Unpopular opinion- NLS not impressed...

[ryansmith83]

For me it wasn't about how my fish reacted to NLS, but about how their growth and spawning were affected.

I read all the glowing reviews about NLS here for years, and all the heated debates, so I finally ditched my "bad" foods and switched exclusively to NLS for a year. NLS Thera A, NLS Grow micropellets for my tiny growout cichlids, etc.

Suddenly it felt like every new batch of juvenile cichlids I bought or tried to raise were runting out on me. Fish didn't seem interested in spawning. I thought I was having another local water issue, which I've had before. I started filtering all my water again through a three stage filter. Fish weren't growing. They showed little interest in spawning. When I did get a spawn, I'd raise fry up to 3/4" or so on brine shrimp, then switch them to NLS Grow and suddenly the growth would slow down. My Heros juvies were runting out around 3" or so. It was maddening. I nearly gave up and shut down the fish room.

It never occurred to me that it would be food-related. The fish were eating, though not voraciously. (The exception here were two wild groups of Geophagus sveni, which never seemed to eat the NLS regardless of how small and manageable the pellet size was. They'd take in a mouthful with sand, then chew and chew and chew and spit them all out again. I watched two very expensive groups of sveni waste away. I treated them for intestinal flagellates and worms, thinking again that it had to be something illness-related because it didn't occur to me they'd just outright refuse a good food like NLS.)

Finally, about a year ago, I bought some new cichlid juvies and decided I was going to try a different food for them on a whim. I ordered some micropellet food from Angels Plus, and also some various types of flakes. And I started seeing results. The fry were growing. They doubled size in a month. Then I got on Amazon and went wild, ordering all kinds of stuff -- Ocean Nutrition, Bug Bites, Xtreme, some spirulina pellets, etc. I mixed them all in a huge canister. Now I feed all my tanks from this blend of foods. Fish are spawning, fish are growing, things look good.

I don't know what went wrong with the NLS. Maybe I received an old batch. Maybe it's all coincidental. Whatever the case, I've given up on feeding one "good" food exclusively and gone with a mix of various dried foods, in addition to occasional treats like red wigglers, mealworms, frozen mysis from PE, freeze-dried blackworms, fresh Romaine and zucchini for the omnivores, etc. I feel the variety covers all the cichlids I keep, allowing them to eat what they want and skip what they don't.

 

[tlindsey]

I personally Have a few brands of foods not just one. I also think the fish benefit from ingredients from each brand furthermore the fish don't get disinterested of eating the same food.

 

[Galactik]

Just to clarify about the PE Pellets. I see it's like $20-24 in a quick Google shopping search for 8oz which I think I'm not willing to pay now. I got on sale for $12 when it was on clearance at liveaquaria two Decembers ago. (It looks like.they carry it again. Just under $24) My situation is different as my fish are eating the NLS so that's more cost effective for me.

I kept the PE pellets in freezer which is why I'm still finishing it. If cost doesn't matter, I'm sure your loaches will love it like mine do. Also in that Google search I see they sell in 5lb buckets from other suppliers.

I had the saltwater version but I believe the ingredients.are.exactly the same. I got the list below form the LA listing. I don't like the whey buts it's far down there. In NLS's defense, I do think the ingredients of whole Antarctic krill and giant squid might be better than Mysis and Deboned white fish meal, but I don't think the ingredients below are that bad. (From my limited knowledge from reading all the fish food threads here.) There are definitely worse out there.

Piscine Energetics PE Pellets Freshwater Fish Food - 3mm | Aquarium Supplies at LiveAquaria

Ingredients:
Mysis diluviana, Deboned White Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Antarctic Krill Meal, Brewer’s Dried Yeast, Whey, Sodium Alginate, Molasses, Fish Oil, Astaxanthin, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, l-Ascorbic acid 2-monophosphate (Vitamin C), Calcium Chloride, HexMetPhos, Vitamins (Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, Vitamin B12, Riboflavin, p-Panthothenic Acid, Niacin, Choline, Thiamine, Pyridoxine, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, BHT, Inositol), Minerals (Manganese, Zinc, Iron, Copper, Cobalt, Iodine, Selenium)



�

Crude Protein	42.0% min​
Crude Fat	8.0% min​
Crude Fiber	2.0% max​
Ash	6.0% max​
Moisture	10.0% max​
Phosphorous	0.75% Max​
Omega-3	2.0% Min​
Omega-6	1.0% Min​
Vitamin A	50,000 IU/kg​
Vitamin D	2,000 IU/kg​
Vitamin E	200 IU/kg​

[TD]Guaranteed Analysis[/TD]
[TD][/TD]​

On a side note. Does storing the dry food in the freezer make a big difference in keeping it fresh?

I always put half in a ziplock back so I'm not opening the whole thing all the time but never thought of using the freezer.

