Official Off Topic Discussion Thread #1

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Of course the majority of attacks are attributed to Pitbulls; that's because they have not been trained by their Pit-human owners, so that the aggressive-to-other-dog tendencies (which were indeed absolutely engineered into the breed when it was created) have spilled over into all-around aggression without control. At risk of sounding judgemental...too late, I know...these idiots have bought the meanest dogs they could find, and often encouraged this meanness. If Pitbulls and Rotties and Dobes vanished tomorrow, these same morons would find new breeds and would pervert them the same way. Some other breed would be the number one dangerous breed on the planet, but I doubt the overall number of dog attacks would vary much at all. We'd be hearing about German Shepherds and St. Bernards and Huskies and others causing problems...because the people who create problem dogs would be focused on those instead of Pits.

A number of years ago I was going home and had with me in the car a lovely little Miniature Pinscher that I inherited from my father when he passed. I received a call from a birding friend informing me of a species that I dearly wanted to see, which he was at that moment observing at a nearby well-known natural site . Probably should have known better, but I detoured to the place, and the dog and I went for the short walk up the trail towards the location he described. Halfway there, a "lady" came up the path from the opposite direction, walking her two dogs...a Shepherd and a Lab. When they spotted 10-pound Kayla they bounded towards us in what I considered a very aggressive manner, and I quickly hoisted her to my chest and protected her with my arms. Both large dogs were circling around me and jumping up for the tempting morsel they perceived her to be; I was knocking first one and then the other down with my knees, dancing around frantically trying to protect the increasingly panicky Kayla. I shouted at the owner several times to call them off, to which she responded that they were only playing. Eventually, I hoisted Kayla up by her harness with one hand over my head and flicked open the large knife that I typically carry when "off-pavement". I heatedly told her that I was definitely not "just playing" and asked her which dog she preferred to lose first. She immediately ran up and got both dogs under control, beating a hasty retreat.

When I got back to the car, I quickly called the police and then waited for them to appear; I wanted to be the first to report the incident in case she decided to make difficulties. Fortunately, there were several other people who had witnessed the event and corroborated my story, and the police were satisfied.

If that ignorant...lady...could have had a couple Pits, I'm sure she would have, but the breed-specific ban was in effect and they were forbidden. So instead, she had a Shepherd and a Lab, and had managed to screw them up so thoroughly that they behaved just like the worst examples of Pits that we always hear about. Actually, not quite, they didn't attack me, but I was terrified throughout the whole thing. Just recounting it here has my blood pressure rising.

So, IMHO, it's not Pitbulls that are the problem directly. It's whatever dogs fall into the hands of idiots, and currently Pits are the dog of choice among the single-digit-IQ crowd. That could change, and I believe I was witnessing and experiencing the results of the ban, i.e. newly-created problem dogs of breeds that have up till now been relatively free from the attentions of people like that.
 
The comment about no dogs (aside from Pits) killing other dogs brings something else to mind as well. Back in Ontario, we had a neighbour who owned a Doberman, and who qualified as one of the idiots to whom I alluded earlier. His dog roamed freely around the local homes on numerous occasions; most of the properties in the area were 100+ acres in size, and I had the misfortune of living adjacent to this moron. His dog took after him in terms of personality, and numerous complaints and conversations with me and other neighbours had little effect on either of them.

That miserable creature (I mean the dog in this case) confronted my wife one time on my property and was behaving in a very threatening manner. My own two dogs...friendly, docile, gentle...quickly sent him packing, leaving behind a lot of blood and a fair length of intestine. We found him dead near the property line. After a long protracted period of...discussion...the owner reimbursed me for the vet bill that Lotus, my big dog, required to close a cut on one ear. Sheba, ever the smarter one, was unscathed.

So, they definitely had what it took; the capability for violence was part of their make-up, but training had let them keep it under control...until it was needed.
 
