converting adult discus colony to a breeding setup

[JakeAlmighty]

hey guys,

I have the opportunity to acquire 23 grown discus of the german lineage (stendker). They were originally purchased from Alberta Discus, who handle the importing of the german discus into Canada. To my knowledge this is the source of all twenty three fish. I do trust the current owner, she is a known responsible fish keeper.

She does not light her tank brightly so the photo does not capture them well, they are very beautiful in person. are they of the quality expected of the german line? I only knew enough to look for stress signs, peppering, stunted growth, etc and am not a discus expert. (yet!)

The 23 discus currently live in a single colony tank - will mostly adult/young adult discus like this still willingly form pairs for me to convert into a breeding setup? either pairs living separately from the colony, or removed together to spawn and then returned. (not a discus expert yet, feel free to enlighten me as to the best methods) Need to control the strains being paired together of course.

they currently engage in group spawning in the tank apparently, she does not allow any fry to survive as it is not controlled breeding.

she currently does a very large water change every 2nd day, this is not a problem as I'm doing large WCs on fry tanks every day currently anyways, so they simply get added in. she does however age her tap water in a rain barrel 24hrs+ (with big air line running through it) - is this required going forward? or can I switch to using tap water directly.

thank you for any info. fast replies appreciated, she's offered me a very good price for the entire lot and I need to pull the trigger or walk away. Wifely approval depends on them being successfully converted into a breeding setup for local/nearby shipped in Canada sale.

thanks!

 

[Fish Tank Travis]

As far as aging the water, this is necessary if you have a large ph swing in your water 24 hours out of the tap. Just test your waters ph from the tap and then test it again after its been sitting out for 24 hours. If it's more than a .2 shift, you should really age your water. Discus are extremely sensitive to shifts in ph.

I am curious what size tank the owner keeps them in. 23 discus in one tank should be in a 220 gal or larger tank. If they are being kept in a smaller tank then I would question the care they have received. Once they have become stunted from poor care, they cannot recover.

For breeding, I believe that some of the fish in the picture look old enough to breed, but I don't really think any of those discus look to be all that high quality. It could be the lighting though. There definitely looks like there are some stunted ones though.

Here's a really good video for discus. Way worth the hour and twenty minutes.

 

[JakeAlmighty]

As far as aging the water, this is necessary if you have a large ph swing in your water 24 hours out of the tap. Just test your waters ph from the tap and then test it again after its been sitting out for 24 hours. If it's more than a .2 shift, you should really age your water. Discus are extremely sensitive to shifts in ph.

I am curious what size tank the owner keeps them in. 23 discus in one tank should be in a 220 gal or larger tank. If they are being kept in a smaller tank then I would question the care they have received. Once they have become stunted from poor care, they cannot recover.

For breeding, I believe that some of the fish in the picture look old enough to breed, but I don't really think any of those discus look to be all that high quality. It could be the lighting though. There definitely looks like there are some stunted ones though.

Here's a really good video for discus. Way worth the hour and twenty minutes.

I will age some water to test it when I get a chance later. I believe her tank is a 6ft 180 gallon (presumably 6x2x2).

They do look a lot better in person than in the picture. (I used a light when I went to examine) she only uses a small 24-36" or so t8 on one side of the tank so it is very dim, but thats the pic she had sent me in advance.

some of them may be a bit stunted, not sure. I know there's at least 3 different ages in the group as they were added in waves.

 

[Fish Tank Travis]

In a group that large, some will be stunted simply based on survival of the fittest. Being that she added discus three separate times, I would be worried that the larger discus would have kept food from the smaller new additions, causing them stress and stunting due to a lack of food.

Lastly, as far as water changes go, I would be curious what she considers a large water change every two days. If it's 50% or higher, then I'd say that's ok, but for growing discus from juvies to adults, with a group that large, in a tank that size, I would expect a daily 50% water change or around 80-90% every two days.

I really think you should watch the video above. It should pretty much cover everything you've asked, plus a ton more.

What size tank do you plan on keeping them in?

Also, if you're wanting to get into breeding, have you thought about getting half a dozen top quality discus from a reputable vendor? If you are going to breed and sell your discus, then this is truly the best way to go. You can get the strains you want and have paperwork to prove where your breeding pairs came from. You can also ensure that they will be having proper care for their upbringing and life. It's a large initial investment, but it's well worth it in the long run.

I'm not trying to say that the person you're buying from is a bad fish keeper, but I've seen some red flags that make me think he/she might be inexperienced at keeping discus. It could be that they are trying to sell off their discus because they have not cared for them properly and are now trying to just unload them on someone else, hence the good deal they are offering.

Again, check out the video. Also, if you're really serious about getting into breeding, check out SimplyDiscus. It's an excellent forum for discus keeping, breeding, buying, selling...you name it.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[JakeAlmighty]

In a group that large, some will be stunted simply based on survival of the fittest. Being that she added discus three separate times, I would be worried that the larger discus would have kept food from the smaller new additions, causing them stress and stunting due to a lack of food.

