Do you agree or disagree?

Drstrangelove

Potamotrygon
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Oct 21, 2012
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Good point, I myself was confused at the question I was responding too, as you can tell. Part of the ban does include those people releasing them into the ponds, rivers, etc. I am saying that there should be a law to make a person sign a paper if they want to own a big monster fish. The paper would state that the buyer is responsible for the fish, the size it reaches, and will be held responsible for rehoming. I bet that would be a big help. I know up here, people have to sign papers for dogs, cats, and some reptiles and exotic birds, why can't we do it with the monster fish? It doesn't have to be every fish available in the hobby hell not even Oscars, just the fish like pacu, ID sharks, rtc, etc.
I looked but I couldn't find anything for Mass that relates to a person owning or buying a dog, cat, reptile or bird. Can you tell us what the paper is for or even post a link?

Regardless, dogs, cats, reptiles and birds are completely different as all of them can leave an apartment or house and certainly in some cases of dogs or reptiles, cause real harm. A fish can't even leave a room, and most can't even leave a tank.

I hate to bring up such examples, but if the state can intrude when we buy a fish ---simply on the excuse that it's for the good of the fish---- then why can't it intrude for what size tank we have to have, how many water changes, what nitrate levels, what food we need to feed, etc?

Beyond protecting endangered species or the ecosystem, where is the line going to be drawn?

And if we let the state dictate or intrude on something truly not life threatening to anyone, then why can't it do the same for everything that is a bit dangerous? People die from falling off ladders and step stools, hurt themselves (or worse) with hot water, fire places, knives, stairs, lawn mowers, power saws, showers, toasters, ovens, space heaters, etc.

Should we ban those? Should we force people to "sign papers"? Or make them take tests or go through a training course?

Most fish species fail to come close to meeting even the lowest possible standard for being in the public's interest to be regulated.
 
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robham777

Potamotrygon
MFK Member
Jan 9, 2013
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I looked but I couldn't find anything for Mass that relates to a person owning or buying a dog, cat, reptile or bird. Can you tell us what the paper is for or even post a link?

Regardless, dogs, cats, reptiles and birds are completely different as all of them can leave an apartment or house and certainly in some cases of dogs or reptiles, cause real harm. A fish can't even leave a room, and most can't even leave a tank.

I hate to bring up such examples, but if the state can intrude when we buy a fish ---simply on the excuse that it's for the good of the fish---- then why can't it intrude for what size tank we have to have, how many water changes, what nitrate levels, what food we need to feed, etc?

Beyond protecting endangered species or the ecosystem, where is the line going to be drawn?

And if we let the state dictate or intrude on something truly not life threatening to anyone, then why can't it do the same for everything that is a bit dangerous? People die from falling off ladders and step stools, hurt themselves (or worse) with hot water, fire places, knives, stairs, lawn mowers, power saws, showers, toasters, ovens, space heaters, etc.

Should we ban those? Should we force people to "sign papers"? Or make them take tests or go through a training course?

Most fish species fail to come close to meeting even the lowest possible standard for being in the public's interest to be regulated.
Signing papers sounds a lot like paying a fee to me. Basically the number one reason the government gets involved in regulating most things. REVENUE!
 

FunWow!

Redtail Catfish
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Jul 30, 2008
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If people can't research size of a fish these days they are just lazy. That pace you got wasn't a impulse buy... you knew from years of fish keeping it was going to get to big but you wanted it anyway. So that shouldn't be a reason to ban cause of selfishness. Banning anything is just stupid cause there are plenty of people out there that can handle monster fish/afford them. Comes down to how committed you are. For example I could say let's ban cats cause of the fact household cats kill a bunch of animals when let outside all year round, crap in people's yards, get hit by cars but is that fair towards owners that keep them inside that actually care about them... NO!...so the same goes for keepers in the hobby. This is a monster fish keeping site where we came to show our love toward big fish.... Learn, teach, breed, etc....
 
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J. H.

Potamotrygon
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Oct 14, 2016
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Good point, I myself was confused at the question I was responding too, as you can tell. Part of the ban does include those people releasing them into the ponds, rivers, etc. I am saying that there should be a law to make a person sign a paper if they want to own a big monster fish. The paper would state that the buyer is responsible for the fish, the size it reaches, and will be held responsible for rehoming. I bet that would be a big help. I know up here, people have to sign papers for dogs, cats, and some reptiles and exotic birds, why can't we do it with the monster fish? It doesn't have to be every fish available in the hobby hell not even Oscars, just the fish like pacu, ID sharks, rtc, etc.
And now you are being unfair to koi keepers and those who raise their fish to eat them. I don't believe in being cruel to animals, but If you decide that you tinfoil barbs become lunch when they outgrow your 55 rather than spend $750+ on a tank that they fit in, what's wrong with that? I eat farmed fish with no feelings of guilt, and my fish are treated much better than probably most farmed fish. (No, I would not have had the heart to do this to some of my fish, but some others...) If you are worried about warning people, NY has passed such laws about certain fish, such as goldfish, and I don't think they change anything. I would ban all SUVs long before I would ban RTCs.
 
