Cichla Orinocensis ID and Discussion

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Tongue33

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Cichla Section members that are going to contribute to this thread DO not pass up this first post READ IT PLEASE before responding to the following arguments, debates and information pool of context we are about to get involved in! Thanks!


Ok.

I think this thread is something we should all direct our concerns, questions opinions and known facts on this species.. Why?

Well the reason and meaning is obvious to some of us and if not I am providing links for threads that we all have questioned one another in and I expect and hope you guys will do the same. Please add only thread links to mfk threads on the subject.

Image sites and such are cool.. But the filter will not allow cert words so other sites links could cause issues for the rest of us trying to read.

Now There are Quite a few people on the site that have not only extensive experience with Cichla as well as Strong Book knowledge. And There are a few that have even collected and researched in native lands.. I expect and am requesting that all of you chime in..

Please lets keep the general family setting that we here in the Cichla section have established. I feel that we have had arguments here that no other section on the site could have as many get locked.. Thought here in this section we have maintained some pretty deep and strong arguments without a closed thread for a minute now.

I respect you guys and have high regards to the info given out on a regular basis except in a few instances, which have slowed the last week.

Though I believe we are all in agreement that the ID of Orinos lately has been in Question so lets get it on! ;) Respectfully of course.

Ok lets begin. Here are a few links as to reasoning for this thread
 
My Id thread
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162503

Sabotages Are these Orinos thread Hope you don't mind man

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163901

yourbestfriend latest thread 'WHY"

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163960

Oscarboyz "Feeding Bay Orinos" Thread
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163783

Itsalmosteasy's "My Cichla Thread"
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163339

Haynchinook334's "Monos or Orinos" Thread.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161992

Ok. I would like Calisucks threads that were a big part of the beginning of this confusion added to if someone would. I am going to lunch with my wife. When I get a chance My initial input will be on "Distribution sources "Namely Rivers and lakes to a very vague point." As I am still reading on this.. But have a few different areas that completely make Orinos look way different.
 
not mine.... just good research.... more to add later!!!!:D
by the way.... tongue33, this is going to be a very good thread leading into a sticky if everyone plays theyre cards right.....;)

One group of cichlids from South America has become well known — the "peacock basses" of the genus Cichla. They have even been introduced into Central America (and other tropical bodies of water) specifically for this reason. And what makes them great sports fish also makes them inappropriate for the home aquarium unless you have suitably large aquarium space available and are willing to accept the challenge of raising and attempting to spawn truly large cichlids.
These fish are on the short list of the world's largest cichlids, which they share with "Cichlasoma" (Nandopsis) dovii, "C." (Nandopsis) umbriferum, and that giant from Lake Tanganyika in Africa, Boulengerochromis microlepis. Despite their imposing adult size and their rather restricted dietary preferences — they are piscivores (fish eaters), although not exclusively so — juveniles and subadults are still imported and made available for sale in pet shops.
While I appreciate the beauty of these fish, I cannot recommend them to any but the most dedicated (and perhaps foolhardy!) of South American cichlid aficionados who can provide the space and chow they need. Nevertheless, they have been kept successfully in aquariums, and therefore deserve coverage in this series.
I will do so in two parts, beginning first with the taxonomic and systematic status of these fish, including unfortunate conservation situations resulting from the intentional introduction of peacock basses into various parts of the tropical world to support sports fishing. If you find this dry, I apologize — but hang in there for part two, in which behavior in the wild and maintenance in the aquarium will be covered.

