What is your rule(s) of thumb for mixing herps?

Some good points. On mixing i'd say-
Nothing that wouldn't cross paths naturally- (i.e. amazon tree boas and tree pythons from australia)

Even with the same species i'd keep them seperately unless you have a decent amount of experience and have already got to know the behaviour of the particular animal, then you'll be able to tell if its stressed etc. When you find some bloody faeces, which animal did it come from? It's always easier to keep seperate. Also when it comes down to breeding, better responses are usual with many species if they have been kept apart than if they were kept together.

Don't mix animals that can hybridize (e.g. similar species of darts)

Obviously there are animals that would do well or even benefit in colonies/small groups and these should be kept as such. It can be possible to mix species together but it can always be a gamble and is best to know what youre doing first before throwing them together if you have too. There are always exceptions to these though.

I gotta go to class in a few. I'll tackle this in a couple hours.

I don't even know where to begin.

Don't mix herps. Period.

I was at the baltimore aquarium a few weeks ago and checked out their Australia exhibit. I looking in a large enclosure and realized that I saw a few monitor species, bearded dragons, and even a venomous snake. Getting closer, I realized that each "section" of the cage was seperated by big rock structures with plexiglass 'windows' seperating each area from the next. The whole cage was decorated in a similar way to maintain the illusion that it was one contiguous habitat.

- Mixing is based on trial and errors. If a herp dies unnaturally, don't blame yourself. It happens. You didn't know any better, and hopefully you won't be an eedjit (idiot) enough to do it again.

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It is totally unethical to "trial and error" with live animals. They are living creatures that deserve the best care you can give them and treating them as experiments is totally inhumane.

- Feel free to mix non-predatory insects. For some reason, the presence of them reduce the stress of the animal, even if they can't consume them. I have yet to find out why.

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The presence of insects, whether parasitic or not, do NOT reduce stress in captive animals. That's complete nonsense and I have no idea where the original poster got this from.

- Use live plants if possible, they help to reduce the stress. Some species don't notice the difference between live and fake, others can. If you can keep live plants, by all means go ahead.

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Again, nonsense. Although some amphibians benefit from live plants in their enclosure (poison dart frogs, newts, etc) it doesn't mean they can not be kept with fake ones. As long as their environmental conditions are met, they could care less if the plants are fake or real.

- Don't get caught up with naturalistic environment. Practicality should be a priority. It is great if you want to, but if it become too difficult to maintain, then you know you went too far.

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In one breath you say to use live plants and insects, and in the next breath you say not to get caught up in a naturalistic environment? Which is it?

- One species of snake; one snake. Exceptions can be made with through research.

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I can only think of one species of snake that does "fine" in colonies in captivity, and that is a Tentacled Snake, a mildly venomous rear-fanged aquatic snake that feeds on fish and amphibians. You basically set up an aquarium for a snake. Their care requirements are very strict and reserved for advanced keepers.

PART 1: Mixing different species.

I generally feel this is a bad idea because quite simply, if the animals aren't mixed in the wild, they shouldn't be mixed in captivity. Furthermore, as I stated in another thread, mixing different species of herps together in captivity does not benefit the animals in any way. Ergo, the only benefits are those of the keeper. This situation is often favored because the keeper...:

a.) does not have adequate space for a second cage.
b.) does not have the money to afford setting-up a second cage
c.) is simply too lazy to set-up a second cage.

All of these are piss-poor reasons for attempting a mixed-species habitat, because it only shows that the keeper doesn't have enough willpower to wait until he can adequately house a second animal separately.

Of course, there are issues with mixing different species.

a.) the risk of transmitting parasites from one animal to another. While some internal parasites are species-specific, many (as well as the external ones, like mites & ticks) are not, and can easily be transferred from one species to the other. This problem is compounded by the fact that few keepers quarantine their new animals before putting them with others (mixed species or not).

b.) Territorial disputes. The males of many herp species do not like to share and will defend their home, even from other species. And size doesn't always matter. I once attempted to keep a giant day gecko with my crested gecko. Although the day gecko was twice his size, the crestie would chase him unmercifully on end and bite him whenever he got too close. There are countless other examples. And I've even seen instances where tortoises will bite the toes/tails of lizard roommates.

c.) Habitat differences. Attempting to house herps from different habitats only compromises the health of one or both animals. Unless you have a very large enclosure to simulate both environments, you can't have a humid rainforest and a dry savannah in the same tank. One combo that many people insist on is red-tail boas with ball pythons or burms. Its so absurd, because the only things these snakes have in common are that they're constrictors and that they all will accept rodents as a food source. Nevermind the size differences between the three and that they all live on different continents. And almost every instance I hear about these snakes being mixed together, it almost always results in one giving the other parasites. Other ridiculous combos are green iguanas with sulcata tortoises or bearded dragons.

d.) Dietary differences. Even if the animals seemingly get along for the most part, and their environmental needs are similar, you'll rarely find a match in the food category. Thus, there's always the chance of an animal eating food that is not healthy for it.