 

[AaronKWolfe]

I don't care about the brand, just the ingredients. New life spectrum has had some pretty good ingredients in their food, as has Northfin and Cobalt, but I will try any food, as long as it has good, high quality ingredients. Or you could just use live/frozen food which is about as pure as you can get......

 

[RD.]

One thing that I have learned over many years of keeping a vast amount of different fish species, it doesn't matter how nutritious a food is, if your fish won't readily consume it.

 

[Ruturaj]

Will totally disagree with you on this point. It is not the same thing, you did not address other elements in different protein sources and my concerns about mass farming. It loses alot of things in the process.

Even food fish farmers themselves WILL not eat their own fish they raised on the same feed. Wild caught salmon tastes different than farmed salmon and even have different coloring to their flesh.

We can go in a different perspective here besides fish:

Look at HONEY. Honeybees collecting pollen from different sources

Does it still have the same result? Its still honey yet not the same! People with allergies who uses this as medicine will know that answer. Its not the same thing whatsoever.

Same thing applies to the food sources and it also involves more than just amino acid. Farmed fish eating their own fish meal crap produces crappy fish product itself.


Mass produced proteins even fruits/vegs LOSES alot of flavor. Because they are fed/fertilized the same crap over and over. Yet you want to tell me this hogwash is the same thing? Yuck! Try a farm mass produced strawberry vs real strawberry grown in someones backyard using same variety?

I can tell tell the difference between mass farm produced chicken vs homeraised chicken in the meat itself and how its cooked as well under the same condition. Even can tell the difference between one brand of chicken to the next by its flavor id you presented and cooked it the same way and gave me two pieces i can tell you its from two different farms. There is way more to just "amino acids" hence me wanting to expand the options.

Even cheese are not the same either. Look at Parmesan cheese. It ONLY can be produced from cows feeding off a region in Italy. Thats it. Many attempts have been made to replicate that has failed in other areas. Look it up if you dont believe me.

I do believe the bugs and the worms hold the key they go out in the world and bring back that missing element in the food chain here for my fish. I just cant accept "mass produced feed" and no im not humanizing it when the result is very clear on a farmed fish being fed the same crap over and over vs a wild caught fish feeding off different variety what the wild has to offer.

You are mixing multiple very different things here. NLS is not mass farming food or even close to it, the ingredients are natural and are of high quality.

 

[RD.]

I do believe the bugs and the worms hold the key they go out in the world and bring back that missing element in the food chain here for my fish.

ALL of the "bug" foods currently on the market, are derived from farmed bugs, not even insects, but actually the larvae of those insects, then processed into a meal form. What is natural about that, vs harvesting fish, krill, squid, etc from the ocean and making a meal product? Ditto to worms, their nutritional value is based on the consumption of their natural surroundings, so the worms going into processed foods, are no more natural than the bug larvae that are farmed. In fact, I would argue that those foods are far less natural, as unlike the fish, krill, squid, etc, the bugs are gorwn in a controlled environment, and fed a controlled diet.

Trust me, I understand that fish can be selective due to smell/taste, and even sight, and I was recently taught a lesson in that regards by an adult male Amphilophus that I have been feeding for going on 8 yrs, so it pains myself as much as others when a fish (for whatever reason) decides to ignore a certain brand or formula, but it happens. I get that. And in this case it wasn't NLS. lol Long story short, at one time I believed that fish could be pushed in any direction that I wanted, and I have come to realize that sometimes that is much easier said, than done. And I completely understand why some folks switch brands.


But what's natural for a fish, ain't getting fed by someone standing over a glass box. Nothing natural about it.
Even those who choose to feed fresh/frozen/insects, etc - without proper supplementation those diets will also be lacking in nutrients that would otherwise be consumed in the wild.



ryansmith83 Your experience sounds like a one off situation? I have bred a lot of fish over the years on NLS, and know hundreds of other breeders that have done the same, never any growth or health issues. Not sure what happened there, very strange, but I suspect something was off with that batch of food. That is the only reasonable explanation. Glad that you got it straightened out.

 

[DrownedFishonFire]

True RD. Its still a different protien source for me at the end of the day though a trickle factor for me for all micro and macros and all microbes that makes it into the food.

I do not have the luxury to collect different bugs / worms and make my own food and i am in the suburbs near Chicago and there are too many pesticides being used, bug spray control for mosquitoes, i cant even trust the worms in the ground.

However I am STILL going to use NLS as one of the staple brands in my fish room. It does not foul the water if it sits a bit before the plecos eventually venture out of their hiding spots. Its one of the foods I am very comfortable with my clown loaches and different plecos to feed on. Im going to a fish swap meet tomorrow and go slowly over the vendors food offerings and weigh in my options what can work better for my clouded archerfish. At the end of the day if the fish wont eat, i got to do something about it.

