What would you do if rays became illegal where you live

What would you do if Stingrays became banned where you live


  • Total voters
    35

zapantha

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Oct 12, 2012
1,144
10
68
American Canyon
I fully see where Matt is coming from. But we all know situations where f&w, be they european, us or anywhere else, do not know how to deal with the issue without euthanasia. I have seen it here qith Lions, i have seen it in Hong Kong with people taking aro's to europe, etc, etc...

Say that one hobbyist has some illegal stock. Even so, odds are he is the best suited person to keep them untill they die ( that can be monitored ). Why the need to rehome? If someone has a ray, why the need to rehome said ray? What ensures it will be best cared for in the new place?

Why the useif atomic weapons for an issue that coild be dealt with a sling?

That is what i do not understand and consider a waste of resources, no matter the way one elians it.

Am talking about fish. A talking aout responsible owners who know husbandry.
Am not getting into dangerous animals and badly maintained animals.
I'd advocate really expensive permits, if the current $500 for a permit application doesn't cover the widespread use and monitoring of such permits, raise it I say. I'm pretty sure people would pay a pretty penny to keep stingrays in states where they're normally illegal. I'm not for widespread ban repeals, but why not allow those willing to shell out for f&w to monitor them while keeping fw stingrays to do so if they can offset costs.


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Zoodiver

As seen on TV
MFK Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,872
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Miguel, your comment about using a sling vs an atomic weapon is spot on. To me, the sling is the law. It's simple. Don't keep illegal animals. People with respect and common sense will follow.
As for the proper person keeping them, it's been my experience the opposite is true. The first thing I know as a fact about a black market animal keeper is they are willing to break the law. That says alot about the person. Why would I trust someone willing to break the law to follow permit regs after they already broke the law once? Chances are also that person is doing it for profit (and probably ducking taxes while selling illegal product).

Another comment was made by Mr. Allgood claiming intelligence making you better than the law. Hardly. That isn't how the law in the US works. You can't just follow ones you want to. In fact, most of the time someone who thinks they are smarter than the law really aren't. The animal restrictions aren't "punishing everyone because of a few idiots". Remember the laws aren't just there for the people. The law is protecting the animals you guys are claiming to care about. The invasive species comment is so far off I laughed. Lionfish are still all over in stores. Yet, I can't think of the last time I went diving in FL and DIDN'T see one. In fact, on the 16th of this month, FL started to instate a law banning all species of lionfish from being sold in the state. In fact, if fish aren't legal to have, fewer people without proper care knowledge would be able to buy them - and less would be turned loose for lack of a better known option by the owners.

That being said, another thing to consider is that it's not just guys/gals like us buying animals for sale. 90% of people who buy fish from a store have no clue what they are getting into. Can you imagine if FW rays were for sale all over the South. How many would die or get turned loose? Hundreds? Thousands? Is it better to restrict the sales of them to prevent animals from suffering in the hands of those who don't know how to care for them? What if they get loose in areas where they can thrive (more or less the Southern US)? Have you seen the damage lionfish have done in the past ten years? Can you imagine how much damage FW rays could do to our ecosystem?

Big picture.

Permitting is a WHOLE new group of issues. As someone who deals with permitting, do you as a ray owner really want to deal with cost and what it REALLY takes to moniter the animals on the permit. We're talking thousands of dollars (US). You'd be allowing agents to come into you home at any time 24/7 - 365 days a year to check to make sure you are holding up the regulations. You'd have to keep detailed daily records of daily husbandry to prove you level of care.
 

Mr. Allgood

Jack Dempsey
MFK Member
Feb 16, 2012
617
12
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Iowa
If you had read the whole thread you would have seen that I am for sensible regulation. I did neglect to repeat myself, and for that I apologize. Regulation is the only effective way to help keep threatening species out of the hands of idiots. I have had many opportunities to purchase illegal pets. Had I been an idiot, I may have taken one home not considering what I would do with it when it became too difficult for me to house. Now, playing the part of an idiot, I would have to get rid of my critter without risking getting caught. And what's the easiest way? Why just head on down to the river and turn em loose. Now just imagine if this idiot could legally sell his critter to a permit holder, his critter would have a good home and mr. Idiot could buy himself a couple dirty thirties of Natty Lite.
Now to get back on topic, since my rays are much easier to conceal than say a bear or gator, I definitely wouldn't give in to the man. I think the people that jump on other people when asking about rays in illegal states are likely NOT ray keepers. They may have A ray but I couldn't see a serious ray enthusiast dogging on someone just because of where they live.
 

tampa_bass

Gambusia
MFK Member
Nov 18, 2012
394
4
18
your girlfriend's
Miguel, your comment about using a sling vs an atomic weapon is spot on. To me, the sling is the law. It's simple. Don't keep illegal animals. People with respect and common sense will follow.
As for the proper person keeping them, it's been my experience the opposite is true. The first thing I know as a fact about a black market animal keeper is they are willing to break the law. That says alot about the person. Why would I trust someone willing to break the law to follow permit regs after they already broke the law once? Chances are also that person is doing it for profit (and probably ducking taxes while selling illegal product).

