Go big or go home

Quo Vadis · Sep 20, 2014

I have been in the process of planning a tank build for next spring, but recently came to this conclusion. If I am going to the work, and expense of building my own "monster tank" I need to go bigger. I just can't justify the build unless I can reduce the number of other tanks I have running, and going bigger means I can probably combine some my smaller tanks (75-125g) into one tank for my smaller cichlids, and put all the bigger cichlids together in the big display tank I'm building. So... I will now be building a tank in the 600-700g range to house monster cichlids, and a couple other fish. The tank will be 90" long, 42 or 48" wide, and 36 or 42" tall. I'm not entirely sure about filtration yet, but it will probably involve a large sump, DIY giant filter, and probably constant drip water changes.

I'm sure I will be asking for tons of advice on the actual building process in the DIY section, but these are the fish I will be putting in it. Most of them are currently .5-2 inches, and are distributed between my various tanks. Some I am raising a small group of, but when they hit 4 inches or so I'll be picking my favorite from the bunch and selling the others. Most will be kept as singletons of thier species, but I may keep a few pairs.

1 "Copper" Oscar - (this guy was sold as Red Oscar, but is unlike any other Red I've ever seen.)
2 Crassipinnis Oscar
1 Hoplarchus pssiticus AKA True Parrot
1 Chocolate cichlid - (I have heard the Parrot may pick on the Chocolate, but I am hoping in a tank this size it will be ok. If not I'll move the Chocolate.)
Uaru - (4 or 5 initially, but I may only keep a pair when they reach adulthood)
2 Heros sp.
1-2 Gold Saum GT
1 Caquetaia spectabalis
4-5 Geophagus Altifrons
2 Synspilum
1 Vieja regani
1 Vieja heterospilus
1 Pearsei
1 Bocourti - (may have conflict with the Pearsei, if so I'll get rid of one of them)
1 Amphilophus Lyonsi
1 Parachromis loiselle
1 Nic - (if this turns out to be female I may keep in different tank since the females are quite a bit smaller as adults I hear)
1 Jack Dempsey
1 Chuco micro
1 Bluegill
1 Pumpkinseed sunfish
1 Rock bass sunfish
1 Paratilapia "large spot"

1 Giraffe Cat
1 Fire eel

As these fish grow if there are any I'm not in love with I will rehome them. I have had enough fish that I am not interested in keeping fish I don't really like anymore.

Any comments or advice getting into such a large tank size?

Mythic Figment · Sep 21, 2014

Quo Vadis said:
I have been in the process of planning a tank build for next spring, but recently came to this conclusion. If I am going to the work, and expense of building my own "monster tank" I need to go bigger. I just can't justify the build unless I can reduce the number of other tanks I have running, and going bigger means I can probably combine some my smaller tanks (75-125g) into one tank for my smaller cichlids, and put all the bigger cichlids together in the big display tank I'm building. So... I will now be building a tank in the 600-700g range to house monster cichlids, and a couple other fish. The tank will be 90" long, 42 or 48" wide, and 36 or 42" tall. I'm not entirely sure about filtration yet, but it will probably involve a large sump, DIY giant filter, and probably constant drip water changes.

I'm sure I will be asking for tons of advice on the actual building process in the DIY section, but these are the fish I will be putting in it. Most of them are currently .5-2 inches, and are distributed between my various tanks. Some I am raising a small group of, but when they hit 4 inches or so I'll be picking my favorite from the bunch and selling the others. Most will be kept as singletons of thier species, but I may keep a few pairs.

1 "Copper" Oscar - (this guy was sold as Red Oscar, but is unlike any other Red I've ever seen.)
2 Crassipinnis Oscar
1 Hoplarchus pssiticus AKA True Parrot
1 Chocolate cichlid - (I have heard the Parrot may pick on the Chocolate, but I am hoping in a tank this size it will be ok. If not I'll move the Chocolate.)
Uaru - (4 or 5 initially, but I may only keep a pair when they reach adulthood)
2 Heros sp.
1-2 Gold Saum GT
1 Caquetaia spectabalis
4-5 Geophagus Altifrons
2 Synspilum
1 Vieja regani
1 Vieja heterospilus
1 Pearsei
1 Bocourti - (may have conflict with the Pearsei, if so I'll get rid of one of them)
1 Amphilophus Lyonsi
1 Parachromis loiselle
1 Nic - (if this turns out to be female I may keep in different tank since the females are quite a bit smaller as adults I hear)
1 Jack Dempsey
1 Chuco micro
1 Bluegill
1 Pumpkinseed sunfish
1 Rock bass sunfish
1 Paratilapia "large spot"

1 Giraffe Cat
1 Fire eel

As these fish grow if there are any I'm not in love with I will rehome them. I have had enough fish that I am not interested in keeping fish I don't really like anymore.

