Mixing parents and siblings together for breeding

jim barry

jim barry

Goliath Tigerfish
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Jun 21, 2006
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I have to ask the question although i am pretty sure i know the answer. But i have been prompted to think about this and ask the question on the back of a thread 'Sebarau' posted in the media lounge. I am probably just being thick and have missread the post BUT. From the sounds of it the breeding group being put together by this member is a mix containing siblings that are to be bred with the father of the same siblings.
Is this correct?
Can you allow the father of siblings to breed with the siblings once big enough?
I would have thought this to be a big no no as you would be mixing genes. Am i wrong or right to think you can not do this?
Thanks and please forgive my stupidness for asking, but i am confused and need this cleared up. I just can't see how you can allow the father of a ray to breed with that same ray once old enough. Something tells me that is wrong.
 
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davenmandy

Peacock Bass
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Feb 1, 2012
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Historically, and it would be great if an expert could chime in here and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe any sort of imbreeding leads to weak genes and health problems in most cases. An I mean for any animal. Best to stay away in my opinion, especially if you plan to sell the puppies, people may not know what they are getting and be left paying for medication or heartbroken when their (expensive) ray dies. Just think of the puppy mills. TBH, I don't see any excuse for this, either sell the siblings or sell the father, best for everyone in the long run.
 
jim barry

jim barry

Goliath Tigerfish
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Jun 21, 2006
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Yes, this is what i am thinking. It's the same for dogs, cats etc. You would not breed the mother or father of an animal with one of it's young. It's not right. But i would like confirmation from other breeders out there.
When i read the post in the media lounge about a future breeding project it came across to me as if the pups were future breeding stock for the father. It must just be the way the thread is written.
 
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davenmandy

Peacock Bass
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I read the thread, maybe I didn't read it carefully enough or just didn't understand it but I didnt make the link, perhaps you picked something out that I didn't. Good to see you care though man, good on you. I think Zoodiver may be a good person to provide some input here potentially, hopefully he can chime in. Just ask yourself, would you do it? I wouldn't. When I was looking for my male vamptrev said he wouldn't sell me one because it was a sibling to the female I bought from him, and he brought this topic to my attention, prior to that point in time I was of the mindset "who cares it's just a fish, genes probably doesn't matter". After speaking with him i began to look at them more as an individual animal. With all the hybrid talk, genetics is clearly something important in these animals specifically.

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snake8myelbo

snake8myelbo

Fire Eel
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One reason this would be acceptable is to prove out a new gene. like the first albino that was brought in. It had to breed with its young to create more albinos. Then you can Start outcrossing. Any further than 1st generation inbreeding is when you run into alot of issues.

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Zoodiver

Zoodiver

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Aug 22, 2005
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Sometimes this is refered to as 'line breeding'. It is very similar to the topic of creating cross mixes of species. You get a very black and white answer as to people for or against it.

That being said, it has been done, especially in the early years of FW ray keeping. The problems started occuring when it was done too much. Parent to offspring a once is ok. But, just like with any genetic replication, if you continue to do it too long, the pool becomes too narrow and problems/weakness will start to show up. There are some places that started with limited stock, and did nothing but keep track of the pups, then mixed and matched the best they could. Belle Isle Aquarium lead the way with FW rays when they first hit the US. If memory serves me, they started with less than 6 motoros (someone correct me if I'm wrong). By the time I got into it, I was starting with offspring several generations away from that original group, and then following their protocol for spread the genetics out as far as possible simple by tracking who bred with who, and where those offspring ended up.

How in depth do we want to get on this topic?
 
jim barry

jim barry

Goliath Tigerfish
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Jun 21, 2006
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Hey zoodiver, how are you?
That's good enough for me. I did not think it was the correct thing to do. The thread i read was leading me to believe that inbreeding was planned. I probably just missread the thread.
Thanks for the clarification though.
Zoodiver said:
Sometimes this is refered to as 'line breeding'. It is very similar to the topic of creating cross mixes of species. You get a very black and white answer as to people for or against it.

That being said, it has been done, especially in the early years of FW ray keeping. The problems started occuring when it was done too much. Parent to offspring a once is ok. But, just like with any genetic replication, if you continue to do it too long, the pool becomes too narrow and problems/weakness will start to show up. There are some places that started with limited stock, and did nothing but keep track of the pups, then mixed and matched the best they could. Belle Isle Aquarium lead the way with FW rays when they first hit the US. If memory serves me, they started with less than 6 motoros (someone correct me if I'm wrong). By the time I got into it, I was starting with offspring several generations away from that original group, and then following their protocol for spread the genetics out as far as possible simple by tracking who bred with who, and where those offspring ended up.

How in depth do we want to get on this topic?
Click to expand...
 
B

BuffaloPolypteridae

Feeder Fish
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Aug 5, 2013
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Multiple generations of inbreeding tend to lead to bad issues with anything, as was said one time isn't too bad and may be required for a line breed etc

Look at Senegal bichirs for example, they are massively bred on farms and have a myriad of health issues in comparison to their wild counterpart . While its up to debate if its the quality of the farms themselves or inbreeding that's causing these issues inbreeding surely doesn't help lol

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Zoodiver

Zoodiver

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Aug 22, 2005
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jim barry said:
Hey zoodiver, how are you?
That's good enough for me. I did not think it was the correct thing to do. The thread i read was leading me to believe that inbreeding was planned. I probably just missread the thread.
Thanks for the clarification though.
Click to expand...

Some inbreeding/line breeding is planned. Usually it is done purely for profit reasons - pup production to sell. Some is done specifically to draw out certain patterns/styles (again, usually to sell at a higher price).
The guys who did it years ago had no other choice. Getting rays in alive from the wild was hit and miss (and expensive), so they bred what they had to expand the captive collection. You would be amazed at how many motoro rays in US public aquariums can be traced back in genetics to what the guys at Belle Isle Aquarium did many years ago.
 
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