How Many Cichla Species?
Again, we look to Kullander's (1986, 1989) recent reconsideration of the genus and 15 nominal species, of which only two names, Cichla ocellaris and C. temensis, are applied to Cichla species in the aquarium trade. These include C. argus Valenciennes 1834, C. atabapensis Von Humboldt 1834, C. bilineatus Nakashima 1941, C. brasiliensis Schneider 1801, C. intermedia Machado-Allison 1971, C. monoculus (Spix 1831), C. multifasciata (DeCastelnau 1855), C. nigrolineatus Ogilvie 1966, C. ocellaris Bloch and Schneider 1801, C. orinocensis Von Humboldt 1834, C. speciosus (Muller and Troschel 1849), C. temensis Von Humboldt 1834, C. toucounarai (De Castelnau 1855), C. tucunare Heckel 1840, and C. unitaeniatus Magalhaes 1931.
Of these, Kullander has boiled them down to five valid nominal species — C. intermedia, C. monoculus (synonyms C. toucounarai, C. bilineatus), C. ocellaris (synonym C. speciosus), C. orinocensis (synonyms C. argus, C. atabapensis) and C. temensis (synonyms C. brasiliensis, C. tucunare, C. unitaeniatus). But he suggests (Kullander and Nijssen 1989) that further study might expand this list to 11 valid species. Part of the confusion results from loss of the original holotypes — the specimens used for classification — due to World War II bombings of German museums, and/or lack of locational data.
For aquarists, the list of expected species includes C. monoculus from Peru (possibly Ecuador, Bolivia and western Brazil, but these may be yet undescribed), C. orinocensis from Venezuela and Colombia, the true C. ocellaris from the Guyanas, C. temensis from the Brazilian Amazon (and the Rio Orinoco, Machado-Allison 1973), and C. intermedia, also from Venezuela. Of these, C. temensis and all the other Cichla species (all resembling the hobby "C. ocellaris") are most easily distinguished.
With Cichla temensis we have a relatively slender cichlid with much smaller scales (Kullander 1986) and a distinctive color pattern consisting of an overall gray-black body punctuated by three black vertical bars on the flanks and overlaid with light gold spots, at least as juveniles and subadults (up to 6 to 8 inches). Recent photos in Glaser and Glaser (1996) suggest that huge adult C. temensis may actually lose the spotting. However, I've seen some freshly wild-caught (hook-and-line) Venezuelan C. temensis, taken along with huge C. orinocensis from the same location, that most definitely showed the characteristic spotting pattern and were easily identified. The American aquarist Jeff Cardwell (personal communication) has likewise taken both C. temensis and C. monoculus together in the Brazilian Rio Negro.
Cichla ocellaris and C. monoculus are most similar to each other and, particularly as juveniles, share similar coloration — principally three partial black vertical bars (or spots) on a brassy body color. Adult C. monoculus, according to Kullander (1986), have wider and longer bars that extend from the point of dorsal fin insertion downward, in contrast to the appearance of those of C. ocellaris.
According to Machado-Allison (1971), in adult C. orinocensis three large ocelli (eye spots) replace the three vertical bars along the middle of the sides, whereas C. intermedia (named as such because it is intermediate in color pattern between C. temensis and C. orinocensis) has numerous (more than three) short bars. (All Cichla species sport a distinctive ocellus just above the middle of the base of the tail fin.)
However, identification based on color pattern is not that easy or reliable. Complicating this simplistic picture are the dramatic variations of color that accompany the widespread distributions of all of these species (i.e., see Kullander 1986 regarding C. monoculus). Not only is the base color variable (olive green to orange to yellow), but the darkness of the bars and the extent of spotting on the back differs from population to population. I refer you to any of the following picture resources — Axelrod (1993, though I dispute some of the identifications), Stawikowsi and Werner (1988), and, most recently and most particularly, Glaser and Glaser (1996) — for a photographic stroll through the possibilities.
Actually, the most astonishing catalog of populational differences appears in Schomburgk's 1843 treatise on the fishes of Guyana. He recognizes and figures (all hand-colored prints!) no fewer than four "species"' of "Cychla," as he calls them. Interestingly, he lumps the four pike cichlids (Crenicichla sp.) he catalogs from Guyana in his genus "Cychla." Indeed, several described "species" of Cichla (e.g., chacoensis Holmberg 1891, conibus De Castelnau 1855, labrina De Spix 1831, niederleini Holmberg 1891) have since been correctly reclassified in the genus Crenicichla (Ufermann et al 1987).
Moreover, all Cichla species experience profound changes in coloration as they grow to adulthood. For example, Kullander and Nijssen (1989) describe these changes for C. ocellaris. Young fish up to about 2¼ inches sport three dark spots on their flanks (in addition to the tail fin ocellus) that then expand to become partial vertical bars. At about 2½ to 3 inches, spots develop on the back and sides, only to disappear at about 3½ to 4 inches. Specimens of 6 1/3 inches in length or longer develop an ocellated spot near the top in bar three (closest to tail). The color pattern continues to change as the fish continues to grow, and changes still further in reproductively active (courting and breeding) individuals.
Lowe-McConnell (1969) also noted developmental changes in coloration in this species. And Schroder and Zaret (1979) have described in detail the progression of patterns from two-week old larvae to mature adults. Similar color changes have been noted and described for C. monoculus (Kullander 1986). Glaser and Glaser (1996) include photos of both juveniles and adults for a number of populations and species of Cichla, and the developmental differences are often astonishing.
Schroder and Zaret (1979) believe that the initial "striped" pattern facilitates schooling behavior, and that when the fry disperse (11 to 15 weeks old) to begin a solitary existence in the vegetation along the shore, the barred juvenile pattern develops. Because the youngsters at this point in their lives are relatively stationary, rarely venturing out more than a few feet from the plants, the barred pattern serves them well as camouflage. At this point, the tail fin ocellus develops along with several (soft) dorsal fin ocelli.
Schroder and Zaret (1979) have described the dorsal fin erection display that small C. ocellaris respond with to the approach of larger, potentially dangerous C. ocellaris. They believe that the behavior and the ocelli facilitate recognition of others within the same species, and prevents cannabalism of juveniles by adult C. ocellaris. The ocellus on the base of the tail fin apparently has another function, which we will review below.
We can certainly see the difference — as the aquarium trade has done for years — between C. temensis and the rest of the species. The best we can hope to do with the others, assuming reasonable export information (e.g., Peru versus Brazil versus Venezuela versus Guyana), is to assign a tentative identification based on site of probable capture.
We would then refer to the specimens as C. sp. affin. monoculus or C. cf. monoculus if they came from Peru, with the "species affinis" or "cf." designation suggesting the probable rather than absolute identity of our fish. Even this may be going a bit far. Various species have been imported for aquaculture even within South America (e.g., C. temensis from Brazil imported into Guyana, Lowe-McConnell 1969) and possibly (probably) have been released into open water. Well, we can simply call them "peacock bass" as the sports fishermen do, or "tucunare" (Brazil) or "lukanani" (Peru) or "pavon" (Venezuela) as the native fishermen do!

