Mixing parents and siblings together for breeding

[T1KARMANN]

Inter breeding is very common in rays

A lot of people buy a male and female from the same breeder normally from the same parents

So all the bd breeders only saying they will only sell pairs isn't a good thing
I understand that if they don't sell pairs they are stuck with loads of males but surely this is encouraging inbreeding

Do we actually know if we are inbreeding and are breeders just telling us what we want to hear that the pups come from different parents

The fact is if you buy pups from the same breeder you have a chance of inter breeding

That being said I would breed brother to sister then make sure I mix up the next breeding

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[scott s]

My take on the whole inbred vs line bred is:

Line breeding for a certain pattern can be accomplished by taking the desired pattern from 2 or more unrelated pairs and breeding them to achieve pups that have the desired pattern.
That being said, it would take a breeding colony and a lot of time/money/space/documentation to do it this way. If you look at many of the breeding pond videos from overseas, it is obvious pups with the best patterns are grown out a bit and thrown back into the mix.

Would be very interesting to see how many of the "high end" rays are the result of inbreeding.

With the limited number of "pure blood" rays being bred, inbreeding...to an extent is bound to happen unless wild rays are brought in for breeding projects. That's where it goes from "hobby" to "business" and prices go up.

 

[spotfin]

I would find it interesting to know how much "inbreeding" takes place in the wild. Freshwater stingrays don't stike me as being very migratory; there body shape alone isn't designed for long migrations. This makes me think that the odds of related stingrays mating in the wild is greater than we think.

 

[Mr. Allgood]

Simply look at flowerhorns. Some of the best looking, most expensive fh come from repeated line breeding but they tend to have many health issues. Like previously stated, line breeding for traits is common but when overdone it presents health issues. I'm not sure about this but I have heard that breeding cousins strengthens their shared genes without causing the health issues associated line breeding

 

[T1KARMANN]

Simply look at flowerhorns. Some of the best looking, most expensive fh come from repeated line breeding but they tend to have many health issues. Like previously stated, line breeding for traits is common but when overdone it presents health issues. I'm not sure about this but I have heard that breeding cousins strengthens their shared genes without causing the health issues associated line breeding

Don't think you Can bring flowerhorn Lou Han into it they are a man made messed up fish who don't know what they are


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[jim barry]

Very intersting debate guys. I just always assumed it was a no no thing to do and i will keep with that thought. Not something i am going to do.
Cheers all.

 

[Just Toby]

I would find it interesting to know how much "inbreeding" takes place in the wild. Freshwater stingrays don't stike me as being very migratory; there body shape alone isn't designed for long migrations. This makes me think that the odds of related stingrays mating in the wild is greater than we think.

Whilst I don't think it "seems" right to breed brother to sister etc I think it may be somewhat based on human morals and experience. I have to agree with the above that I doubt rays travel that far and males go mad for female pheromones so are likely to be very attracted to local females...related or not. Maybe this is why they are more like orgies in the wild to try and spread the genes?

 

[bonesb66]

Inter breeding is very common in rays

A lot of people buy a male and female from the same breeder normally from the same parents

So all the bd breeders only saying they will only sell pairs isn't a good thing
I understand that if they don't sell pairs they are stuck with loads of males but surely this is encouraging inbreeding

Do we actually know if we are inbreeding and are breeders just telling us what we want to hear that the pups come from different parents

The fact is if you buy pups from the same breeder you have a chance of inter breeding

That being said I would breed brother to sister then make sure I mix up the next breeding

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This comment hit the nail on the head for me!

I have absolutely been lost as to why rays are sold in pairs, i was only talking about this to a friend the other day, i agree that it is difficult when you are left with males and you have to use the females to sell the males but i feel that typically if you're forcing the sale of the male it's not very good, if a buyer has their own collection they probably already have a male, by forcing a new male into their system when they only needed to grow their female count isn't doing much for the male.

I think the best policy is to just accept that males are worth less and should be sold for less, i find it totally justifyable for the price of female rays to go up and the price of male rays to go down and then just rely on luck of the draw as a pose to selling in pairs.

I also agree with Toby's point - this is based on Human morals, i have absolutely no idea whether breeding within 1 generation would be harmful or only if done repeatidly.

Better safe than sorry though.

 

[Raymann88]

Interesting thread. I know sometimes line breeding and limited inbreeding is done to bring out a certain trait in fish. After a generation or two a fish with a recessive gene for that trait is introduced to add genetic variety without taking away from the desired trait. Discus, angelfish and koi are good examples. How many orange angelfish and discus are swimming in the amazon river systems?
Other interesting thing is the whole F generation thing. People will pay more for an F2 or F3 fish than a captive bred one because it's gene pool is closer to the wild. Most times isn't an F2 or F3 an inbred fish?? Wild pair breeds, produces pups (F1). Those pups breed to each other (F2) those sibling breed (F3). If its such a bad thing, why are people paying more for it???


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[T1KARMANN]

So

This could be why captive bred rays are better than wild caught because chances are the hobbyist breeder purchased a brother and sister and bred them




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