What is the consensus on mixing SA and African cichlids?

RD.

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spiff .... FYI yellow labs (L. caeruleus) are not herbivores, they're omnivores, and more insectivorous than anything.


Also, don't let the Rift Lake herbivores fool you, some of the most aggressive species of fish found in the Rift Lakes are classified as herbivores.
 

duanes

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I agree with RD about rift lake herbivores (and many omnivores), they are much like reef fish that may defend their algal farm/turf to the death.
Many Vieja types are also omnivores, with a bent toward vegetation, and I find them to be much more aggressive than the carnivores like Parachromis, that unless spawning, mainly attack simply to eat (or unless held in cramped quarters).
 

screaminleeman

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IMO, the biggest deterrent from mixing African and CA/ SA cichlids is far more diet related than any other variable.

Sure, water parameters are an obstacle, but only serious if you African is a wild caught type. The extreme majority of tank bred Africans are easily acclimated to water parameters acceptable to CA/ SA cichlids.

Aggression I have found only during breeding and far more African to CA/ SA.

IE. A Demosoni and an Electric Blue Johanni decided to breed in a 135 and wiped out every CA/ SA EBJD & EGBJD in the tank. Now, a pair of Severums are breeding in the tank, and the parents are defending the fry in a corner of the tank in a cave, but are NOT slaughtering the Africans.

Please note that I fed the dang EB Johanni and as many of the Demosoni x EBJ fry after growout to my Datnoids.

This IMO is the other major challenge with African cichlids.

IMO they are many times more likely to cross breed within their genus than are SA/ CA's.

IMO it is most practical to keep only male Africans with CA/ SA's as to not get nightmare to catch trash cross breeds all over your tank .
 

RD.

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IMO, the biggest deterrent from mixing African and CA/ SA cichlids is far more diet related than any other variable.
IMO the only way that diet plays into the equation is if one is discussing SIZE of food, and the potential for some of the smaller fish to overeat, causing gastric upset. The formula/brand of food if chosen wisely, is IME a non issue. I have fed the exact same brand/formula of food to multiple species of cichlids, from all points on the globe. That includes carnivores, omnivores, and even fish classified as strict herbivores. Sometimes keeping all 3 groups of cichlids in the same tank, a total non issue, all fish did exceptionally well as long as one removed most of the more common stressors, mostly aggression from tankmates.


As far as water parameters, I tend to disagree with some members that state that water values are a non issue. For certain species of SA fish I would disagree. Keeping many of SA species in hard alkaline water has proven over the years to be a very real issue, and that includes tank bred non wild specimens. IMO, and IME this is why certain soft water species are more notorious for sucumbing to certain ailments such as HITH. To those that disagree, You might be interested in reading this past discussion, taking note of what myself, Matt (dogofwar) and Tom (Aquanero) posted in regards to water parameters and how/why they can affect many of the SA species.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?548799-HITH-lATERAL-LINE-DISEASE-IN-CICHLA

Here's a portion of what I posted, which partially summerizes my thoughts with regards to water paramaters & some of the HITH prone SA species.

HITH is caused by stress, and in a glass box stress can come in many forms, for many different species of fish. In the case of blackwater species I agree with both Matt, and Tom, in that those species found in acidic blackwater environments do not always cope well with various parasites/pathogens found in non blackwater environments. Why do some fish get HITH while others kept in the same tank, and fed the exact same diet do not? As previously stated there is much more than just pH involved, and even tannins, various other natural turpines and chemicals found in indigenous plant matter may not only keep the pH buffered quite low, but in some instances (such as Terminalia catappa aka Almond leaves) some of these various indigenous plant matter are also known to produce antimicrobial activity that suppresses both gram positive & gram negative bacteria. Take those species out of that "protective" environment, and introduce them to paramaters outside their ideal range, and a fish that comes under stress (of any form) is going to be open for invasion from any number of pathogens that it would not normally encounter in the wild.
Start with post #6 (posted by Dogofwar) in the discussion linked to above and you just might be changing your opinion on water parameters, and certain SA species. IMO it's best to keep the species known to be sensitive to HITH in a more natural soft water setting, with non aggro species, AND keep their water quality pristine.


YMMV
 

spiff44

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Wow.. thanks for that RD! Guess I'll stick to SA/CA's... could you recommend parameters that would be conducive to the most variety of SA/CA cichlids? Is there a better middle ground parameter than the 7.5PH 75deg that I strive for, for what I'm trying to do? The temp swings wildly in the summer unfortunately... up to 90... but the change is always slow and steady at least. PH I work to keep as steady as possible as well.

