How Sustainable is Antarctic Krill as a Raw Ingredient?

[skjl47]

The closest evidence I could find towards ethanol causing hunger is that it impacted the price of corn, which could have caused a spike in some food prices, increasing difficulties for those who cant afford to feed themselves. The only other indirect impact it may have had was allocation of fields and resources that could have been used for food crops because the corn for ethanol would pay better

Hello; Bingo. You hit the crux of the matter. There were spikes in price of foods other than corn as well as a spike in the cost of corn due to the artificial reduction of corn available since a greater portion was diverted to be distilled into ethanol. Yes, the worst of the impact was on those who were already struggling to feed themselves and perhaps their families at the previous prices. A supply & demand sort of price increase. Less corn grain available meant other foods stocks were sought as a substitute, at higher cost.

Yes, a farmer will sell a crop to the higher bidder. Another factor can be if the buyer is going to be a regular customer season after season. Better to have a regular customer year after year which ethanol as a fuel additive is become.

 

[skjl47]

I sense another trip down memory school lane coming …….

In the mean time, I personally never fed corn, to my fish.

Hello; likely.

 

[skjl47]

culling is already underway. Happened a while back when corn was diverted from being food over to a fuel additive. The sudden grain shortage caused a level of food shortage with some malnutrition and if I recall correctly some increase in deaths.

Hello; went back to see how the thread sidetracked to a heated discussion on corn. Interesting that the bit jumped upon was about an increase in deaths. Fair enough that I cannot confirm my recall about deaths from less food becoming available.

A point, but not the only point, was the powers that be made a decision based on priorities at the time. There was a disturbance in the oil patch in the early 2000's. There was at the time a credible notion the world was at or very near peak oil. Fuel prices were soaring sometimes day by day but for sure month by month. My old F-150 was totaled when a car hit it hard enough from the rear to crumple the bed and shear an axle off one side. I bought a new 2004 Silverado to replace it and soon the cost started jumping.
No long lines at the pumps as in the 1970's but pocketbook damaging price increases. The powers that be went to the ethanol in gasoline as a plan. I get why corn was chosen as i have already mentioned. A point about this plan, to me, was the clear signal sent with regard to a choice between food for people and, in this case, fuel for our vehicles. That was the specific point I was trying to make with regard to the culling conversation.

But some interesting things have resulted from the brief sidetrack into corn ethanol.

There are other, in my opinion, more important points regarding the corn ethanol for fuel plan. The greater point being that it took almost as much fossil fuel to grow, harvest, distill and transport the ethanol as it replaced. The notion, as advertised, was to increase the fuel supply by adding around 10% of ethanol into gasoline supplies. Some early estimates declared no net gain. Later estimates claimed a small net gain. For an example only- it might take 19 gallons of fossil fuel (often diesel) to yield 20 gallons of ethanol. A net gain of one gallon. NOTE- I am not saying these are exact ratios.

Additional points could be made. Ethanol has a higher-octane rating but substantially less energy density. A trade off. Better prevention of detonation (Spark knock or pre-ignition) but less MPG's.
Alcohol fuels are especially hard on older vehicles parts. Most newer cars have gaskets, hoses and such designed to live with ethanol.
The ethanol & gasoline fuel mix is prone to separate after time. Not so good to let sit around a long time. Thai can be mitigated with the use of fuel stabilizers. I look for marine type Stai-Bil or the type labeled for ethanol gas. Seems to work.

Ethanol is not as good at absorbing water as isopropyl alcohol. I no longer need to use small bottles of isopropyl alcohol in my gas during the winter months. I still try to keep over half a tank of fuel during the winter months. I member on a Mustang forum I visit posted a picture of fuel taken from his tank. It had three distinct layers. I suspected gasoline, ethanol & water. He had misfires.

 

[jjohnwm]

John stop dancing around it already and tell us what you're calling your new human meat derived fish food company.

Actually, I pretty much gave up on people-as-fish-food; way more work than you might think it would be. Lots of push-back from my wife, also...

I briefly considered going the for-human-consumption route...preliminary testing with the first batches seemed to indicate that the neighbours preferred it 2-to-1 over pork!...but again, there were issues. Among other things, I believe that MGM holds a patent on the idea.

Hello; I have not found a link to starvation, so I retract that claim. There are links to increased hunger.

Thanks to the internet, there are now "links" to anything you can dream up. Anybody and his dog can post some nonsensical BS on the internet; see my earlier comments above for proof of that. Then when someone does a search and gets AI involved, all that garbage comes bubbling up to the surface. But you can't just post a link to it and think that you are strengthening your position in a debate. Did you read all of that ^ link? Wow...it does not really come across as a measured, reasonable presentation of the situation. For example:

“We are witnessing the beginning of one of the great tragedies of history,” says Lester Brown, an analyst of global resources who founded the Worldwatch Institute and now heads the Earth Policy Institute.

