia test, I mixed some prime into a glass of water and took a second test (On the Right) and it is showing about 0.25ppm - is this a positive for Chloramines?

SOurce With Prime.JPG


So going forward...I need to do 20% WC daily until my nitrate falls down to acceptable levels? and reduce feeding to 1 feed every 2-3 days?

SOurce With Prime.JPG
 
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