Naso Tang VS Alge

That tank is only one of many marine/reef set ups that he has as personal tanks, the one shown is approx 10 ft long, 8 ft wide, and 4 ft high. Approx 2,000 gallons. Certainly it's a huge system, but there were a ton of fish in it for many years as well. Unfortunately after running successfully for 13 years that tank crashed due to a freak mechanical failure. Talk about total devastation. Pablo took it pretty hard & gave that tank a break for a couple of years, and just recently he's began rebuilding it.

But as previously stated, I know numerous hobbyists that feed NLS exclusively in tanks ranging from 45 gallons, to 100+ gallons.
I realize that for many it's hard to rap their heads around one food offering all the nutrients these fish require to thrive in captivity, I didn't buy into it for a long time myself. lol But seeing is believing.

I see the same thing on the freshwater side, lots of non believers, but also lots of hobbyists that feed it exclusively, and have been for many years.

I will add as well that I think vitamin soaks in Selcon are very beneficial no matter what you are feeding your livestock, including NLS.

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Liquid vitamins such as Selcon, Boyd's Vitachem, etc, don't even come remotely close to the nutrient levels found in NLS. Trust me, I have seen the analysis of NLS foods, performed by a non-biased 3rd party accredited institution. Pablo didn't even realize they had tested the food until several yrs later.

I have always advised the use of liquid vitamins if one is feeding frozen exclusively, but if one is feeding NLS (even as only part of the diet) it is a complete waste of money.

RD.;4892041; said:

That tank is only one of many marine/reef set ups that he has as personal tanks, the one shown is approx 10 ft long, 8 ft wide, and 4 ft high. Approx 2,000 gallons. Certainly it's a huge system, but there were a ton of fish in it for many years as well. Unfortunately after running successfully for 13 years that tank crashed due to a freak mechanical failure. Talk about total devastation. Pablo took it pretty hard & gave that tank a break for a couple of years, and just recently he's began rebuilding it.

But as previously stated, I know numerous hobbyists that feed NLS exclusively in tanks ranging from 45 gallons, to 100+ gallons.
I realize that for many it's hard to rap their heads around one food offering all the nutrients these fish require to thrive in captivity, I didn't buy into it for a long time myself. lol But seeing is believing.

I see the same thing on the freshwater side, lots of non believers, but also lots of hobbyists that feed it exclusively, and have been for many years.




Liquid vitamins such as Selcon, Boyd's Vitachem, etc, don't even come remotely close to the nutrient levels found in NLS. Trust me, I have seen the analysis of NLS foods, performed by a non-biased 3rd party accredited institution. Pablo didn't even realize they had tested the food until several yrs later.

I have always advised the use of liquid vitamins if one is feeding frozen exclusively, but if one is feeding NLS (even as only part of the diet) it is a complete waste of money.

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I looked up his tank and got a little more information on it. I agree there are a ton of fish in there. What really stands out is how big those Sohals are compared to some very big fish.

Wow, losing that tank would be very hard, devastating really.

I have fed NLS exclusively on a cichlid tank for the time I had it running and all my fish were quite healthy. Obviously they are not as difficult to keep healthy as saltwater and that is where I see a difference.

I just read another article on WetWebMedia written by Pablo that is very interesting. I recommend others to give it a read. It obviously supports your point of view.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/basicfdarttepoot.htm

RD.;4891903; said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree, but it's all good.
I know that you gents are doing what you feel is the best for the fish,
which at the end of the day is the most important thing of all.

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Missed this post before...

We are in 100% agreement here. That is really what we want. Happy, Healthy fish Period.

His office manager will probably skin me alive if she finds out that I posted the following pic, but it shows just how big some of those fish are.
It also shows how small his feeding access is, and the same funnel he uses to pour pellets in as shown in Bob's photo. The only other access to this tank is from outside.









Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration.(as in a few weeks/months) At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point Pablo had kept them thriving in captivity for 5 years.
Something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago.

