Need some help on sump plumbing for 240 - with pics

[Jordan]

I picked up a used acrylic stand off CL. It is 3/4" thick acrylic and the measurements are 72"x30" x30". However, the overflow is the entire back of the tank and takes up 5" of depth. The tank was previously drilled with 5 holes. 3 still have bulkheads and the other 2 were plugged to test fill. I'm having a hard time deciding how to plumb it. I have never done a sump before so I'm new to this. Do I use the bottom two empty holes for the drain and the top 3 holes with bulkheads for the return? How would you plumb this? Use two top holes for drain and one top hole for return and plug the two lower ones? Any help appreciated, as this is my first tank over 75 gallons and not using canisters as filtration. I have some time to plan it out as I am currently sanding out scratches and still need to build a stand. Here are some pics and thanks for the help.

 

[ragin_cajun]

Sounds to me like you have a coast-to-coast overflow drilled with 3,drains and 2 returns--called a "beanimal" setup. You'd have 2 main drains running at full siphon and a 3rd emergency drain. Then 2 return lines that run to 2 pumps in the sump. Dead quiet. I've never done a beanimal myself, but I've seen plenty of videos and articles on the Internet.

 

[Stang725]

I can link some pics of my recent 240 set up that I am finishing up now. I have dual built-in corner overflows with 2-drains in the bottom of each.

I ended up connecting them together via a 1" pvc line inside the tank that goes into bulkheads drilled into the side of each overflow for equalizing levels.

I run:

Right overflow:
(1) 1" drain connected to 1.5" vinyl spa hose that has an in-line ball valve + another 3/4" drain in the same overflow that is my true emergency drain that never gets wet unless the strainer in this overflow and the others are significantly clogged; its right at the level of my overflow inlets. I'm also in the process of setting up a water sensor for that drain line that is tied into my house alarm for text message to tell me sh*t is about to go south...

Left overflow:
1" connected to 1.5" PVC that has an in-line spears gate valve for fine tuning that drain so the 3/4" drain in that overflow barely skims water from the surface and keeps both overflow's water level about 1/2" below the overflow inlets so there is no noise. This left overflow piping runs at roughly 30 degrees under my tank to the other side of the tank where my right overflow is going pretty much straight down into the sump.

I run a Laguna Max-flow 4280 and my sump is 70G... I have the right 1" drain closed about 1/4 and the left 1" is closed almost 50%... all 4 drain outlets are submerged into the sump (filter sock on the right side outlet, other side I don't run one because flow is lower and I also have filter sponges in my first section of sump) and so there is no noise, other than a waterfall area in my sump when the water level gets low.

I initially thought my pump would over-power my 1" lines, but you would be surprised at the flow-rates you get in a Herbie style system when under full siphon and how much head loss you get. Concern for herbie systems normally come from that fact that they are normally set up with only one emergency drain that is supposed to skim the top to establish the water level in the overflows, but going with another 2nd, slightly higher emergency drain is a tad safer. I also use 2" pvc and strainers in my overflows so not really much of a chance for immediate clogs because of total strainer surface area.

I have a full length 3d background in my tank is reason I can connect the overflows and still make it look nice. Some people don't have that option and if not connected, the 2 emergency drain method would not work and you are back to having to rely on a single emergency per overflow.

I return water through PVC going over the side of the tank in the back, again being hidden by the background.

I will prob just set up a build thread in a couple days and link it here to give you some ideas.

For your application, my recommendation would be to figure out a way where your primary flow is going into the sump with a full siphon and controlled via a valve to limit flow rates so your intake pipe is not getting air into it, same with outlets where they are submerged in your sump. Water flow in sch 40 PVC is not what makes noise, its air... no air in your system = no noise

 

[Jordan]

Sounds to me like you have a coast-to-coast overflow drilled with 3,drains and 2 returns--called a "beanimal" setup. You'd have 2 main drains running at full siphon and a 3rd emergency drain. Then 2 return lines that run to 2 pumps in the sump. Dead quiet. I've never done a beanimal myself, but I've seen plenty of videos and articles on the Internet.

So the two holes without bulkheads were returns? They are behind the overflow and at the bottom of the tank. Is this acceptable for a return, to return the water into the tank just above the substrate (albeit behind the overflow)? If the water is getting returned back into the overflow, how is the water in the tank cycling? Seems like you'd just be recycling the water that was initially behind the overflow through the sump forever. Also, a BeanAnimal design is what I was planning on after research and I thought it might have been set up initially this way, but the returns being so far below the water level are interesting.

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

[Stang725]

Just consider what happens when your pump goes off and how much water is going back into the sump through your return.... don't let that be an after thought.

Assuming you have 1.5" bulkheads, just going off looking at your PVC

I would:

1. Permanently cap that side hole
2. Use the two outermost for my two emergency drains, one with being slightly lower than the others so one skims and keeps your water level up so your overflow is quiet in terms of the water coming into it and the other as a true emergency.
3. Use that lower bottom hole (assuming it is = size to the other 3) as my primary drain with a filter sock in your sump (won't really need a valve on it, if you want to save money and don't have an extra valve). In terms of intake, I would literally just put a strainer straight into the bulkhead for that one
4. Use the upper middle as your return and put another bulkhead through your overflow wall and pick up a diffuser that directs water where you need it for flow. You would want the return near the water line so you break siphon when your water line stops flowing into your overflow, so consider a couple 45 degree junctions in your overflow piping to get the pipe near the waterline before going past the overflow bulkhead + a small hole in your return, inside the overflow that will allow the siphon to break so you don't overflow your sump

Unless you have a massive pump, that 1.5" fully open is going to flow a lot more water than your pump will be able to return when the intake is fully submerged and you may end up having to put a valve on it actually to slow it down... the more I think about it. You would prob be better off with a gate valve on the main drain and that skim pipe... Should be totally silent as long as you submerge your outputs in your sump.