Another interesting aspect of the biology of the peacock basses is that they seem unique in appearance, perhaps even "out of place" to the casual fish observer, relative to the other South American cichlids. In fact, no less than the American ichthyologist C. Tate Regan (1906) placed the genus Cichla near the starting point for the evolutionary radiation of the South American Cichlidae, with Cichla splitting off first from the ancestral New World cichlid, then the Chaetobranchus/Chaetobranchopsis lineage, and finally the Acara lineage, believed by Regan (1906) to be the "starting point for the evolution of the genera inhabiting South America."
And later, Regan (1920) intimated a possible link between Cichla and the haplochromine cichlids of Africa based on the structure of the ventral surface of the neurocranium (skull) that provides a "movable joint" for the upper pharyngeal jaw (known as the pharyngeal apophysis). Indeed, Stiassny (1982) confirmed the "Haplochromis"-type structure of the Cichla pharyngeal apophysis, but interprets this shared structure differently than Regan (see below).
Kullander (1983), like Regan, regarded Cichla as a primitive genus among more advanced cichlids. Liem (1973), too, regarded the "primitive" state of the pharyngeal jaw apparatus in Cichla as evidence for this cichlid's overall evolutionary primitiveness.
Stiassny, however, has concluded otherwise. Rather than interpreting the "primitive" anatomy of Cichla (and the closely related genus Crenicichla — pike cichlids) as evidence of their base position in cichlid evolution, she suggests that Cichla (and Crenicichla) are highly advanced cichlids. She develops that argument in a series of papers (Stiassny 1982, 1987, 1992) that constitute an exhaustive comparative anatomical study of Cichla and various other evolutionary key New World and Old World cichlids.
In a nutshell, Stiassny argues that Cichla, unlike the majority of piscivorous cichlids, swallows its prey whole rather than using the pharyngeal jaw apparatus to process the food. She cites observations by Pellegrin (1903) and Chichoki (1976) that juvenile peacock bass can and do take prey of up to one-third of their own length.
And, in specially preserved Cichla specimens used for study, completely intact prey fishes are clearly visible in their stomachs. In swallowing prey whole, Cichla (and the pike cichlids, Crenicichla sp., which Stiassny believes is the sister group to Cichla) are unlike the rest of the South American Cichlidae. Far from being a "primitive" cichlid, peacock bass should be regarded as highly specialized riverine predators that have secondarily acquired a set of seemingly primitive anatomical features that enable them to make use of relatively large prey fishes. The term "atavism," meaning "re-expression of ancestral morphologies," is used to describe the reappearance of a character state typical of a remote ancestor (e.g., the ancestor of all cichlids) in an individual that really shouldn't have it (e.g., a modern cichlid).
If Stiassny is correct (and I believe she is; her anatomical analyses are painstakingly detailed), this is another reason why the peacock bass have appeal for those aquarists who prefer large, predatory aquarium fish. And there's more. The peacock basses are some of the most beloved freshwater sports fish in the world.
 
