Has anyone ever seen secondary infections in HITH lesions?

[Osprey101]

Have you tested your water?

Yes

If yes, what is your ammonia?

0

If yes, what is your nitrite?

0

If yes, what is your nitrate?

10

If I did not test my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

Yes

What percentage of water do you change?

21-30%

How frequently do you change your water?

Every week

If I do not change my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

The stickied threads didn't seem like a good place to ask this since I'm asking for observations and insights from anyone who wishes to chime in. I'm working on a hypothesis and I'd be interested in what others have seen.

It occurred to me today that I have yet to see anyone who has reported hole-in-the-head (HITH) lesions getting infected with secondary infections, like saprolegnia fungus or columnaris, like any of the "typical" injuries that sustain subsequent infection in fish. (I suspect there's no saprolegnia because it's primarily a decomposer, starting on dead tissue, and whatever causes HITH, it seems to excavate into live tissue without leaving behind substantial wound necrosis, but that wouldn't include columnaris.)

So, in short- has anyone whose fish sustained HITH ever seen the lesions subsequently get visibly infected? Ignore for the moment infection by any putative causative organisms like hexamita.

 

[kno4te]

May not see it cause it’s within the holes. But if swab cultures and scrapes of the area are taken it can show bacteria. Basically just cause we don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s there. But can’t assume vice versa.

 

[Osprey101]

May not see it cause it’s within the holes. But if swab cultures and scrapes of the area are taken it can show bacteria. Basically just cause we don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s there. But can’t assume vice versa.

I agree; I have ~20 years of micro experience, I understand the eyeball test (EBT) doesn't do much good.

But personally I find it a bit curious that cichlids and some other fish can sustain such grave erosions, yet obvious signs of secondary infections seem absent. I'm curious as to whether anyone has witnessed this.

In other, somewhat related matters, I have a recent histopathology image from a fish pathologist who necropsied one of his own HITH fish, with absolutely no signs of hexamita or other diplomonads in the wound.

 

[RD.]

Have you seen these vids?

In other, somewhat related matters, I have a recent histopathology image from a fish pathologist who necropsied one of his own HITH fish, with absolutely no signs of hexamita or other diplomonads in the wound.

Which supports the fact that HITH is a symptom, not a disease. While I am sure that you understand that, many folks seemingly do not. Ultimately HITH can be the result of any number of clinical conditions, or disease.

 

[kno4te]

Have you seen these vids?

Which supports the fact that HITH is a symptom, not a disease. While I am sure that you understand that, many folks seemingly do not. Ultimately HITH can be the result of any number of clinical conditions, or disease.

Read my mind RD. Was gonna post this.

 

[dogofwar]

I've had Satanoperca daemon get "HITH" where fungas fills the pits. It's nasty. I've manually removed the fungus and sometimes it comes back.

As an aside, the HITH occurred after years of thriving in a tank with immaculate (but relatively hard) water. I won't keep these fish anymore - at least until I have a way of sourcing rain water.

 

[Osprey101]

Have you seen these vids?

Which supports the fact that HITH is a symptom, not a disease. While I am sure that you understand that, many folks seemingly do not. Ultimately HITH can be the result of any number of clinical conditions, or disease.

I have seen those videos! It would seem those poor souls had many things to worry about, confounding their issues. A pertinent example nonetheless.

And I agree- definitely a syndrome. I'm still feeling out my impressions on magnesium as it seems to relate to some fishes- specifically, the waters in which we keep fish may have a wonky calcium:magnesium ratio. Both are divalent cations, and play similar biological roles- and the ratios at which we keep fish in the United States and Europe may not jibe with those in the wild of Africa and South America. Compounding this may be that reverse osmosis may amplify this, either by making the ratio worse, or by putting one or the other (calcium or magnesium) at an extreme- calcium too high, or perhaps magnesium too low.

And while proper analyses are affordable ($21 for Ca and Mg levels, locally), one figure out of context is useless; what is "normal"? There are good data from the waters occupied by oscars in the wild, and I have been using those for context. But there are further confounders... It does explain how I cleared up HITH in one fish with nothing more than added magnesium sulfate, perhaps.

There's another factor I've been working with and I don't want to jinx it, the experiment has only been running three weeks and I have more tests to do.

 

[RD.]

Potential mineral imbalances and redox imbalance has been discussed here in the past, I recall neutrino mentioning this in this past discussion.
Whats the big deal about soft water cichlids in hard water. Rant | MonsterFishKeepers.com

That's one of the points Strohmeyer makes. Obviously, the inverse can also be true.

As you say, there are multiple possible stressors. However, the presence of stressors can be distinguished from a stress response. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about pathogens, I think we're just focused on different factors-- I'm looking at other contributing factors-- and potentially why I've never had but one mild case of HITH in several decades of fishkeeping. I've certainly had individually stressed fish on occasion. I've had my share of aggression issues, and while I prefer to stock lightly to moderately now, I certainly have some crowded tanks in my history. I've had a few chemistry issues over the years, whether due to my own mistakes or issues with water from the tap, but just one mild case of HITH ever. I'm not saying that proves anything, but there must be reasons for it.

I can write in some depth about single photon interference, the conundrum of why gravity is weaker than the other fundamental forces, or some of the problems with string theory (here's a "simple" one: string theory is background dependent, but spacetime is dynamic, not static, so string theories require a universe we don't live in to work, a string theory that describes reality would have to be background independent), yet, as many times as I've read about the subject, I don't understand redox well enough to actually explain it I'm just not very bright in that area. What I do understand, dimly as it might be, is it involves mineral and chemical balance , that in an aquarium it represents a potential to balance electron exchange in water chemistry and bio chemistry, and that it affects fish immune response and healing response. I assume this is why improving mineral balance in his tank healed HITH pit erosion after nothing else worked in the case I mentioned above. I'm not arguing the role of pathogens, just looking at other factors, whether in HITH or disease resistance in general.

Redox regulation of the immune response

But again, this simply demonstrates that HITH can be the result of any number of clinical conditions, or disease. A mineral imbalance may only be one manner in which this symptom can be bought on. Not sure if you caught the thread linked to above in the past, you may find it an interesting read.

 

[RD.]

I am assuming that you have also read the following article by Carl Strohmeyer.

Aquarium Redox Balance | Fish Health | Potential & Reduction | rH (americanaquariumproducts.com)

This portion is what I would base my success with over the years. " As often good aquatic husbandry is a major factor in a healthy Redox Potential (balance). "

Low stocking, high 02 levels, never overfeeding, regular large water changes, and regular cleaning of my filters. I have also been blessed with mineral rich water for most of my years of fishkeeping, but there are ways to cheaply resolve that if minerals are not naturally present.