 

[Stang725]

I would actually prefer your overflow setup to mine, makes me want to start over actually... but alas, mine's glass and was already drilled with the side overflows installed and I was too chicken to drill any more holes... maybe my next tank.

 

[Jordan]

I

Just consider what happens when your pump goes off and how much water is going back into the sump through your return.... don't let that be an after thought.

Assuming you have 1.5" bulkheads, just going off looking at your PVC

I would:

1. Permanently cap that side hole
2. Use the two outermost for my two emergency drains, one with being slightly lower than the others so one skims and keeps your water level up so your overflow is quiet in terms of the water coming into it and the other as a true emergency.
3. Use that lower bottom hole (assuming it is = size to the other 3) as my primary drain with a filter sock in your sump (won't really need a valve on it, if you want to save money and don't have an extra valve). In terms of intake, I would literally just put a strainer straight into the bulkhead for that one
4. Use the upper middle as your return and put another bulkhead through your overflow wall and pick up a diffuser that directs water where you need it for flow. You would want the return near the water line so you break siphon when your water line stops flowing into your overflow, so consider a couple 45 degree junctions in your overflow piping to get the pipe near the waterline before going past the overflow bulkhead + a small hole in your return, inside the overflow that will allow the siphon to break so you don't overflow your sump

Unless you have a massive pump, that 1.5" fully open is going to flow a lot more water than your pump will be able to return when the intake is fully submerged and you may end up having to put a valve on it actually to slow it down... the more I think about it. You would prob be better off with a gate valve on the main drain and that skim pipe... Should be totally silent as long as you submerge your outputs in your sump.

I like this idea, but I was wanting to use a 75 gallon as my sump, and with using the lower hole as the overflow, I am draining a 72"x20"x5" area of water, or about 32 gallons into my sump when the pump is off. That scares me a bit lol and I don't know if a 75 gallon sump can handle it.. Is there a way to use the bottom hole as my return? Can I run a piece of tubing from the lower hole up higher inside the overflow to limit the amount of water that will drain back if I use it as my return? It is the same size as the others - 1.5"

I have ordered a Fluval SP6 as my return pump so after head loss, I should be around 2200 GPH through the sump.

 

[Stang725]

Just put put some PVC piping in your overflow for that main drain to get it up a little higher vs. a strainer right at the bulkhead ( expand out to 2" from bulkhead going into sump and use a 90 and some pipe + 2" strainer) to get the intake at a level that will keep from sucking air into the intake in terms of when its in full siphon mode and your overflow is full (I would say you would want min of 4" below), but high enough to not drain your overflow to the point of flooding. Its kind of a simple math problem at that point, in terms of minimum volume of water in your sump to keep your return from sucking in air and what that delta is to your total capacity in your sump.

But in the long run it doesn't matter much which holes you use for return vs. drain... just that you plan out things like you are thinking about now... how much water can I drain into my sump and how can I get the max flow rate through the drains that your return will support without letting air get into your primary drain....

Also, I would not be busting out the PVC cement until you test things in final design mode because often you need to make small adjustments to piping height and its much easier to deal with it at that point. Just be mindful you will get some leakage from it and that your sump may eventually drain to the bottom point where you have an unglued junction.

I would also strongly recommend slip x slip bulkheads... really pissed that I didn't go that route because I have already had to replace one with a slip-slip after I couldn't stop it leaking through the threads and I cracked it trying to tighten it further. Now, the other is actually leaking on occasion and I am just hoping it eventually stops because its a pain to open things back up to replace those when you have a full tank of fish and not a lot of clearance with the stand. At that point, a wet/dry vac is your best friend....

 

[ragin_cajun]

I saw a video about this you might find very interesting.

He walks through how his entire tank works, with beanimal drain. He has an external overflow--I think your tank is an internal overflow. I don't know what the holes on the bottom part of your tank are for--looks to me from your picture they are behind the black acrylic panel that makes the overflow, so you wouldn't want your pumps returning water there. I think lots of people just run their pump returns over the top of their tank, or into the top. But, I digress.

I think you use the 3 big holes as drains for a Beanimal, leave the two smaller holes toward the bottom of the tank plugged up, and run your pump return lines over the top of the tank. Or you could drill the top of the tank and put bulkheads for your pump return line(s).

If I'm mistaken about the black acrylic panel going from top to bottom of the tank, then yeah, maybe those holes toward the bottom are penetrations for return lines. I could see somebody wanting pump return being on the bottom, thinking that keeps solids stirred up off the bottom, lessening the amount of vacuuming they have to do. Maybe it was for a closed loop system or something. I think they plugged them, brought returns over the top, and used the 3 large holes as 3 drains for a Beanimal, though.

Guy in the video also shows his siphon break on the return lines, so the tank won't backfill the sump through the outlet nozzles on his return lines. Check it out, it's a great video.

 

[mudbuttjones]

I just wanted to pop in and say I run a beananimal. Best thing since sliced bread.

I touch the gate valve and clean the strainer about once every 6 months. Dead silent. Restarts flawlessly after each power down.

Slipxslip bulkheads are where it's at. The threaded fittings do have a smaller ID compared to a slip fit, but that shouldn't matter a whole lot on this setup.

That's a verry nice tank. I am jealous

I recommend setting the tank up in the basement or garage and running numerous powerdowns and powerups, simulating blocked pipes, anything you can think of. I spent about a month on mine after work before I glued anything.

Take your time, get it perfect, then set it up where you want it