Another horrifying tale for sure. This excerpt from it rings very true with me:

"A behavioural consultant who helps people understand their dogs says the breed of a dog is irrelevant, the dog's behaviour comes down to the signals they receive from their owners."

Just like computers; garbage in, garbage out. Obvious! :)
 
Warning: This story is intense and involves deadly violence against an aggressive dog.

I had a family member who was attacked on a rural worksite by two pit bulls. The pitbulls went after a smaller dog first, then when the owner intervened they turned on the humans within range.

My family member is 6’2 and was probably 205 lbs at the time. He was also with another man when they were attacked - the other man was probably 5’9-5’10 and 165 or 170.

The two men ended up having to fight for their lives against the two dogs. My family member first tried to choke one of the dogs, but said he realized it wasn’t doing anything. Meanwhile, the other dog was ripping apart the second man’s arm. Both men armed themselves with bricks from the work site to fight back. After striking one of the dogs several times with a brick, finally its skull gave way. The dogs’ owner, a small woman, was able to distract the second dog enough at this time so that it called off the attack.

My family member said that he couldn’t believe how the dog was still attacking while being struck with the brick. He said that he was hitting it as hard as he could, and in the moment it seemed as though it was having no effect at all. It just felt like a ball of muscle.

My family member was alright, as he was wearing heavy duty work clothes. He had some puncture wounds and bruising. The other man was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and was much more badly injured and hospitalized.

If two grown men, one of whom was a very fit and muscular man in his late 20s, had such a hard time defending themselves against those two dogs I can only imagine what would have happened if it were anybody else. A child, a woman, an older person very likely would have been killed.
 
jjohnwm said:
Another horrifying tale for sure. This excerpt from it rings very true with me:

"A behavioural consultant who helps people understand their dogs says the breed of a dog is irrelevant, the dog's behaviour comes down to the signals they receive from their owners."

Just like computers; garbage in, garbage out. Obvious! :)
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Hello; Believe this if you wish. I do not. The so called bad owners may not train the dogs to heel or stop and be called off, but I als do not know of many training the dog to be aggressive myself. As with the neighborhood dog I described earlier they got a pup and simply let it be itself. The dog could not be called back by either owner. Point being the dog was allowed to be itself.
Dogs have a mind of their own and are not simply an extension of the owner's personality. But i get why some do not want to acknowledge that dogs can and do act independently. Gives some cover against breed bans and other enforcements.

I wound up with a Siberian Husky many decades ago. I worked a lot with the dog. Even so I would have never left him alone with a small child. Huskies are on the list of risky dogs. My first wife's brother bought the pup but could not keep it, so it came to live with us. She left me and the dog behind.
 
jjohnwm said:
A behavioural consultant who helps people understand their dogs says the breed of a dog is irrelevant, the dog's behaviour comes down to the signals they receive from their owners."
Click to expand...

Anyone who seriously believes that, has not spent enough time with some of these breeds. While all dogs are indeed just dogs, not all dog breeds have the potential to unleash the level of violence that the dogs described by Caperguy99 Caperguy99 did.
While a mental midget owning these breeds is indeed a recipe for disaster , the reality is that there are very few dog owners that have the skill set involved to control many of these breeds. And while not every dog in every litter is going to necessarily become a ticking time bomb, the potential will always be there, and culling that behavioural defect in a puppy that fetches thousands of $$$$$ ain’t going to happen. The ticking time bombs, which for a dog person aren’t that difficult to spot at an early age, are getting sold en masse, to folks who either are seeking exactly that, or a family with small children that have no idea that they might as well left their kids to play with a loaded gun.
 
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A perfect example of how the genetic hard wiring of a breed, can only be controlled so much. I thought of this vid today because the owner was attempting to warn potential buyers of what they would be getting into. This breed gives 100% 24/7 which is why the military and police forces of the world use them today probably more than any other breed. Perfect if they are trained by an expert, a disaster for the average person.