Now, many people will retort to all this by saying, "Well, I saw ____ and ___ living together and the --- zoo/petstore, and they seemed to be getting along great!" This mentality is based solely on the assumption that if an animal is alive and breathing, then it must be 100% healthy. As most intelligent people know, this is hogwash. I encourage the philistines to look closer at these situations. You will almost always notice that at least one animal is under-nourished, probably due to food competition from its cagemates, or simply that the habitat is not conducive to its needs (see points C & D). And you'll often observe that some of the animals are scarred or otherwise wounded, probably from squabbles and disputes with cagemates. Again, the health of these animals are compromised simply to save space.

"So, Ophiuchus, you're saying you can't mix any herps together successfully?" Not necessarily. I think the following criteria must be met before the idea is even considered.

a.) the animals are of equal adult size
b.) the animals can be found naturally in the same geographic area
c.) diets are near identical...or so different that neither animal will eat the others food
d.) obiviously, there is little chance of territorial or other hostile encounters between the two animals
c.) there are plenty of decorations & hiding places for each animal to escape the other visually, as well as physically
d.) all animals have been throroughly quarantined and are parasite-free
e.) the enclosure is large enough to accomodate the space of all animals as they would separately (i.e. if herp A needs a 20 gallon, and herp B needs a 30 gallon, and you wanna keep them together, put them in a 50 gallon)

One scenario I would be fine with is a large, naturalistic vivarium that housed green anoles, green tree frogs and Mediteranean geckos. All these herps can be found naturally in the Southeast U.S. and their habitats are similar enough that all needs could be met in a spacious enough enclosure. My only concerns would be parasite transference and simply that some animals would not get enough food. Careful monitoring and feeding practices could curb this, though.
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PART TWO: Mixing Members of the same Species

Most of my points for mixing different species are doubly important for mixing same-species animals, because territorial disputes are more likely between conspecifics, food competition is more likely and the risk of transmission of parasites is higher, since many parasites are species-specific.

The only possible benefit the animals gain from this is only if they are a sexually-mature pair that readily breed with each other. I say this only because in evolutionary terms, the overall success of a single animal is measured by the level of fitness it has (i.e. the number of offspring it produces over a lifetime). However, you could argue that by keeping the animal in captivity, you've removed it from the natural gene pool, so unless the offspring would be released back into their native environment, this act is nullified. Of course, point of views may differ. If the animal is only meant as a pet, then putting it through the stress of reproduction (more applicable to females) can shorten its longevity.

As far as any social structures or needs go, most if not all herps are solitary animals and are generally content if they do not have to go through the stress if sharing their habitat with others. Again, you could argue this regarding mature males, if you could prove that they actually enjoy the act of mating, and are not simply following instincts and behaviors preprogrammed into their physiology. Bottom line: herps don't get lonely.

A common response to this is the observation of many animals in one cage reclining together in one spot, perhaps "hugging" or laying on top of each other, giving the impression of comradery or affection for each other. Again, herps aren't capable of such endothermic emotions. They simply tolerate each other for the sake of enjoying a prime resting area. An example is putting a group of strange kids that have never met each other in a room. On either side of the room is a couch, but only one couch has a TV in front of it. Which couch do you think all the kids will congregate on? It's not that these kids like each other, persay; they simply all like to watch TV. Get my meaning?

...so that's my opinion on mixing herps. I know its an earful, but oh well....you asked.

Mixing probably isn't the best idea unless you have a huge cage where animals can stake out territories and avoid each other for the most part. But even then this can be iffy. Don't forget that many viruses and parasites can jump from species to species. I once made the mistake of keeping Golden Geckos and Day Geckos in the same large inclosure. I figured "Hey, ones nocturnal and ones diurnal, what could happen." That ended when my day geckos started losing their tails from nightly attacks by the Goldens.

Hey Ophi...glad we could agree on something!

TheBloodyIrish;798677; said:

The answer to all those questions I asked... it is not worth it. It look nice, but the constant care of a naturalistic vivarium setup is stressful for many people. I keep things simple. Potted plants, artificial pools, one or two layer of substrate -- usually two, one of substrate brick and the other being peat. From time to time, gravel or terra cotta balls for drainage. Many of the naturalistic ones I have seen have five or more layers -- and boy do they smell.

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Thats up to the keeper. If you're willing to make the effort, anyone can do a naturalistic set up, such as this one http://www.blackjungle.com/gallery/talltank/page1.html
It's just about how much effort you can/want to put in, this is a hobby, so your average person has a good deal of fun designing, creating and maintaining something like this. At the end of the day its up to
-do you have/are prepared to spend the time
-why do you have the animals - to breed, or just to have as a pet (obviously can be both)
-whether you want it as a display animal in a nice display vivarium, or you're happy with the newspaper substrate and a bright red plastic waterbowl.
-How much money you have- obviously a large collection would mean it gets quite pricey to have a lot of naturalistic vivs.

For things like darts, i think the extra effort is definately worth it, display animals in a display tank.

I am of an opinion that simplicity is the key, however.