Geophagus surinamensis questions

Hey all,

So I have a tank I've been growing out some Geophagus in. They live with some rather small senegal bichirs I tossed in and a Synodontis petricola. They all get along really well, except the biggest Geophagus has decided to build a nest and freak out at every other geophagus. I bought four, all at the same size (little babies) and the big one is almost certainly a male. Two others have grown slower and then one barely grew at all. I was hoping to just end with a male and female, but I don't know how to tell which is which! The big male is nipping the hell out of the fins of all the other geophagus. Is this a sign that I got dicked over and have 4 males? Last time I tried this I got all males as well. Do they nip the females too?

It's a smaller tank, only 45 gallons and it's definitely time to move some of these larger cichlids out. I just don't know which to move out. I honestly wouldn't give a crap if all 4 stay in there, but the nipping is getting a bit extreme as the big male has taken 2/3 of the tank for himself. If I have to, I'll just maybe keep the big male and have the catfish, bichirs and just him.

Any experience/advice in dealing with this? I had hoped as they grew up that one pair would naturally form but that doesn't seem to be the case. Another option is to remove the grumpy male and see if two of the others pair up.

Thanks!!

Edit: okay I am testing this out. I removed the big ol male and put him in a bucket with a cave. I'll give it a few days and see if any of the others pair up (how long does this take? As far as I know, they make a cave and bam that's that). If not, they are big enough that they should be pairing up and can be determined to all be male.

They were sold as surinamensis. They definitely aren't altifrons, brazilensis, tapajos or any of the other more elaborate species in the genus. They also are not Satanoperca jurapari. I'm certain they are in the surinamensis complex. I know what a ****storm cichlids can be, so I'm not holding my breath on exacting specific epithets. They seem to be maxing out at 8 inches only, the big male has been that size for about 4 months and then started getting his long fins. That happened to both the last ones I bought which turned male, 8 inches only. This is the case for several other batches I know of that came from the same shipment, they simply aren't getting very big. The two subordinate ones are 5 and 6 inches with the smallest one being only maybe 3.5-4 inches, but it didn't really grow a whole lot. If any of them is female, I suspect it's this one cause it's never been aggressive when all the others would section off the tank at even smaller sizes. They have comparatively muted colors to all others in the genus with smaller fin trailers and so far almost none to speak of on the caudal fin, except a small spike coming off the top and extending out maybe 2 mm max. The pelvic fin trailers only extend out about as long as the end of the caudal fin and then stop extending. I've had this batch for around 7 months. Hope that helps kinda clear it up, they are rather hard to photograph.

Here is the bigger male about a month or more ago, before his pelvic trailers really grew a bunch (though he is still this size)



The goal was to grow them up a bit then get rid of all but 2, cause I was buying them at around 2 inches or less the 45 gallon was ideal. I was really lead to believe that by about this size they should have formed a pair (6-8 inches.) Right now I'm in the phase of getting rid of all but a pair and then reassessing needs, but no pair has formed so I dunno what to do other than maybe trade em all in for like 6-10 babies and hope I finally get a female on the third try. It might be a poor choice if they are gonna be over the top aggressive during breeding, though. I tend to have rather strange luck with fish, I had a proven pair of N. brichardi with 3 other females and one subordinate male. The males then paired up over and over, made nests and didn't reproduce. Literally *** fish, hah.

Okay so I pulled the giant grumpy male out for a few days. He sat in a bucket in my shower for about 48 hours. I reorganized the tank and the smaller fish sorted out who is in charge among them. Now that I've re-added the big grumpy one he is a lot more calm. They are all a lot more calm. I've never seen a fish "time out" work before, other species of cichlids I've tried it with just went right back to being idiots. This seems pretty good, though it's only been 12 hours. All the nest making has stopped for now as well. We'll see if it continues to be nice, they are actually very peaceful now!

I kinda think part of the issue is that I suck at making luxury cichlid estates. Like sometimes they like the caves I make, I guess this past configuration they didn't like them. Now there is a big one that he favours, so he's a lot calmer. Perhaps that was part of the stress? I do agree it's too small, as soon as I get a new job it's top of the list of things I need to get (75+ gal)

yep, totally was hoping to only have two and then upgrade tanks size but situations are crappier than planned 6 months ago. I think the one that hasn't grown a whole lot is probably female. Having a female would explain the random aggression in an otherwise peaceful fish. It is still small enough that it probably wouldn't be showing trailers even if it is a male, but it's aggro'd on the least out of all them (it does get nipped still though). It eats the most of all when it comes to pellet time, I think this is because it doesn't get much grazing time in with the larger ones dominating it. It's funny, none of them show any color at all except the biggest male with a black spot. So they aren't exactly stressed, it's just the fin nipping that is pissing me off more than anything.

How big is the female compared to the males?

How good are these fish at regenerating fins? I have a few tears and nips here and there and it'd be nice if once things are sorted they can grow back.

Ah, thanks. Yah the only trailer on the caudal of my flawless male disappeared, hah. Turns out he's not in charge any more. The three males are slap fighting for caves, there are two amazing ones whose entries point away from each other.

Going to LFS soon, gonna be trading in at least 2 of these males. Maybe all of them and the small one just to reset with 6-8 babies. Either that or get the foot long senegal bichir they have...damn that thing is amazing. Makes me get bichir envy, though I do love my two 8 inch males to tiny pieces. This sounded horribly dirty. Eep. Maybe I'll just look into tapajos, these guys are really troublesome. :/

Anyone have info on brasilensis or steindachneri?