When did all leos become BD?

[fishguy306]

And to a lessor extent all motoros marble motoros?

I was big into rays about 10 years ago before college and living at home. I kept several different types ranging from regular motoros all the way to flower and tiger rays. Back then leopoldi rays were very popular, no surprise there. I then got out of the fish game for a while. I'm starting to get back into it now that I'm out of school with a real job and a home where I can have a big tank.

Something I've discovered is that leos are never just labeled as leos anymore. Every single one is BD. Back 10 years ago BD were the very highest end leos, tons of spotting, vibrant colors, all that jazz. Now even a ray with basic spotting is labeled as BD. It is the same with motoros. I see very few "regular" motoros anymore. Vast majority are labeled as marble, even those that don't have markings between their spots.

There is a good chance I missed something in my absence, I'm just curious what happened to cause the name changes. Is it a whole lot of wishful thinking? Or are leos just simply known as BD these days?

 

[UnstoppableJayD]

Greedy people and watered down quality

 

[natbling]

Yeah, it's unfortunate that people would sell their standard Leo as a BD to try and get more money for it. It's the same with someone trying to pull off a pure "BD", but you can tell that the ray is hybrid.

 

[davenmandy]

My personal impression:

BD = Leopoldi ray with certain traits. These traits are found in the wild most notably in Sao Felix I believe.

Traits (5):

3 rows of spotting including small perimeter spotting
Large circular spots as opposed to "coffee beans"
Good amount of Belly Spotting
Spotting on eyes and spiracle covers
Spotting on claspers for males

So now my question, knowing that F1 offspring are generally more beautiful than the parents. If you have a BD ray that mates with a "leo" that doesn't hit all of those characteristics, however the pups are born hitting all of those traits noted above and look exactly like a "BD" you would buy, would the pups be BD's?

I guess what I am asking is how much of this BD designation is due to genetics/lineage and how much is a quality brand, like running shoes vs Nike running shoes. I think people get really up in arms about this so I refer to my pups based on the parents, but when considering a "leo" and "bd" are the same ray, p13 leopoldi, is it wiser to use the designation of BD only when it hits those 5 traits above? Who get's to decide on the more subjective ones?

Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this, I have often had this debate, seems like there are a lot of people who are snobby and only want "pure" judging the parents without looking at the ray in front of them.

 

[fishguy306]

I guess I was always under the impression that BD were determined by looks rather than genetics like motoros and their marble counterparts. I could breed two marble together and get a plain pup, I may mention parents are marbles, but if the pup has no markings between it's spots I wouldn't call it a marble. I had thought leos and their BD variants were the same. A certain look that met all of the characteristics of a BD.

So D davenmandy , to use your example, a pup with a BD parent and regular leo parent that hits all the BD traits, I would call that a BD. A pup that does not but has two BD parents I would think is not one.

All this said, it is very, very possible I am wrong.

 

[digginrays]

back when mike (h20) began importing they had to meet certain criteria to be black diamonds.now that the waters are so muddy and alot are imbred with henlei to get the large spots I would agree with davenmandy with the 5 minimum criteria to be called a bd.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

I think to many sub categories. Should be just "Black Ray" and "Brown Ray" or its proper Taxonomy.

 

[davenmandy]

I don't mind the black Diamond being an indication of quality, absolutely by all means do I think we should continue to use it, and absolutely do I think that people should always ask to see how the parents look, I just think that a top of the line ray that hits all the traits of a bd that has one parent Leo but the pups look better than most "bd", people shouldn't snap when you don't say bdxleo. Bdxleo is acceptable in my eyes when there is one parent that is a bd but the pup doesn't hit all the traits of bd, that's when genetics could play a factor and I think it is acceptable to inform people that there is black diamond blood that may produce some stunning pups.

 

[rooto56]

I think people should just sell the rays for the way they look, and label them exactly what they are. If it looks great, sell it for higher, if it looks okay, sell for lower. Doesn't really matter whether it's parents were absolute high end stunners if the pup looks pretty average. Sell the pup based on its quality not it's lineage.

 

[UnstoppableJayD]

I guess I was always under the impression that BD were determined by looks rather than genetics like motoros and their marble counterparts. I could breed two marble together and get a plain pup, I may mention parents are marbles, but if the pup has no markings between it's spots I wouldn't call it a marble. I had thought leos and their BD variants were the same. A certain look that met all of the characteristics of a BD.

So D davenmandy , to use your example, a pup with a BD parent and regular leo parent that hits all the BD traits, I would call that a BD. A pup that does not but has two BD parents I would think is not one.

All this said, it is very, very possible I am wrong.

Marbels are totally different collected in different places and pup may not show marbling but will later- totally different story