Any comments or advice getting into such a large tank size?

A few issues:

1) Your stock ranges from very peaceful to very aggressive. Deaths will likely occur.
2) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. Most of your stock will stay near the bottom (within the bottom 12" for the most part). This compounds the aggression level issue in #1 since you will have less territory for them to claim than you think they have.
3) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. You will have to snorkel or scuba in that tank to do interior maintenance, such as redecorating, pulling fry if desired, removing build up of algae/fungus/etc, and removing poop or dead fish.
4) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. Have fun catching fish to rehome in a 3'+ tall tank that is 3' to 4' wide.
5) You have a range of comfortable temperatures with the various stock. Some of those species prefer low 80s, some in the mid to low 70s and others as low as in the upper 60s. This 10-15 degree difference may not sound like much, but it could result in stunted growth if kept too low or heightened aggression if kept too high depending on the species in question.
6) Some of the stock will require a periodic temperature adjustment. Some of the sunfish species will benefit greatly from a yearly cool down period for 3-4 months of the year that most of the other members of the stock will not appreciate.

It's my opinion that massive tanks like this are best used to house either a few massive species or large groups of a few species rather than large collections of individuals. The more species you add to the list, the more likely you are to increase the number of issues you experience with your stock. You would also be better served to drop the tank height down to 24" and if you feel the need to add more space, do so in the length and/or width areas, unless you were to add a large number of middle-top level fish, then a 36"+ tank would be much more justified.

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Freshwaterpredators · Sep 21, 2014

^^ he does have a point. I think building large tanks are awesome ideas for biotopes. At least that way all the parameters are the same and cause less stress on them and you. I also agree about cutting down to 24" tall and add in width or length. Are you building a glass, acrylic, or plywood tank?? All which vary in prices. But also consider wether it's woof, acrylic, or glass, they all come in 4x8' sheets. So since you'll most likely be buying full sheets, why not utilize all materials and go 96"x48"x24"??

Good luck and please do a progression thread on it

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Quo Vadis · Sep 21, 2014

Hey thanks for the feedback! I'm building a plywood tank, with glass or acrylic window, and pond liner. I can't go longer than 90" because of the space the tank will occupy. And because it is going to be in a corner, even if I only go 24" tall I won't be able to reach down anywhere except right by two of the edges that will be accessible. I have a long handled pool net and tongs to help, but yes I already know other things may require me to get in the tank. The tank will be on concrete in my basement, so a little wetness if I have to pop on a swimsuit and get in it isn't a huge deal. The main thing I need to figure out is how I will vacuum it, but with it being so wide that's an issue I already have been trying to figure out. I may do a separate post somewhere asking for advice on that.

The reason I want to go taller is three fold - I want the extra gallon-age, I think such a big tank being that short looks unbalanced, and my fire eel could possibly reach 36", so I want him to be able to stretch out upward as well as side to side. Same for the Giraffe cat, though 24" in a more likely max for him, despite reports of bigger ones. Also, I have found some of the fish (especially the Oscars and sunfish) on this list do actually use open water, not just stake a territory at the bottom. So I am leaning pretty strongly toward 90"Lx48"Wx36"T.

Quo Vadis · Sep 21, 2014

Couple questions...

Mythic Figment said:
A few issues:

1) Your stock ranges from very peaceful to very aggressive. Deaths will likely occur. Which species do you think are likely to be too aggressive? None on the list are real killers, at least not moreso than any determined cichlid. I know the Loiselle, and Lyonsi are from very aggressive families, but both have the reputation for being much milder. Also since I am raising groups of most species from babies with the slightly more aggressive species one of the main things that will determine which fish I keep is one that has a balanced, non-aggressive, non-timid personality. I'm sure this is not universally true, but I also have found most large SA cichlids (Oscars, Sevs, Large Geos...) more capable of holding their own than most people give them credit for. BUt Any specific combos of fish I should keep my eyes on or be worried about?

2) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. Most of your stock will stay near the bottom (within the bottom 12" for the most part). This compounds the aggression level issue in #1 since you will have less territory for them to claim than you think they have. I have actually found my Oscars and Sunfish spend a lot of time cruising open water and near the top, so I do think some of the fish will use it.

3) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. You will have to snorkel or scuba in that tank to do interior maintenance, such as redecorating, pulling fry if desired, removing build up of algae/fungus/etc, and removing poop or dead fish. Yup, I know it will be a pain, I have a 32" tall 160g right now...

4) Your tank is unnecessarily tall. Have fun catching fish to rehome in a 3'+ tall tank that is 3' to 4' wide. Yes, this may be difficult, but I find large cichlids get so excited at feeding time that it's not soooo hard to catch them then if you are sneaky!

5) You have a range of comfortable temperatures with the various stock. Some of those species prefer low 80s, some in the mid to low 70s and others as low as in the upper 60s. This 10-15 degree difference may not sound like much, but it could result in stunted growth if kept too low or heightened aggression if kept too high depending on the species in question. Are you mainly referencing the sunfish? I know many people have qualms about keeping them with cichlids in heated tanks, but IME, they do fine. Sunfish are extremely adaptable and widespread down into far southern US, and in fact they are invasive in parts of C/S America. Unlike Uruguayan cichilds, which only exist in very specific temperature range, and need the cooldown to thrive, sunfish can thrive anywhere from constant tropical temps to constant very low temps like in Northern Canada. I have kept many sunfish, both in unheated tanks and at tropical temps, and have never personally noticed any difference in vitality or vibrancy. I know some people will disagree with on this, and that's fine, you have to do what you think will be best for your fish, but I have kept sunfish much longer than cichlids, so if anything I have more experience with them than cichlids.

6) Some of the stock will require a periodic temperature adjustment. Some of the sunfish species will benefit greatly from a yearly cool down period for 3-4 months of the year that most of the other members of the stock will not appreciate.

It's my opinion that massive tanks like this are best used to house either a few massive species or large groups of a few species rather than large collections of individuals. The more species you add to the list, the more likely you are to increase the number of issues you experience with your stock. You would also be better served to drop the tank height down to 24" and if you feel the need to add more space, do so in the length and/or width areas, unless you were to add a large number of middle-top level fish, then a 36"+ tank would be much more justified. Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate your input, but I already decided against a biotope for a couple reasons: first, all the other tanks I have left are biotopes, and second, I can only have one really large tank, and making it a biotope limits me more on stock than I would like. I think keeping a couple of my smaller biotope tanks, and then having a variety in my large tank will give me the best of both worlds. The exact stocklist is somewhat flexible, but I pretty set that this will not be a biotope.

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Quo Vadis · Sep 21, 2014

The tank (from YouTube) that inspires me the most, and is most similar to what I want to replicate is this one:

[video=youtube;7NhFRBCvJtg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NhFRBCvJtg[/video]

Hopefully the video will help give a vision of what I am going for, though somewhat different obviously. I really can't get over how much I like that tank though, despite the fact that I don't like ID/Paroon sharks

Mythic Figment · Sep 21, 2014

Quo Vadis said:
Hey thanks for the feedback! I'm building a plywood tank, with glass or acrylic window, and pond liner. I can't go longer than 90" because of the space the tank will occupy. And because it is going to be in a corner, even if I only go 24" tall I won't be able to reach down anywhere except right by two of the edges that will be accessible. I have a long handled pool net and tongs to help, but yes I already know other things may require me to get in the tank. The tank will be on concrete in my basement, so a little wetness if I have to pop on a swimsuit and get in it isn't a huge deal. The main thing I need to figure out is how I will vacuum it, but with it being so wide that's an issue I already have been trying to figure out. I may do a separate post somewhere asking for advice on that.

The reason I want to go taller is three fold - I want the extra gallon-age, I think such a big tank being that short looks unbalanced, and my fire eel could possibly reach 36", so I want him to be able to stretch out upward as well as side to side. Same for the Giraffe cat, though 24" in a more likely max for him, despite reports of bigger ones. Also, I have found some of the fish (especially the Oscars and sunfish) on this list do actually use open water, not just stake a territory at the bottom. So I am leaning pretty strongly toward 90"Lx48"Wx36"T.