Holy crap, Les; hyperbole much? What, did the Worldwatch Institute not frighten enough people, so you felt forced to switch over to the Earth Policy Institute? I see you're an "analyst of global resources"; what kind of certification does that position require?

Everyone knows the old saying about how the strength of a chain is limited by its weakest link. Some folks on here often appear to be trying to forge an entire chain strictly out of the weakest links available, culled from some of the most questionable sources.

Personally, I'm looking for a link to a description of how to convert people directly into biodiesel.

 

[skjl47]

Did you read all of that ^ link? Wow...it does not really come across as a measured, reasonable presentation of the situation. For example:

“We are witnessing the beginning of one of the great tragedies of history,” says Lester Brown, an analyst of global resources who founded the Worldwatch Institute and now heads the Earth Policy Institute.

Hello; I went to the link I posted earlier because I do not recall the quote you post. I did not find the quote.
I copied the text of that link below. It is fairly short. I do not know where you got the statement in red.

Does Corn for Ethanol Fuel Increase Hunger?​

Yes — diverting large amounts of corn to ethanol production can contribute to higher food prices and, in some cases, increased hunger, especially in low-income countries.

Global food price impacts
When corn is used to make ethanol, it reduces the supply available for human food, animal feed, and other uses. This can drive up prices for grains and related products. Between 2006 and 2008, rising corn demand for ethanol pushed global grain prices to record highs, which disproportionately affected low-income grain-importing countries. The World Food Programme reported that this price spike pushed the number of hungry people worldwide above 1 billion for the first time in 2009 Sustainablog.

Scale of diversion
In the U.S., over 20% of the corn crop has been used for ethanol since 2005, with some years seeing more than 45% New England Complex Systems Institute. The amount of corn needed to fill a tank of ethanol-blended gas is equivalent to feeding one person for a day New England Complex Systems Institute. Globally, diverting one quarter of U.S. grain to ethanol could feed 330 million people for a year at average world consumption levels Sustainablog.

Indirect effects
Corn used for ethanol often replaces other food uses, such as livestock feed, which in turn affects meat, dairy, and egg supplies. In countries where corn is a staple, reducing its availability can directly reduce food access. In other regions, higher grain prices can reduce purchasing power for other foods pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1.

Not all corn is “food”
Some of the corn diverted to ethanol is already used for non-food purposes like high-fructose corn syrup or animal feed, so the direct “food vs. fuel” trade-off is less clear in the U.S. News Bureau | ILLINOIS. However, in countries where corn is a primary food source, the impact is more direct.

Bottom line
While the U.S. domestic food supply is not immediately threatened by ethanol use, the global effect — especially in poorer nations — can be significant. Diverting large volumes of corn to fuel can raise food prices, reduce availability, and contribute to hunger in vulnerable populations

 

[jjohnwm]

S skjl47 you said: "Hello; I went to the link I posted earlier because I do not recall the quote you post. I did not find the quote... I do not know where you got the statement in red."


The link you provided in post #97 took me to a list of sites; the first one listed was:

Food vs. Fuel: Diversion of Crops Could Cause More Hunger - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I did not read the initial AI regurgitation of "facts" that preceded the above site. Upon visiting that ^ site, the quote I lifted is part of the very first sentence of the second paragraph. It's just one of many colourful phrases sprinkled throughout the thing; "nothing left to eat", "generating global food insecurity on a scale never seen before", "biofuel production is morally unacceptable and irresponsible", and so forth.

The entire effect is that of an exaggerated and overly dramatic presentation of one side of the debate. Again, this is what was found at a link that you provided; I didn't make it up and certainly didn't surf around looking for it myself.

 

[skjl47]

Thanks to the internet, there are now "links" to anything you can dream up. Anybody and his dog can post some nonsensical BS on the internet; see my earlier comments above for proof of that. Then when someone does a search and gets AI involved, all that garbage comes bubbling up to the surface. But you can't just post a link to it and think that you are strengthening your position in a debate.

Hello; I am not the sort who thinks just because something is posted on the internet such must be correct. I tend to come up with opinions on my own by thinking about stuff. There are catch 22's. If I post using my own thoughts such are dismissed as only my opinion. I I find supporting links on the internet then such is dismissed as could be faked or every possible variation of opinion is on the internet.

So back to my personally derived opinion. While i have not been to every state in the USA in the last 20+ years 10% ethanol fuel is common. I am on automobile forums on which most states have members. We ae currently posting about fuel prices. I gather from such 10% ethanol is common. You can get 85% ethanol fuel used by hot rodders to gain more performance. My take is that requires lots & lots of corn to make the ethanol.
From the link i posted an average of 20% of the corn crop is used annually to make ethanol for fuel mix with gasoline. My father lived in Indiana from the late 1960's to his death in the early 2000's. I made the trip to Indianapolis often during corn growing season. My crude estimations being 20% of all the corn is a lot of food which is not being used as food.