I read your link above on HITH... scary stuff. I was disappointed to not see a single parameter statistic though.. it would have been interesting to see what everyone is using. (like before they got HITH, what they did to fix via parameters) I did focus on your comment that the HITH pathogen is probably always present.. coming from the gut of the fish. That's just one more thing to worry about with my tank. I think that I have always had Ich and columanairis in the tank. Never a full outbreak mind you, but if you fish watch long enough eventually you would see one that had something. I have done just about every cure that you can.. and since the temp gets so high in the summer.. i take advantage of that by using salt. I have also tried various cures... the stuff always comes back but has never been a tank wide issue. At any given time there might be a fish or two with a white dot on it and then you might not ever see that fish with it again. Any available cures that come in volumes that I can use I have tried. Do you have any suggestions on treating a pond volume on stuff like this? I'm running two 35watt UV's at 1000GPH.. a little less than their suggested disinfection flow to increase they're efficiency. Water parameters are always spectacular. Nitrate rarely goes above 5%. At this point i'm of the opinion that like a pond, this stuff is just always going to be there and if/when a fish weakens it might show symptoms so all I can do is mitigate as much as is reasonable.

I'm am seeing that the smaller fish are most susceptible so I'm slowly turning the tank into a bigger species tank. So many small fish I'm sure is adding to the issue. But I have noticed that some tiny fish seem to be extremely resilient to just about everything. X-ray tetra's and torchlight tetra's.. I can't say why, I don't think I had a single fatality so I might keep schools of them around since they're tough little bastards.

And then there are fish I learned to avoid... air breathing gourami seem fragile... I had gold, dwarfs, blues and opaline.. lost them all to attrition except the opalines. Yet never saw disease on them. Neon tetra's too.. never had them last more than a few months... but I have had the same school of torchlight tetras for over a year... they're almost identical other than the color.


Also these 2 Pearsei's never cease to surprise me... regarding my earlier comment about them trying to eat the green balls off the plastic sarragrasso plants because I thought that they though they were peas.. this isn't what they are doing after all. Now I realize that they're just using the peas as handles to thrash the plants to dislodge any food that is stuck to them. Smart little cookies! They are only doing this right after feeding when the plants have sunken food stuck in their branches.
 

Source310

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The africans will jump ship and land on your floor lol but not before they nipp your ca fins ..
Just from my expirience

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spiff44

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The africans will jump ship and land on your floor lol but not before they nipp your ca fins ..
Just from my expirience

Sent from my SGH-T999 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
LOl.. not a worry on my tank. They have 2 feet of space that they are welcome to for that. Its cool that some fish go crazy with it when they first realize that they can jump without hitting glass. When I had two comet goldfish in the tank, they always seemed to like jumping.
 

spiff44

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RD, any colorful, compatible cichlid suggestions that you think would work? I asked this in another thread and the best suggestions I got back (I think) were Severums and Chocolates. Do you think a couple of each would work? Are there better or more colorful alternatives?

Every time I research a cichlid I always get almost the exact same description so its hard to know what to think. Even every article I read on these Pearsei's say they are aggressive... if it wasn't for more detailed info from people who have them I never would have got them. It turns out they're not aggressive at all. Or maybe I'll be in for a rude awakening once they reach maturity?
 

RD.

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Wow.. thanks for that RD! Guess I'll stick to SA/CA's... could you recommend parameters that would be conducive to the most variety of SA/CA cichlids?
Not really, too long of a list and far too many variables involved. As an example, I learned years ago that the only way that I could keep fish such as discus, or even H. temporalis (Chocolate cichlid) is to let my water sit in holding tanks to allow the C02 to dissipate for 24 hrs, especially in winter months. The gas in my water lines in the winter will peel the slime coat off of certain SA species like they have been dipped in acid, leaving what looks like sheets of clear snot in my tanks. Other cichlids have zero issue, some breeding while my hands are still in the tank.

Lots of choices, lots of research ahead of you, and some of it is just trial & error.
 

spiff44

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Not really, too long of a list and far too many variables involved. As an example, I learned years ago that the only way that I could keep fish such as discus, or even H. temporalis (Chocolate cichlid) is to let my water sit in holding tanks to allow the C02 to dissipate for 24 hrs, especially in winter months. The gas in my water lines in the winter will peel the slime coat off of certain SA species like they have been dipped in acid, leaving what looks like sheets of clear snot in my tanks. Other cichlids have zero issue, some breeding while my hands are still in the tank.

Lots of choices, lots of research ahead of you, and some of it is just trial & error.

Gotcha... I understand. How about your personal observations and methods? What would you do if you wanted to keep the most about of SA and CA cichlids in one big tank?

More important to me, I curious what you might do if you were dealing with pathogens? I forgot to mention, I have already completely drained the tank too for this... then ran it for 2 days with a bottle of ammonia dumped in.. then let it recycle. Then added fish after they were treated for the umpteenth time but in smaller tanks once the recycle finished about a month later. I was seeing Ich again after another month. So that was a huge waste of time and effort.

I appreciate any insight you can give.
 
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