Lastly, as far as water changes go, I would be curious what she considers a large water change every two days. If it's 50% or higher, then I'd say that's ok, but for growing discus from juvies to adults, with a group that large, in a tank that size, I would expect a daily 50% water change or around 80-90% every two days.

I really think you should watch the video above. It should pretty much cover everything you've asked, plus a ton more.

What size tank do you plan on keeping them in?

Also, if you're wanting to get into breeding, have you thought about getting half a dozen top quality discus from a reputable vendor? If you are going to breed and sell your discus, then this is truly the best way to go. You can get the strains you want and have paperwork to prove where your breeding pairs came from. You can also ensure that they will be having proper care for their upbringing and life. It's a large initial investment, but it's well worth it in the long run.

I'm not trying to say that the person you're buying from is a bad fish keeper, but I've seen some red flags that make me think he/she might be inexperienced at keeping discus. It could be that they are trying to sell off their discus because they have not cared for them properly and are now trying to just unload them on someone else, hence the good deal they are offering.

Again, check out the video. Also, if you're really serious about getting into breeding, check out SimplyDiscus. It's an excellent forum for discus keeping, breeding, buying, selling...you name it.

Good luck and keep us posted!

first off thanks for all the info! I was at work all day the day you posted, but I've had a chance to watch most of the video now. (and join the simplydiscus forum to begin reading)

I've also learned a lot of new info regarding the situation since then as I managed to talk to her directly, before she had messaged me and then I was unable to reach her directly, and so communicated with her daughter. (who is not a fish person)

Her original message simply said she was getting rid of them because she would no longer be able to do the maintenance - I've learned since then she's been diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and wants the fish to go to a home where they'll be taken care of. Her WC schedule as told to me was 90% every second day, aged in her heated, aerated rain barrel.

I don't know if 90% every 2nd day was religiously carried out or not.

regarding the fish themselves - they are not German as the daughter told me, they are asian discus. They came from two different vendors, the aforementioned Alberta Discus (I confirmed with them via email that they only import and sell asian discus and wilds from SA, no german discus) and CanadianAquaFarm. (who are a listed sponsor on the simplydiscus list) She did receive papers of some kind with each of her orders, I'm not sure what is on them.

re: tank options

a) their current tank would be included with them as part of the deal offered to me. So continuing to house them in it is an option. I do have some bigger tanks available, but those could not be forever as I have some large CA species growing out that are going to need them in the long run.

b) splitting the colony into two groups. I have plenty of open tanks in the 75g to 150g range, so splitting them into two could help correct the overstocking problem. If some are removed from the colony to breed on a regular basis the current tank may suffice anyways though.

c) reselling some of the discus locally and maintaining a smaller colony. I do generally feel pretty terrible when I take peoples setups for the tanks, and then turn around and sell their fish in the local groups. I feel less bad when I do it with mbuna as I strongly dislike the little bastards, and would feel extra bad doing it with beautiful discus. but it is an option.



random thoughts

- not a terrible way for me to gain experience with the keeping and husbandry of discus before ordering expensive top end discus of my own in the future.

- might be some great quality ones in the mix. If I ordered my own they would quite possibly be from Canadian AquaFarm or Alberta Discus anyways. Hard to tell until I actually have possession of the 23 fish and can sort through them.

- I do want her tank and equipment to add to my fishrooms. Tanks in that size and up are pretty scarce in my area of Canada, so I like to grab anything that I can. The overall bulk price she wanted is very good when you factor in the tank, her FX5 filter, etc

I did get a hold of another couple random pics of the fish. (same bad lighting unfortunately)

I remain undecided for now. I do need to decide one way or the other or she will look for someone else in our area to take them.

thanks again for all the info and advice so far Fish Tank Travis! you are amazing.

 

[Fish Tank Travis]

first off thanks for all the info! I was at work all day the day you posted, but I've had a chance to watch most of the video now. (and join the simplydiscus forum to begin reading)

I've also learned a lot of new info regarding the situation since then as I managed to talk to her directly, before she had messaged me and then I was unable to reach her directly, and so communicated with her daughter. (who is not a fish person)

Her original message simply said she was getting rid of them because she would no longer be able to do the maintenance - I've learned since then she's been diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and wants the fish to go to a home where they'll be taken care of. Her WC schedule as told to me was 90% every second day, aged in her heated, aerated rain barrel.