And while that breed is known to be highly trainable, by an expert, sans that type of handler it becomes a behavioural issue nightmare, that doesn’t have a stop button.


Just my personal opinion, but I would rather the govt intervene and stop the morons of the world, than have all these dogs suffer the fate of their irresponsible owners. You want the coolest dog on the block, no problem, pay the fee and sign the dotted liability line.
 
RD. said:
While all dogs are indeed just dogs, not all dog breeds have the potential to unleash the level of violence that the dogs described by Caperguy99 Caperguy99 did.
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I agree that this factor plays a huge role in this problem. One of the big issues is the incredible physical development of a mature specimen of one of these breeds; the jaw muscles on the head are like a steel-belted radial tire, and during a biting attack they would be flexed to the maximum extent. Hitting that head with a brick would indeed not do much or anything to shut down an attack, and the dog simply won't stop unless the damage inflicted is completely debilitating. It's futile to expect and hope for a yelp and a retreat, the dog must be severely injured to make it stop.

RD. said:
While a mental midget owning these breeds is indeed a recipe for disaster , the reality is that there are very few dog owners that have the skill set involved to control many of these breeds. And while not every dog in every litter is going to necessarily become a ticking time bomb, the potential will always be there, and culling that behavioural defect in a puppy that fetches thousands of $$$$$ ain’t going to happen. The ticking time bombs, which for a dog person aren’t that difficult to spot at an early age, are getting sold en masse, to folks who either are seeking exactly that, or a family with small children that have no idea that they might as well left their kids to play with a loaded gun.
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Again, I completely agree. This part of the issue can be laid at the feet of the "breeders" who select strictly for the look; I use quotation marks to indicate someone who is no more responsible than the aquarist who randomly crosses cichlids in his basement to get something cool. A responsible dog breeder will be cognizant of all aspects of the dog's genetic make-up, including aggression and sociability, as well as health issues, etc. and of course those dogs command a high premium. But the backyard "breeders" who throw together two random dogs which just look big and cool don't understand that and don't give a crap; they just see $$$. And the people who buy don't understand how important all those issues are when choosing a purebred dog; they just see parents and pups that have that magical look at a relatively bargain price.

RD. said:
A perfect example of how the genetic hard wiring of a breed, can only be controlled so much. I thought of this vid today because the owner was attempting to warn potential buyers of what they would be getting into. This breed gives 100% 24/7 which is why the military and police forces of the world use them today probably more than any other breed. Perfect if they are trained by an expert, a disaster for the average person.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that genetic hardwiring...was originally hardwired by people breeding for fighting dogs. It can be re-wired by people breeding to reduce that aggression; the problem is that so many don't want to make that effort, and/or don't want that result.

You make the "average person" sound like a helpless, blithering idiot who knows nothing about dogs or about how to control and maintain them.

I wish I could refute that, but...I can't.

RD. said:
Just my personal opinion, but I would rather the govt intervene and stop the morons of the world, than have all these dogs suffer the fate of their irresponsible owners. You want the coolest dog on the block, no problem, pay the fee and sign the dotted liability line.
Click to expand...
Maybe the answer is similar to the graduated licencing practiced by some countries for motorcycle riders. A beginning rider with a new licence is limited to a smaller-displacement bike (or a smaller, more controllable breed of dog), and only experience allows one to move forward with larger and larger displacements (or dogs).

I don't know. I find myself agreeing with you on virtually every point, the main differences being ones of degree and scale. I don't blame the dogs who attack people any more than I blame the fast cars, alcohol, guns and other mindless devices that are misused by people resulting in death and injury to others.

What's the answer? The Powers That Be are simply more people, like the rest of us; just as dumb on average, equally greedy and self-serving, concerned not with helping those they govern but rather with getting re-elected for another term. I just can't trust them to make the intelligent choice regarding this issue, since they fail to do so regarding so many others.
 
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