When did all leos become BD?

[Lepisosteus]

My wolves are mutts???? That's funny, I bought them as undescribed, guess what they are? A wolf I was able to justify the cost of and am very happy I bought them. I bought them without a name and could care less what people want to call them, personally I call them cute lil puppy dogs but have not been successful in getting anyone to pet my cute lil puppy dogs..... YET.

Seems like hobbyists might be ahead of science when describing species.... Look at the Characins - a fine example - How many ATF species was there when you found MFK? Probably less then there is now, same with Dorado. But again all irrelevant in this discussion.

But this has nothing to do with Wolves......

Please show where I "contradicted" myself.......

BD "traits" were discussed years ago, I'm not here to argue with them, want to know what they are go look it up...... I personally think they're a joke - 3 rows, belly spotting, flag tail, blue eyes?

The rays in the pics look like Leos to me. That's what I'd call them, that's what I'd peddle them as. I could care less if BD was in the name cause I look at BDs just like Marbles..... I look at the fish and look right past the stupid name, cause that's all it is, a stupid name.

Guess it "bothers" some more then others, guess it depends on what you stand to gain or loose from it. I could care less cause I'm very proud of my black "MUTTS" but IF I was the owner of a "BD" I'd be a little bothered by people calling my rays mutts if they are true BDs, but then again IF I'm spending BD money I probably have proof it is truley BD OR I just really liked the ray and said screw what everyone else thinks - which is exactly what I think people SHOULD be doing -do what feels right, screw the politics.

If a BD is in the same species as a leo then the term mutt cannot be used as it references a hybrid species. You cant even prove a bd is a pure bd because a pure bd is still a leo. If you do a genetics test on a "pure bd" the results will put it as a leo ray so how can one call any ray a pure bd for that matter? By claiming its a pure bd refers to all lineages of that fish are pure bd which makes it impossible. So bd is a characteristic trait based on the appearance of the individual ray and not the lineage of that ray. If that was not the case then all leo and bd rays could be considered pure bd as they all descend from a common ancestor or all could be considered a leo. A bd ray is exactly what was said, a leo ray demonstrating the given traits

 

[Lepisosteus]

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Pup in the front of that pic is the pup on the glass. Black diamond or not at first glance?

As for these three rays the far left ray is a clear leo, the one in the front a bd and the one in the back right a nice quality leo. Just my 2 cents

 

[ShadowStryder]

BD are Line bred Leo's, that simple!!

I would agree with this statement to the most part in todays market, quality control over what goes in and what comes out.

But I will reiterate that one of the criteria from 7-8 years ago besides 3-4 rows, belly spotting, eye spotting, large/ eclipse spotting and of course bright white spots, was they were collected from one river out of Brazil, Soa Felix. But again not all these met all the criteria and were essentially labeled low grade, mid grade or high grade since they were collected from Soa Felix. Hell I remember some coming in with yellow spotting meeting all other so called criteria.
So if you are going to use all criterias you should know lineage from decendants of those that were imported/collected. And I would guess that less than 10% percent know this. I know mine's do you know yours. :-O When it comes down to it I have P12 and P13. Just my .02

But I do love when these threads pop up every year or two, have fun!

 

[DB junkie]

If a BD is in the same species as a leo then the term mutt cannot be used as it references a hybrid species. You cant even prove a bd is a pure bd because a pure bd is still a leo. If you do a genetics test on a "pure bd" the results will put it as a leo ray so how can one call any ray a pure bd for that matter? By claiming its a pure bd refers to all lineages of that fish are pure bd which makes it impossible. So bd is a characteristic trait based on the appearance of the individual ray and not the lineage of that ray. If that was not the case then all leo and bd rays could be considered pure bd as they all descend from a common ancestor or all could be considered a leo. A bd ray is exactly what was said, a leo ray demonstrating the given traits

Did I say BDxLeo was a Hybrid? If so I apologize..... To me BD x Leo = Leo. "BD" (Hen x Leo) x Leo = MUTT. Any Hen blood involved = Mutt.

 

[Lepisosteus]

Did I say BDxLeo was a Hybrid? If so I apologize..... To me BD x Leo = Leo. "BD" (Hen x Leo) x Leo = MUTT. Any Hen blood involved = Mutt.

Ill agree to that, any hen makes it a mutt

 

[Lepisosteus]

To me - IF it's black and white it's a mutt, it's your job as the breeder/seller to PROVE otherwise.

Strongly disagree with this here

 

[davenmandy]

 

[DB junkie]

I'm going to bow out of this one before it gets ugly. Degree of obsession with a hobby does not equal the amount of weight an opinion holds. The people's whose opinions count most don't bother with MFK. Because an importer who probably didn't even speak good English decided to call some rays Black Diamonds once upon a time (probably to sell them for more) does not equivocate what the term means now. You can go "look up" where you contradicted yourself in that particular post, but as parting words, not sure how you can be adamant about people needing to be incredibly accurate about, apparently parental lineage because you STILL wont clarify, and at the same time tell us it doesn't matter, look at the fish and decide if you like it. To each their own though, live and let live.

Good luck, I'm happy with whatever my black rays are, which is black rays with white spots. Unless someone is trying to sell knock off Gucci purses this whole discussion is irrelevant, yet seems to be quite important to a lot doesn't it?

Before it gets "ugly"? It's just a discusion.... Or maybe you're like me and get a little short when people put their own labels on your rays without knowing squat about them.... Kinda like my "Castexi" that come from the Sao Felix for yellow rays, yet are just "Castexi" that get big and ugly..... lol. I never meant to imply that your rays are/aren't BDs, also don't know what breeds there, I'm simply a little "bothered" by the constant miss use /interpretation of "BD" and all the "BD" Mutts. Just seems everything is BD anymore.

Most people selling pups have no problem sharing the lineage.... Why not? Shouldn't we be proud of the genes they have? I just think it's suspicious when people won't share.... Didn't think it would be asking too much as I'm very quick to share pics of the family of rays mine are coming from. That's why I said it should be job of the breeder to prove/share what the ray is. I'm all about getting rays from hobbyists and most hobbyists care enough to keep track, as opposed to a pond full of rays could be this or that imports.

 

[DB junkie]

The Hen also helps in stablizing a more round uniform spot, from my understanding.
You still have Jack Al? He is a perfect example.....Anyone would call him pure BD.

Yup! I sure liked him a lot more then the pure BD I had here that I didn't believe was a BD but was reassured by the breeder it was - sold him and put it towards Jack.

My new lady is supposedly BD, I call her a mutt, cause that's what she'll be making..... lol. And hopefully they will be just like their daddy and look every bit BD......

 

[ShadowStryder]

Yup! I sure liked him a lot more then the pure BD I had here that I didn't believe was a BD but was reassured by the breeder it was - sold him and put it towards Jack.

My new lady is supposedly BD, I call her a mutt, cause that's what she'll be making..... lol. And hopefully they will be just like their daddy and look every bit BD......

Yeah I went back to your youtube channel to check him out. Anyone would look at him not knowing his lineage and say BD.

Hopefully when mine breeds with these two super nice female Hens I can get some Jacks. And I think they will considering the size, color and # of spots. Then blow them out at discount prices so I can share my MUTTS!