Another comment was made by Mr. Allgood claiming intelligence making you better than the law. Hardly. That isn't how the law in the US works. You can't just follow ones you want to. In fact, most of the time someone who thinks they are smarter than the law really aren't. The animal restrictions aren't "punishing everyone because of a few idiots". Remember the laws aren't just there for the people. The law is protecting the animals you guys are claiming to care about. The invasive species comment is so far off I laughed. Lionfish are still all over in stores. Yet, I can't think of the last time I went diving in FL and DIDN'T see one. In fact, on the 16th of this month, FL started to instate a law banning all species of lionfish from being sold in the state. In fact, if fish aren't legal to have, fewer people without proper care knowledge would be able to buy them - and less would be turned loose for lack of a better known option by the owners.

That being said, another thing to consider is that it's not just guys/gals like us buying animals for sale. 90% of people who buy fish from a store have no clue what they are getting into. Can you imagine if FW rays were for sale all over the South. How many would die or get turned loose? Hundreds? Thousands? Is it better to restrict the sales of them to prevent animals from suffering in the hands of those who don't know how to care for them? What if they get loose in areas where they can thrive (more or less the Southern US)? Have you seen the damage lionfish have done in the past ten years? Can you imagine how much damage FW rays could do to our ecosystem?

Big picture.

Permitting is a WHOLE new group of issues. As someone who deals with permitting, do you as a ray owner really want to deal with cost and what it REALLY takes to moniter the animals on the permit. We're talking thousands of dollars (US). You'd be allowing agents to come into you home at any time 24/7 - 365 days a year to check to make sure you are holding up the regulations. You'd have to keep detailed daily records of daily husbandry to prove you level of care.
I wish the permitting was easier and I have no problem having fish and game check on my animals. I had to do it years ago with endangered and native birds I raised and they were very pleasant to deal with.. My biggest problem is that if your an AZA accredited facility your exempt from a lot, if not all, of the permitting.. Now as you know it's near impossible for any private owner to gets this.. Also years ago it was over 8,000.00 per year to be an AZA Member..
Bottom line is if there's responsible owners who are willing to get permitted and keep records of their stock it should be a lot easier to obtain them..



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Zoodiver

As seen on TV
MFK Member
Aug 22, 2005
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AZA has nothing to do with permitting in the US, other than you can list your accrediation on the fed/state permit applications. AZA facilities all are required to carry the same permits for animals requiring them.
The 'downside' (if you want to call it that) is that facilities will be given preference to house specific animals vs the general public due to the budgets and level of care that can be provided in a majority of cases. Sure there are a handful of people here and there who might be able to do the same. But it's much easier (and cheaper) to moniter a facilities actions vs a private owner. Facilities also get the benefit of being for public education, which opens a door to specific permit required animals that a private owner will never be able to qualify for (IE: South American FW stingrays in Florida).

As an example of that, when I moved to FL I talked to the state about getting the permit to have Potamotrygon at home. I have a very deep background with them at home and for several accredited facilites all over the US. I've literally kept thousands of them, and of almost every species in the genus. I was even working at a public aquarium when I moved to FL. I was denied the permit. At that time, I could drive 15 mins down the road at see them at Zoo Miami - where they were being taken care of by one of my old interns - but I couldn't have them personally. Was I the problem? Clearly not. I would not willingly release them. I was one of the most qualified ray keepers in the state. I had the money to offer them anything they would need. But the state's ruling is for the greater good, not just me. It was there to protect the state's environment and the people living in the state.
 

tampa_bass

Gambusia
MFK Member
Nov 18, 2012
394
4
18
your girlfriend's
Maybe your right when it comes to aquatic species permitting. I remember like I stated earlier that many of the permits I tried to get for birds(like you with FW rays) if you read through all the requirements it would say your were exempt if AZA certified.. Again this was for birds so maybe it's different for aquatic species.. Like you I live in Florida and would love to have FW rays and it kills me everytime I see all the big leos and motoros sea world has.. LOL


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tampa_bass

Gambusia
MFK Member
Nov 18, 2012
394
4
18
your girlfriend's
I think too states like Florida pass these laws without doing enough research and then create a blanket law that encompasses all species instead of being more selective.. Kinda our fault too for not going to the hearings or banding together to state our cases before these laws are passed.. And let's face it. Florida's ecosystem alone is forever changed and will never be back the way it was even 20-30 yrs ago. It's kinda hypocritical IMO that they say aros,tigerfish,FW rays, etc. will ruin the ecosystem when the same people introduced an exotic (peacock bass) into Florida to make a sport fishery to bring in more money.. Ya I know it was said to be done to eat the tilapia but, really? They eat just as many natives as exotics..
Also the places where most of theses prohibited species would live would be in the lakes and canals that were built by the government and in themselves shouldn't even be in Florida and have far more damaging effect on our environment that exotic fish..


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Zoodiver

As seen on TV
MFK Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,872
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South FL
The peacock bass thing in FL always confused me. I can walk to the canal/ditch next to my place and see them, plecos, oscars and various central/SA cichlids (and an alligator and sometimes manatees). No native fish at all.
 
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