I don't know if 90% every 2nd day was religiously carried out or not.

regarding the fish themselves - they are not German as the daughter told me, they are asian discus. They came from two different vendors, the aforementioned Alberta Discus (I confirmed with them via email that they only import and sell asian discus and wilds from SA, no german discus) and CanadianAquaFarm. (who are a listed sponsor on the simplydiscus list) She did receive papers of some kind with each of her orders, I'm not sure what is on them.

re: tank options

a) their current tank would be included with them as part of the deal offered to me. So continuing to house them in it is an option. I do have some bigger tanks available, but those could not be forever as I have some large CA species growing out that are going to need them in the long run.

b) splitting the colony into two groups. I have plenty of open tanks in the 75g to 150g range, so splitting them into two could help correct the overstocking problem. If some are removed from the colony to breed on a regular basis the current tank may suffice anyways though.

c) reselling some of the discus locally and maintaining a smaller colony. I do generally feel pretty terrible when I take peoples setups for the tanks, and then turn around and sell their fish in the local groups. I feel less bad when I do it with mbuna as I strongly dislike the little bastards, and would feel extra bad doing it with beautiful discus. but it is an option.



random thoughts

- not a terrible way for me to gain experience with the keeping and husbandry of discus before ordering expensive top end discus of my own in the future.

- might be some great quality ones in the mix. If I ordered my own they would quite possibly be from Canadian AquaFarm or Alberta Discus anyways. Hard to tell until I actually have possession of the 23 fish and can sort through them.

- I do want her tank and equipment to add to my fishrooms. Tanks in that size and up are pretty scarce in my area of Canada, so I like to grab anything that I can. The overall bulk price she wanted is very good when you factor in the tank, her FX5 filter, etc

I did get a hold of another couple random pics of the fish. (same bad lighting unfortunately)

I remain undecided for now. I do need to decide one way or the other or she will look for someone else in our area to take them.

thanks again for all the info and advice so far Fish Tank Travis! you are amazing.

Given all of that information, I would think it could be a worthwhile investment. If you can get copies of the paperwork, that will probably increase the value of the fish, and their offspring down the line.

What I would do with them is set up 3-4 tanks, ranging from 75-150gal and split them into groups based on size, assuming you have that many tanks available. Then, I recommend keeping up with the water change schedule that the previous owner did, 90% every two days. However, more definitely wouldn't hurt. Try to feed the smaller fish 3 times a day with high protein food, and the larger fish should be fine with 1-2 times a day. Make sure you siphon out any uneaten food and waste left over from feeding.

From here, you can start to decide which ones you want to keep and which ones you want to get rid of, if any. I think that with a group that large, there are definitely going to be some stunted fish though. It's up to you if you want to get rid of them or just put the ones you don't want breeding into a separate tank and keep them. However, if you're getting into discus breeding, you're probably going to have to get used to culling the unattractive and small fish.

Once you get them all growing out to decent size, you can start grouping like colors into 55-75 gallon tanks and wait for them to pair off. Once paired, you can move the pairs into 29-40 gallon tanks for breeding purposes. This is as far as I can really take you as I have never researched much about breeding discus.

If you're successful in this endeavor, and you want to continue breeding discus, then you could look at investing in some high quality breeding pairs from places like Uncle Sam's Discus and Discus Hans (the only North American source for Stendker discus directly).

 

[JakeAlmighty]

Given all of that information, I would think it could be a worthwhile investment. If you can get copies of the paperwork, that will probably increase the value of the fish, and their offspring down the line.

What I would do with them is set up 3-4 tanks, ranging from 75-150gal and split them into groups based on size, assuming you have that many tanks available. Then, I recommend keeping up with the water change schedule that the previous owner did, 90% every two days. However, more definitely wouldn't hurt. Try to feed the smaller fish 3 times a day with high protein food, and the larger fish should be fine with 1-2 times a day. Make sure you siphon out any uneaten food and waste left over from feeding.

From here, you can start to decide which ones you want to keep and which ones you want to get rid of, if any. I think that with a group that large, there are definitely going to be some stunted fish though. It's up to you if you want to get rid of them or just put the ones you don't want breeding into a separate tank and keep them. However, if you're getting into discus breeding, you're probably going to have to get used to culling the unattractive and small fish.

Once you get them all growing out to decent size, you can start grouping like colors into 55-75 gallon tanks and wait for them to pair off. Once paired, you can move the pairs into 29-40 gallon tanks for breeding purposes. This is as far as I can really take you as I have never researched much about breeding discus.

If you're successful in this endeavor, and you want to continue breeding discus, then you could look at investing in some high quality breeding pairs from places like Uncle Sam's Discus and Discus Hans (the only North American source for Stendker discus directly).

this I can do. thanks for all the help. she's in the hospital for at least another week receiving chemotherapy, so it will probably be several weeks before I can take possession of the fish and get high quality photos of each fish. I'll post back here and on simplydiscus when I'm all set up. thanks!


oh, and I've managed to source a large IBC tote from a friend for free to use for my water aging setup. They store some chemical in them at his work, but with thorough cleaning they're apparently completely safe. He uses them in his backyard to house his goldfish during the warmer part of the year. it's somewhere between 250g and 360g depending on how you measure and fill it.

I will find out what chemical they store in them and do some research before setting it up, in case any residual would have an effect on the more sensitive discus.

thanks again!