Trimac Cichlid vs Flowerhorn. Pure Trimaculatus Cichid Video

So I take it that you prefer domestic discus and angels over wilds, correct? You know, those with "improved" color and shape?

I'm with Matt on this one...

I don't understand the point of line breeding Trimacs...any more than line-breeding anything else!

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I think that you understand it just fine, Matt, apparently you just don't agree with it.

Personally I have no issue with those that want to fix certain traits within a species for their own aesthetic pleasure. It offends me no more than those who utilize some form of selective breeding among their "prize" breeders. Who here breeds fish that they feel have the least desirable traits typically found within a species? Anyone? Or buys dozens of juvies (unrelated or otherwise) to grow out in a large system and only keep the strongest, largest, most dominant pair that initially forms? And uses only those fish to produce offspring? I'm guessing not too many hands are going up in the air.

Selective breeding and line breeding to fix certain traits has been taking place since man first domesticated fish. While I admit that I am not a fan of most designer fish, that has more to do with what I consider genetically weak/inferior specimens, than it does the looks of the fish.

When most hobbyists describe their "perfect" Trimac, they refer to color, body shape, fins, markings such as tear drops below the eye, etc. These are the traits that many people desire in a trimac, which is what the pyro trimacs seem to have. If the fish are genetically strong, what's the downside to this type of line bred domestic fish?

Tom, IMO the gent from Angels Plus said it best in the following comment.

Nature selects for their "wildness". Humans never select for this. It is impossible. Every selection we make is unnatural selection. In only a short 20-40 years, they would be completely unrecognizable in both looks and behavior. Our only chance for having wilds available long term is habitat preservation and limiting the collection.

I personally have one line of wilds that I have kept pure since 1987. I purposely turn over the lines as infrequently as possible in order to preserve the genetics, yet in only 5 generations, they changed immensely. Consider that I have many tanks to devote to projects like this. The average hobbyist would see them go downhill even quicker.

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The person that was debating with him lost me when he began comparing the African cichlid community, stating;

In the African Cichlid community the keepers classify the fish as per strain purity and regional description and strive to maintain the integrity of that areas traits. They strive to maintain the locale identity of the local subspecies.

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I'm not sure what planet he lives on, but it can't possibly be the same one as I do as the vast majority of African cichlid keepers world-wide wouldn't have the slightest clue as to the provenance of their fish, ditto to most other cichlid keeping enthusiasts in this hobby. For every cichlid keeper in this hobby that keeps wild caught fish from a known collection point, and/or their offspring, there are probably several million more that don't know, and don't care.

I'm not saying that this is a good thing, or a bad thing, I'm just sayin ......

I also believe that there is a common misconception in this hobby that any/all wild fish, are superior specimens to any/all domestic fish of the same species. This simply isn't true.

Anyone that has spent any time around an importers facility can vouch for that. I have seen wild fish that were freshly imported that I had zero interest in keeping in any of my tanks, let alone using in any kind of breeding project. And of course which fish in these tanks get picked over first? The largest, strongest, most dominant & most colorful specimens. Not the drab looking runts. From the very moment we as hobbyists begin hand selecting fish to breed, genetic drift begins from what one would typically see in a wild population of fish.

Unless someone plans on releasing pyro trimac back into the wild, I don't see any issues in someone line breeding a fish for a few generations to fix what many feel are some of the more desirable traits.

I've never heard of a pyro trimac, but I used to have a monster "perfect" glass banging trimac back in the day that was beautiful, extremely red and and all the traits you speak of. This was well before the days of flowerhorns and very few hobbyists new what Trimacs were. Over the years, I have seen terrible trimac stock pop up infrequently at LFS' around town. I assumed they were the product of inbreeding due to there lack of coloration or markings, however this could have been due to stress in hindsight. I am not a FAN of Flowerhorns or Hybrids in general (unless they are wild like crenicichla johannaXlenticulata), however I do understand why other like them. I'm glad somebody still appreciates this fish, because I still do...

From DJ/MC Decker

You got me, Neil

Especially with cichlids, though, I find the (technical and ethical) line between "line breeding" and hybidization a little too blurry.

Both have a place in our hobby...but neither are the same as trying to maintain wild-type provenance.

I also agree that the experience of being captive impacts the gross morphology of fish such that they're different in marked ways from their wild parents and grandparents in marked ways.

Matt

Aquanero said:

Every time I see your name in RED, I throw up a littel in my mouth. There's your new sig.

Just kidding, sorry I couldn't help myself. Congrats!

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