Anyone can keep a Moorish Idol or Achilles Tang alive for a brief period of time, but very few manage to keep these fish alive & thriving for years. In the past, many hobbyists would treat these fish with a cut flower mentality, and simply replace them with a new fish when they withered away. Today, there are many hobbyists world-wide that have found that IF their fish are provided with an optimum diet, and if their fish will eat it, they too can keep these "doomed in captivity" species, for years.

What many in this hobby state can't be done, Pablo has already been doing, for many years.


BTW - that nutrition article that you linked to above was originally written due to a personal request by the head editor of Aquarium Fish International, with a condensed version being printed in their Oct. 2007 issue. Having gone to the trouble of writing such an exhaustive work, one that he would accept no payment for, Pablo decided to post it on his website, and Bob later posted it on wetwebmedia.



A lot of people here on MFK know who I am, I've never hidden the fact, but seeing as I seldom post in this area of the forum, for those that don't know I should also mention that not only am I friends with Pablo, I also distribute his foods to retail stores up here in Canada. While there are those that will play the salesman card due to the fact that I do have a vested interest in this subject, I have yet to come across anyone that can actually argue the nutritional aspects of his foods. I am not here attempting to glean new customers, I'm here to try & advance the hobby by showing others what can be accomplished by something as simple as tweaking their feeding regimen.


This hobby has come along ways over the past 50 yrs, and I personally welcome anything that can improve someone's fishkeeping experience. Today we have a multitude of filtration methods & equipment that is offered the hobbyist, controller units that can monitor & control everything from the tanks temperature, lighting (with dawn/dusk/moonlight options), pH, etc., and high quality aquariums that come in all shapes & sizes. Even the species of fish now available to the average hobbyist is something that many fish keepers only dreamed about 50 yrs ago. The science of fish nutrition has also vastly improved from what we knew 50 yrs ago, and certain myths & misconceptions from the past, have now been proven to be false.

It's also becoming more clear with each passing study that many of the health disorders that we see in both freshwater and marine fish are directly related to an improper diet. While certain foods may in fact keep a fish that's kept in a totally non-stress environment, healthy, place that same fish under any type of stress (and there are many forms of stress that can take place in a glass cage) & that same food may fail miserably. The problem lies in the fact that when a fish does become ill, most hobbyists aren't going to be able to pin-point the exact cause, especially if it's nutrition related.

Excellent post above, I think that everyone should have a read.

RD.;4891903; said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree, but it's all good.
I know that you gents are doing what you feel is the best for the fish,
which at the end of the day is the most important thing of all.

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My fish get more NLS than anything else, but it is hard to say that you can deny an animal of 90% of its daily activity without damaging it somehow...psychologically or physically.

That being said, I cant believe that I am the one arguing with you about NLS, I push it on everyone, and love the stuff...I just wouldnt not supplement.

+1 to the above though, worth a read for everyone. I already knew about the idols, and I tell that story every time anyone asks about the food.

If a wild fish is going to be damaged psychologically or physically, I would think that placing that fish into a small glass box, and forcing it to live with tankmates that you personally choose, would have a far greater affect on that fish than its diet.

I have no problem with those that feel that they need to supplement their fishes diet (for whatever reason) but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that by doing so we are somehow replicating the fishes natural environment. The same holds true for all wild caught fish, freshwater & marine. If we are to be honest with ourselves, if that's truly how one feels then these fish should be left swimming in the wild.

Which perhaps isn't such a bad idea .....

RD.;4897620; said:

If a wild fish is going to be damaged psychologically or physically, I would think that placing that fish into a small glass box, and forcing it to live with tankmates that you personally choose, would have a far greater affect on that fish than its diet.

I have no problem with those that feel that they need to supplement their fishes diet (for whatever reason) but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that by doing so we are somehow replicating the fishes natural environment. The same holds true for all wild caught fish, freshwater & marine. If we are to be honest with ourselves, if that's truly how one feels then these fish should be left swimming in the wild.

Which perhaps isn't such a bad idea .....