Ok.

We all know that Cichla Identification can be difficult and many times impossible even for "The Pros"

So In the past we have seen some mis ID's by newer members and newer Cichla Keepers AND The people we all think SHOULD know the answers to this question. The reason is.. Cichla is a family of fish that unlike most Cichlid family they look extremely similar in ALL areas including color.. IN which an experienced... NOT studied eye.. But experienced eye can usually pick out certain aspects that make one species more Identifiable from another.

Colors between several species are hard enough to tell Let alone one species. Most all of the species are spread throughout different areas of South America.. So the readily available VARIANTS of most species have become increasingly easier to Identify within reason. Though Notice I said Variants. Variants can happen in the same body (Local) of water and in different Bodies of water. Hence a Cichla species from one river or lake can be the same species in another river or lake 100's even 100 miles away.Yet by looks you would say they are a completely different species. Anyone think this is a valid statement?

Now I am not a professor in this.. I am still reading about the rivers and Lakes in The South American water systems... Though You will notice that many of these Rivers.... Have Cichla inhabiting them.. In fact The Orinosensis is not collected from just one area or river. IN fact if you read the research paper quote above in Mjuniorc's post they collect them from across 2 different Countries all together :) And like people and animals.. Sun, earth weather... Mother nature in general has effects on living creatures and they look different in some way than there same species in other areas ;)

I will continue on this line here shortly I need to go to work.. I enjoyed the Read Mjuniorc ;) Thanks.
 
wow lol alot to reading in this thread lol where are all the pics!!??? lol .. better get some coffee.. i will add my two cents at a further time.. i need to gather some pictures and info ;)

tongue (you have to give me your real name) i love the thread but i have a feeling its going to be a 4 man convo :(
 
bOOsteN aUdI;2079230; said:
wow lol alot to reading in this thread lol where are all the pics!!??? lol .. better get some coffee.. i will add my two cents at a further time.. i need to gather some pictures and info ;)

tongue (you have to give me your real name) i love the thread but i have a feeling its going to be a 4 man convo :(


Joey ;)

I am relying on you for a grip of the the conversation :D I know pics are needed :D I wanted to kick off the beginning with the Points and stuff in word first. If it is just us ... So be it. I know that I will learn as you have had access to data and things that I don't and... Stuff that is not available on the web. I hyave learned from you as well as the others so I'm cool with that :D.. I have a couple papers... But Still Finding more is insane!!:D
 
no, ill be joining this discusssion as well, i just have a 5 day old baby and this is a allot if reading for limited sleepand need some pics......Im one of the original pbass chumpys with dieselmack etc..ive had azuls, tems,orinos,ocellaris and monos and sold them all for $,000's of dollars..getting back into the game again after a year or so..I have 4 wild peru monos from rapps, 3 pinimas from rio tapojos, 1 rio ventauri tem from brian scott and 2 orino possibly "2 little to tell..So ill be donating some knowledge as I can,, so this fish by far is my favorite

male wild caught from lake wifeomine in brazil.......
 