Many of those cichlids will utilize some of the top space, but will spend the majority of their time near the bottom. The oscars and sunfish are among those that will spend a little more time in the upper levels, but unless you have decorations going all the way to the top of the tank, most fish only tend to venture as high as their source of cover does. That is a recommendation if you do decide to stick with a 36"+ tall tank that you can use to try and get your cichlids to make the most use of the space. But still plan for most of them to feel more comfortable close to the bottom.

As far as vacuuming goes, you will probably have to build a large DIY syphon using a 3'-4' section of PVC and a few feet of tubing.

Large corner tanks are a pain in the @$$ to clean. Good luck with it. Most large tanks are only pushed against one wall or don't connect with any walls due to the burden walls put on a tank's ability to be easily accessed.

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Mythic Figment · Sep 21, 2014

I would specifically keep an eye out for the four Vieja, the Parachromis and the Amphilophus. While it's true many larger SAs can hold their own, the territorial nature of the two regions tends to be different. Most SAs establish a multi-species hierarchy that is not likely to to upset unless an individual grows, allowing it to be more dominant, or if a high level fish becomes sick or injured, opening the door for other fish to take over. With CAs, the territorial nature is much more aggressive, especially with the larger species. Combine this aggressive territorial nature with the very peaceful tendencies of the Severum, Uaru and Chocolate (and sometimes oscars) and the limited territory for all the large cichlids to claim and you have large bullies who will fight to take their "share" of the turf against cichlids that will either not fight back and become stressed or will fight back and lose.

And I am not talking about a biotope exactly. Biotopes tend to be a collection of species from the same river or same river system where their environmental requirements are almost exactly the same. I'm talking about focusing on a few species with similar environment requirements rather than a wide array of fish with a wide array of environmental preferences. Such tanks tend to be difficult to make work because of aggression differences, water parameter differences (hardness, temperature, sensitivity to negative parameters, etc), and other general environmental differences (lighting, space vs decor, etc).

It is simply going to be better for both you and the fish to narrow the stock list down in the number of different species, but keeping a few more of those species. If you want to challenge yourself, you can move forward with your list, but it is highly likely that you will experience the death of a few fish due to aggression and/or environmental stress.

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Quo Vadis · Sep 21, 2014

Ok, good points to keep in mind! Unfortunately I am extremely limited in choices as the where this tank would go, because my house is not very big.

The Amphilophus and Parachromis are the ones I'm a but more worried about, but having a whole group to choose from I am hoping will really enable me to pick a mellow member of those species. They are currently literally .5 inches, so I have a little while, despite their fast growth rates. Maybe this will change when they reach full size, but I have found the Vieja to be quite peaceful so far. My three largest fish that will go in that tank are a 7in Severum, a 8in Syn and a 7in Syn. They are currently in a 90g with some smaller cichlids, (including the Oscars and other Sev) and completely ignore each other, except for an occasional chase. Maybe CAs actually behave more peacefully when they are with submissive SAs, who don't challenge them. I am sure if the Sev challenged the Syns he would get whooped, but it seems like they are only interested in fighting fish who test them, and the Sevs and smaller Oscars don't. (Unlike my dumb Guinacara, who I had to remove because he kept challenging the big male Syn, who had no interest in fighting, but also wouldn't back down.) On the other hand my 3.5 inch Crassipinnis Oscar is definitely dominant over the Carpintis who's almost 5 inches. Cichlids are weird, they never do what you expect them to.

Also I do plan to have lots of tall driftwood, like the video I posted. I have a family cottage on a lake with tons of choices. My 32" tall tank is chock full of driftwood, extending all the way to the top, and the cichlids in that tank use even the top part of thank for cover. But they are Paretroplus, which tend to be open water swimmers more I think, since they are related to saltwater tangs.

Quo Vadis · Sep 21, 2014

I know some people thank a bare tanks helps cut down on aggression, but I think lots of cover, like driftwood is ideal, because it breaks lines of sight, and provides hiding spots, but it is difficult to "claim," unlike, say, clay pots.


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