What would be good tank mates for a native rock bass?

Thanks Mike. They are definitely a striking species, almost glow in the dark colorful in person.

I think that I would be remiss if I didn't mention Brian's response to the quote of sandtiger's comment that I previously posted.

Brian went on to say .....

4 adult sunfish is not a high enough number in most tanks. Higher numbers are necessary to break down territorial aggression. With some smaller species, Bantams, N. Longears, Dollars, Orangespotted, I keep a dozen or even slightly more in a 55 gallon tank. With slightly larger fish 6 seems to be the minimum to break down territories but I often keep more like 8 or 9 fish around 5-7 inches long in a 55 gallon tank. I do currently have a 75 gallon tank with 10 even larger fish, all 7-9 inches long. I have a 300 gallon acrylic tank under construction which I plan to keep around 20-30 adult sunfish in. Some people will say these sort of numbers are too high to keep the fish comfortable. This may be true, I'm not so sure they are comfortable but they are all healthy and don't harm one another. I guess you don't want to give them too much space to get comfortable in is probably the best way to put it. With these high numbers though you do need to do more maintenance in the form of frequent water changes and good filtration.

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Brian Zimmerman is a great guy, really nice helpful person, and probably has more experience with the various native species than I will if I live to be 200. Having said that, as much as I agree with what he said in that discussion, I personally refuse to keep fish in that manner. I know from experience that if you remove all structure from a tank, you remove items that otherwise would have defined territory. I also know from experience that if you pack the fish in, what aggression does take place will soon be lost among the masses. These are basic techniques used among cichlid keepers for decades, and also used by many of the collectors/breeders of same. You don't see large concrete vats and/or ponds in Florida filled with rocks, caves, driftwood, etc, with small groups of fish. Those vats/ponds are filled with hundreds, in some cases thousands of fish, and no structure that would create territory to fight over.

For myself this is acceptable in short term grow out tanks, where massive frequent water changes keep optimum growth & overall health in check. But once fish reach semi adult, or adult stages of their life, that type of fish keeping just isn't for me.

Again, pounding a square peg into a round hole, just because I can, is for me no bueno.



And this is where the temp things sits for me as well. I know that it can be done, there is no question about that, the question is - should it be done? There are those that believe the life expectancy of this genus (as well as other species) is affected by water temperature. The higher the average year-round temperature of a lake, pond, river, etc the shorter the average life of the fish. Until someone can offer me some kind of concrete data to support otherwise, I'm going to continue to err on the side of caution. I'm certainly not going to condemn anyone who decides to keep native species at the top of their temp range year round, or CA's at the low end of their ideal temp range year round, anymore than I would condemn a breeder such as Brian for packing fish into what I personally consider to be less than optimum conditions. I don't like it, nor would I do it, but to each their own. I only offer my personal perspective so that others can consider the reasoning behind that opinion, and not just say that it's fine because some guy on NANFA said so.

And speaking of Brian, anyone looking for natives really should check him out.
http://www.zimmermansfish.com/Price.html

I love his site, but sadly he never seems to offer Rock Bass.

At least you live in the USA, where some of the most beautiful natives are generally easily acquired. Brian's strain of Missouri longears are particularly stunning.

Oh no doubt, I drool over the colors of them often. And several other of the sunfish he carries. Being west coast, all ours are introduced which means just pumpkinseeds and bluegills, with a very rare green thrown in.

RD. said:

I know from experience that if you remove all structure from a tank, you remove items that otherwise would have defined territory. I also know from experience that if you pack the fish in, what aggression does take place will soon be lost among the masses. These are basic techniques used among cichlid keepers for decades, and also used by many of the collectors/breeders of same. You don't see large concrete vats and/or ponds in Florida filled with rocks, caves, driftwood, etc, with small groups of fish. Those vats/ponds are filled with hundreds, in some cases thousands of fish, and no structure that would create territory to fight over.

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Yes, it's done a lot with Malawian cichlids, specially Mbuna. I don't like it. It looks like a busy hatchery than an ornamental tank. On closer look, the fish are under constant stress, moving constantly in musical chair to avoid getting nipped. Yes, you can achieve short term balance of power and stability by crowding fish. But the life span of fish constantly under stress is shorten. Often when one fish is weakened, the rest will gang up on him like Piranah. A slow domino killing field has just begun.

Having lived (and fished) in Florida for 5 years, I know that several species of sunfish and their relatives (including bass species) live in Florida rivers (see link). Several of these rivers are fed by warm springs and/or have year round minimum temperatures @ 70 or in the low 70s. So, I don't know to what extent more northerly living sunfish actually require winter water conditions and I wouldn't presume to argue that point, but there are certainly some southern populations/species that naturally live in year round warm water and would have no problem living in similar conditions in an aquarium.

There are also species in Central America and fish in the same family in SA, not all of them native as I understand it.

There is no argument that certain species of the Centrarchidae family can survive in warmer water. That's pretty obvious I would think.

The natural range of sunfish extends to northern Mexico where cichlid and centrarchlidae range overlap.

http://www.fow-ebook.us/images/Longear_sunfish_Figure 9_range map.gif

I'm not sure what your point is, but the fact that the extreme range of two fish overlap in nature, does not equate to them cohabitating well in the confines of a glass box. Most sunfish & CA/SA species have different ideal temp ranges, for feeding, breeding, etc. They also exhibit different behavioural displays, breeding/nesting techniques, some even grunt when courting. Does any of this matter? I guess that depends who you ask? For me personally it defeats the point of keeping natives. As previously stated I don't like it, nor would I do it, but to each their own.

If the OP wants to toss some cichlids in his 55 with his green & LMB that's his call. Good luck.

I've yet to try keeping native fish, though it's crossed my mind a time or two. If I got into that world I can't say my inclination would be to try keeping them with cichlids. But I have known people to do it who say it worked out for them. Like you say to each their own. I think some people just like to experiment to see what might work, even if it doesn't make sense from a different aesthetic.

But, an observation I've made before is some (or many) who think of themselves as geographical purists or who are adamant about not mixing continents, etc. do exactly in their own tanks what they object to in others by keeping (or recommending) any of a number of Asian or oriental cyprinids, anabantoids or others with new world or African fish, or they keep plecos with old world fish, etc. etc. I mean how many barbs, danios, rainbow/red tail/bala, sharks, white cloud minnows, etc. etc. have you seen in tanks with various SA, CA, or African cichlids or how many have you seen recommended as dithers for cichlids that live half a world away in the wild, sometimes by the same person who says you should never mix continents? A lot is just what you get used to or personal aesthetics. Otherwise, for example, why in the world is a fish like the giant danio, which amounts to a minnow from Sri Lanka, Nepal and similar places recommended as a dither fish for all manner of new world cichlids, or how does what amounts to an even larger minnow from Sumatra, Borneo, etc. (bala shark) find its way into all manner of tanks with fish from anywhere but it's native corner of the world?

Not saying any of that is what you do, Neil, but some combinations are so common that even many geographical purists hardly blink at the thought of such geographical oddities on one hand, but will censure some other geographical amalgam that's objectively no more odd, it just seems so to them. There's all kinds of fishkeepers. I don't try to account for them all, I just know what I like.

I've actually been following this thread all along but trying not to get in the middle of it. Have to say, though, that from my perspective, I have to wonder if a 55 gal tank is the right tank to experiment with. If I was going to do it I'd want a larger tank.