Cheers

 

[Backfromthedead]

Ive had good results with my fish who willingly take nls. That being said, a lot of my fish wont eat it. Ive yet to fi d that perfect pellet that every fish seems to like, so therefore im constantly throwing different things at my fish to see what sticks. Hell, if anything, they definitely at least have a "varied" diet.

 

[RD.]

Soybean is a different protein source, but that doesn't equate to it being better than what most finfish would consume in their natural habitat. Ditto to soybean oil. Does black soldier fly larvae have something that my fish are missing? I doubt it. And this is coming from someone who suggested to the owner of New Life a few yrs ago that he may want to consider a BSF larvae formula in the future. I believe this was after the EU approved this raw ingredient in fish feed. Stay tuned ….

And while on that subject, the following from a recent paper published in 2019.

A six-months study on Black Soldier Fly (Hermetia illucens) based diets in zebrafish - Scientific Reports

Intensive fish farming relies on the use of feeds based on fish meal and oil as optimal ingredients; however, further development of the aquaculture sector needs new, nutritious and sustainable ingredients. According to the concept of circular economy, insects represent good candidates as...

www.nature.com

"The inclusion of BSF meal in aquafeed has been extensively investigated in the last years but results are still controversial. In addition, all the studies so far performed are focused on a short period of fish life cycle (larval stage, juvenile stage or growth-out stage. To the best of our knowledge, no study about the effects of insect-based diets during the whole life cycle of fish is presently available. One of the possible reasons of this lack of information is mainly related to the fact that most aquaculture species have long life cycles, making these feeding trials expensive and laborious.

As reported in previous studies, insect meal could reduce fish growth and welfare especially over longer periods of time and when high percentages of inclusion (more than 25–30%) are used. At this regard, the present six months experiment evidenced that, even if the tested diets were isoenergetics, fish growth was negatively affected by the increasing percentage of BSF meal in the diets."

Sometimes what looks great on paper, doesn't have the same net results in real world application.




For myself a commercial food has to check off a number of boxes, starting with quality ingredients, as in no soybean meal, no corn, little terrestrial plant matter overall, and no terrestrial based oil, at all. Zero. The more seafood based ingredients, the better. I also want to see some plant matter of aquatic origin. Once I cover the basics, I trial the food hands on, something that I have done with a LOT of commercial foods over the years, so many that I have lost count of brands & formulas. So the food goes from my sniff test, to the fishes sniff test, with most food trial lasting several months, or longer, unless there is something obvious from the get go - such as excessive cloudy water, etc.

The end result over the years is not all brands, or formulas, will elicit the same feed response. Some fish have chosen floating over sinking, some prefer flakes over pellets, some larger pellets over smaller, some smaller over larger, some red over green (exact same formula), some have such fine senses that for whatever reason they have refused to eat a newer version of the exact same formula/brand. I can go back & forth between old bag, and new, and 100% rejection on the new, and 100% consumption of the old - yet according to the manufacturers label nothing has changed. Interesting, but I am guessing that the fish is tasting (or not) something that the manufacturer is not coming clean on - such as a change up in raw ingredient (by dry weight) listing. The food is only rejected once in the mouth (for the count of 1-2 seconds) before being spat out. Hmmmmm.

And some fish have simply turned their noses up, unless offered no other food whatsoever.
I have yet to see a freshwater fish starve itself to death, when food is offered. IME, most hobbyists won't hold out long enough and force a fish to completely convert. I'm not suggesting that one should have to choose that route either, I'm simply presenting the facts.

Imagine how commercial fish farm operations would operate if they had to feed several different foods to their ponds, in order to offer a complete (and varied) diet, one that ALL of the fish would readily consume. They would laugh at anyone suggesting such a thing. It just doesn't work that way. Those gents are in it to make money, so they feed to succeed, and they go from starter growth formulas, to adult/maintenance formulas. Not 3-8 different "varieties" of food. Catfish, Tilapia, Trout, Salmon, Sturgeon, all feed commercial pellets, and they don't feed several different brands & formulas. Ditto to all of the various cichlid farmers in South Florida.

In Africa a friend of mine worked for the late Stuart Grant on Lake Malawi, and one of his duties was feeding all of their wild caught fish. They fed a generic flake food, and while some held out longer than others, eventually all of the fish converted, before being bagged and shipped to all points on the globe. Other collectors in various parts of the world have expressed the same to me. Again, they all feed to succeed, not to suffer heavy losses and lose $$$$.

While I understand how frustrating it can be when dealing with all of the various personalities & quirks that some fish have, I don't think that it's fair to blame a company if/when for whatever reason your fish refuse to eat their brand, or formula. To me that makes about as much logic as blaming the fish. Some things work, some don't. My suggestion is to keep going until you find a mix that works for you, and your fish.

Good luck.