Variation

Cichla, which are known as Peacock bass or Tucanare, are a major food and game fish in South America.

The genus is widely distributed in the Amazon, Tocatins and Orinoco river basins, as well as some of the smaller Atlantic drainage rivers. Many Cichla species have also been transplanted into other waters for fishing and food.

However, despite their importance, their taxonomy has been confused and traditionally just a few species with apparently variable markings have been identified.

This study separates the fish into a number of distinct groups. Six species - Cichla ocellaris, C. orinocensis, C. monoculus, C. nigromaculata and two new fish, C. kelberi and C. pleiozona - have a juvenile colour phase consisting of three dark blotches on the side and a dark band connecting the posterior blotch to the dark blotch at the base of the caudal fin.

The remaining nine species have three dark blotches on the flanks, as well as a dark horizontal band running from the head to the dark blotch at the base of the caudal peduncle. This group includes: C. temensis, C. intermedia and seven new species: C. mirianae; C. melaniae; C. thyrorus; C. jariina; C. pinima; C. vazzoleri and C. piquiti.

Cichla have lateral line scale counts ranging from 67 to 128, a span that is comparable only to the Crenicichla and Teleocichla genera in the whole of the neotropics.

Those with fewer, larger scales include C. ocellaris, C. orinocensis, C. nigromaculata, C. monoculus, C. kelberi, C. pleiozona, C. melaniae and C. thyrorus, which typically have less than 90 E1 scales. The smaller scales species are typically more slender fish and have more scales in the lateral line series.

Colouration is clearly of importance in the group, with marked differences in both adult and juveniles of different species. However, unfortunately for fishkeepers, colouration can vary according to condition and sex, making identification from colouration alone tricky.

"Each species of Cichla possesses a distinctive adult colour pattern, which is more contrast rich in males, and in most species includes large black blotches on the side lined with silver or golden. These ocellar markings derive from vertical bars and are believed, in the absence of systematic gonadal or field behavious surveys, to represent breeding markings.

"The only exceptional species may be C. piquiti. In C. kelberi, C. monoculus, and C. pleiozona, the breeding colouration is dominated by intensified blotch-like dorsal portions of the vertical bars. Cichla orinocensis and C. mirianae are unique in possessing a series of three distinct ocellated blotches along the middle of the side, formed directly from the juvenile lateral blotches."

"ORINOCENSIS" in comparison with color variation with "MARIANAE a.k.a FOGO"
[SIZE=+1]Color Variation[/SIZE]

Tapajos1.jpg

Cichla mirianae from the São Benedito (tributary of the
Teles Pires or upper Tapajos). Photo by Pousada Thaimacu.

Tapajos2.jpg

Cichla mirianae from the São Benedito (tributary of the
Teles Pires or upper Tapajos). Photo by Pousada Thaimacu.

Tapajos3.jpg

Cichla mirianae from the Teles Pires, above the corredeiras near Alta Floresta.

Tapajos4.jpg

Cichla mirianae from the Teles Pires, above the corredeiras near Alta Floresta, immature.

[SIZE=+1]Identification[/SIZE]

Cichla mirianae is most readily distinguished as adults by the presence of three irregular black spots on the center of the flank. The only other species which also exhibits this general appearance, C. orinocensis, is only distributed in the Negro and Orinoco Rivers.

[SIZE=+1]Ecology[/SIZE]

We encountered C. mirianae mostly in the lagoons of the river, or where the water was slow in the main channel.

Tapajos-habitat.jpg

Habitat of C. mirianae near Alta Floresta.

[SIZE=+1]Distribution[/SIZE]

C. mirianae is distributed in the Teles Pires and Juruena Rivers (upper Tapajos) and their tributaries. It is unclear at what point going downriver C. mirianae is replaced by C. pinima, but the fish at Itaituba appear to be C. pinima. Interestingly, Kullander & Ferreira (2006) report that C. mirianae is also distributed in the Xingu River and its tributaries upstream of the confluence of the Fresco River. Given how different these two fishes appear, it would be hard to mistake the identification of these fishes and their distribution (assuming the localities reported for the Xingu C. mirianae are accurate).
 
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