Back in the early 2000's there was a genuine concern over "peak oil". Old wells were way down on production. New oil fields were not being found at a rate considered to be enough to maintain future supply. One of those "something will come up" series of events happened and ways to revive old wells are developed. Natural gas recovery is up from fracking. So, the peak oil crisis is at the least postponed. A heartbreak for the anti-fossil fuel folks to see decades more supply at hand.
I question the need to continue corn ethanol enhancement of the fuel supply. Not clear the crisis continues to exist. But I am also torn about reverting the corn now used to make fuel back into food products. A thing I have noticed since the early 1960's has been with an increased food supply follows an increase in population. Since the main windmill I tilted against 50+ years ago was overpopulation, I cannot prevent my take being that more human population will accelerate the conditions i feared back then.

let me end by making clearer my thinking on population stabilization never included "culling" at all. The idea was ZPG (Zero Population Growth). Simply that each individual replaces themselves only. A couple would agree to have only two children. Nothing dire involved. The net result would be a stable population at the time ZPG happened. No violence nor anything gruesome such as abortion involved.
But I and others lost and that windmill was not tilted. I am resigned to the facts.

 

[skjl47]

S skjl47 you said: "Hello; I went to the link I posted earlier because I do not recall the quote you post. I did not find the quote... I do not know where you got the statement in red."


The link you provided in post #97 took me to a list of sites; the first one listed was:

Food vs. Fuel: Diversion of Crops Could Cause More Hunger - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I did not read the initial AI regurgitation of "facts" that preceded the above site. Upon visiting that ^ site, the quote I lifted is part of the very first sentence of the second paragraph. It's just one of many colourful phrases sprinkled throughout the thing; "nothing left to eat", "generating global food insecurity on a scale never seen before", "biofuel production is morally unacceptable and irresponsible", and so forth.

The entire effect is that of an exaggerated and overly dramatic presentation of one side of the debate. Again, this is what was found at a link that you provided; I didn't make it up and certainly didn't surf around looking for it myself.

Hello; I went back to my post #97 and opened the link. I posted the text of the link in my post #105.

 

[skjl47]

Hello; I went to the link I posted earlier because I do not recall the quote you post. I did not find the quote.
I copied the text of that link below. It is fairly short. I do not know where you got the statement in red.

Does Corn for Ethanol Fuel Increase Hunger?​

Yes — diverting large amounts of corn to ethanol production can contribute to higher food prices and, in some cases, increased hunger, especially in low-income countries.

Global food price impacts
When corn is used to make ethanol, it reduces the supply available for human food, animal feed, and other uses. This can drive up prices for grains and related products. Between 2006 and 2008, rising corn demand for ethanol pushed global grain prices to record highs, which disproportionately affected low-income grain-importing countries. The World Food Programme reported that this price spike pushed the number of hungry people worldwide above 1 billion for the first time in 2009 Sustainablog.

Scale of diversion
In the U.S., over 20% of the corn crop has been used for ethanol since 2005, with some years seeing more than 45% New England Complex Systems Institute. The amount of corn needed to fill a tank of ethanol-blended gas is equivalent to feeding one person for a day New England Complex Systems Institute. Globally, diverting one quarter of U.S. grain to ethanol could feed 330 million people for a year at average world consumption levels Sustainablog.

Indirect effects
Corn used for ethanol often replaces other food uses, such as livestock feed, which in turn affects meat, dairy, and egg supplies. In countries where corn is a staple, reducing its availability can directly reduce food access. In other regions, higher grain prices can reduce purchasing power for other foods pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1.

Not all corn is “food”
Some of the corn diverted to ethanol is already used for non-food purposes like high-fructose corn syrup or animal feed, so the direct “food vs. fuel” trade-off is less clear in the U.S. News Bureau | ILLINOIS. However, in countries where corn is a primary food source, the impact is more direct.

Bottom line
While the U.S. domestic food supply is not immediately threatened by ethanol use, the global effect — especially in poorer nations — can be significant. Diverting large volumes of corn to fuel can raise food prices, reduce availability, and contribute to hunger in vulnerable populations

Hello; For reasons not known by me some do not want to acknowledge things surrounding overpopulation. While i am likely too concerned the issue is no longer a factor of my personal life. I am childless and approaching 80 years of age. The children & grandchildren & great grandchildren I did not have are not competing for resources nor are they facing the future I feared when back in my 20's. I have often wished my fears were faults of my reasoning. That I was mistaken in my personal predictions for the future. Easier to live with my personally being mistaken than what I ferred.

The bit above of interest is the one saying a fill up of ethanol gasoline represents enough food to feed a person for a day. It would be more pleasant to think this is merely some internet delusion. Wish i could be that way. Oh well.

 

[jjohnwm]

Hello; I went back to my post #97 and opened the link. I posted the text of the link in my post #105.

Here ya go. Here's a screenshot of the results of the very first site proposed when I went to the link you provided. It's pretty long, not about to re-post the whole thing, but the beginning of the second paragraph gives a good idea of the flavour of the thing.


Notice the date; it's 18 years old! In today's world, that must be getting close to the point where science becomes downgraded to mythology, or maybe nostalgia.