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The natural feeding is something we can control to an extent. We should strive to keep everything natural as much as we can, if at all possible.

Obviously if we are to keep fish in our living rooms that glass box thing is going to happen. I also believe that we should be responsible aquarists in how we stock to not overly stress our fish. Again that is within reason and we are in agreement that we all do overstock(even under stocking our aquariums is overstocking in the wild obviously).

That is also why bigger is better when it comes to keeping an aquarium and being honest to people on what they can and can't keep within their specific size of tank.

RD, good point, but...what is your point now. What are you trying to get across to us?

The same thing that I have attempted to get across all along.

That you can't expect to recreate any of these fishes natural environment, in a 4-6ft closed system, such as a glass box. Nothing about that is going to be natural, including how the fish feeds, or what it eats. When one asks about the proper dietary care of a Naso Tang most so called experts will suggest something along the lines of the following.

Feed a diet rich in vegetable matter including frozen herbivore foods, dried seaweed, or live macro algae. Frequent feedings are necessary, as this fish grazes constantly. Dried seaweed or algae sheets should be provided daily.

Yet IMO that type of advice is a nothing more than a sure fire guarantee to a malnourished & unhealthy fish. While both freshwater & marine fish that have been classified as herbivorous grazers do in fact constantly graze on aquatic plant matter in the wild, it's the micro nutrients gleaned from animal origin that supply these fish with the essential nutrients for growth, repair, disease resistance, and to perform normal daily metabolic functions. Post #11 in this discussion shows very clearly how nutrient deficient washed seaweed alone can be.

The exact same thing applies to freshwater fish that have been classified as herbivores. Using Tropheus sp. one of the most herbivorous species found in the Rift Lakes, we now know that while algae may dominate the stomach contents of the majority of Tropheus, the actual foods that make them grow and thrive are insect nymphs and larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, micro-organisms, and zoo plankton, not vegetable matter.

These types of specialized feeding methods work in the wild due to the various micro-organisms of animal origin found within the aquatic plant matter, without those amino acids (protein), and fatty acids (lipids) these fish would not be able to survive, let alone grow, breed, and fend off disease.

Bob Fenner touches upon this in the following link. (where he also plugs NLS)

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso_lituratus.htm

"In the wild Naso lituratus mostly consumes Brown (Phaeophyte) macro-algae (e.g. the genera Dictyota, Sargassum), along with some Reds and Greens and some incidental and planktonic animal material. In captive settings, all sorts of foods, e.g. Mysid shrimp, Spirulina flake, Nori and other cultured or prepared for human-consumption algae are accepted. Feeding strikes may occur, and these should be met with foods soaked in Zoe, Selcon... vitamin prep. or appetite stimulants. Oh, and a "plug" for Pablo Tepoot's "Spectrum" fish foods... Have seen many fishes, including this and other tangs that you'd think would not be interested in feeding on pelleted foods, consume Spectrum with savor! And this fine line of foods is nutritionally complete."

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So while these essential nutrients are available to fish in the wild, feeding foods such as washed seaweed and/or nori in the aquarium does not mirror the nutrient levels found in these fishes natural diet in the wild, at all. Naso Tangs & Tropheus are similar in many ways, both species are from waters with high 02 levels, both are high energy active species, and due to their feeding techniques in the wild, both eat from sun up to sun down in order to glean enough nutrients to survive to the next day. In captivity we cannot feed on a constant basis for 12 hrs a day, nor do we have to, but what we can do in order to meet these high energy demands is feed a highly nutrient dense food, a few times a day. IMO the books & so called experts have it all backazzwwards.

If you want to feed nori, seaweed etc, that's fine, but those foods should make up but a small portion of the diet, while the nutrient dense foods should make up the bulk of the diet, as in captivity these fish are NOT eating from sun up to sun down, and in captivity the seaweed/nori that is being fed is completely lacking in the various micro-organisms of animal origin which as previously explained is actually more important to the health of these fish than plant matter.