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A

AquaAlex1993

Guest
I looked but I couldn't find anything for Mass that relates to a person owning or buying a dog, cat, reptile or bird. Can you tell us what the paper is for or even post a link?

Regardless, dogs, cats, reptiles and birds are completely different as all of them can leave an apartment or house and certainly in some cases of dogs or reptiles, cause real harm. A fish can't even leave a room, and most can't even leave a tank.

I hate to bring up such examples, but if the state can intrude when we buy a fish ---simply on the excuse that it's for the good of the fish---- then why can't it intrude for what size tank we have to have, how many water changes, what nitrate levels, what food we need to feed, etc?

Beyond protecting endangered species or the ecosystem, where is the line going to be drawn?

And if we let the state dictate or intrude on something truly not life threatening to anyone, then why can't it do the same for everything that is a bit dangerous? People die from falling off ladders and step stools, hurt themselves (or worse) with hot water, fire places, knives, stairs, lawn mowers, power saws, showers, toasters, ovens, space heaters, etc.

Should we ban those? Should we force people to "sign papers"? Or make them take tests or go through a training course?

Most fish species fail to come close to meeting even the lowest possible standard for being in the public's interest to be regulated.
Where I bought my baby Brandi from, I had to sign paper work. I am not sure why, I guess it's just so that I know what I am getting into.
Brandi is a beagle, I got her from an established puppy breeder with a good rep. They breed beagles, bassets, labs, and golden retrievers.

22472261_1674737499265837_2080349398_o.jpg
 
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AquaAlex1993

Guest
After reading through some of the posts, I do have to agree with you guys. The fish should NOT be banned. More people need to learn to research fish before buying them. I wish more Local fish stores and pet stores would put warnings on the tank that these fish are in.
Only three fish stores in my area do.
Usually it's something like:
Warning this fish will grow to (insert size) and will require a bigger aquarium than most.
 
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Mighty Wizard

Candiru
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Aug 8, 2017
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After reading through some of the posts, I do have to agree with you guys. The fish should NOT be banned. More people need to learn to research fish before buying them. I wish more Local fish stores and pet stores would put warnings on the tank that these fish are in.
Only three fish stores in my area do.
Usually it's something like:
Warning this fish will grow to (insert size) and will require a bigger aquarium than most.
One of my LFS has a similar tank, one with Angelfish and Ropes, and one with Oscars and some other Cichlids. It's clearly printed on the tank that these fish get big, but they all sell really well still, because they're all very fancy. Take juvenile Oscars for example, with those beautiful fractal patterns. People see them and think "**** it, I can buy a bigger tank in a year or so". Then the year goes by quicker than they would've ever thought and the Oscar is huge and unhappy. I've already bought one big second-hand rope that I know originally came from this store. Interestingly the same shop has a tank full of little baby Gibbies, with no size warnings whatsoever, even though it's clearly the species that grow to over 30-40cm.

I really think that the only remotely effective way of "fixing" this problem without pissing anyone off, would be to make them order-only. Let people use the internet as their shopping window, hopefully educating them in the process. Making people sign papers and register their animals would certainly fix the problem, but any state or government that passed such a decree would need to spend a lot of money to actually see it through. They'd have to establish a system to handle such things, and keep that system running, so sadly I think its unlikely to happen any time soon.

Lovely dog by the way :D
 
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FLA

Polypterus
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Feb 1, 2017
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This conversation has been beaten to death for years on this forum. Government intervention is a dangerous and slippery slope. There seems to be a consensus on here that endangered fish should be banned and that is a bit misguided as well. There is very little reason to ban an endangered fish outside of it's native range. Many Goodieds find themselves in a dire situation in their native homes, but are pretty easy to find on aquabid. Some of these species would not exist if it weren't for the hobby. The red tail black shark is listed on the IUCN red list as critically endangered (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/7807/0), but can be purchased at petsmart for less than $10 in the US. This is due to the hobby being interested in the fish in the first place. Now much of its habitat is damaged, but the hobby is still humming along consuming hundreds of thousands of them each year most captive bred in Florida.

There are some that would like to see an animal like this protected under ESA. International law already exist to protect animals in their natural habitat. This is why we have CITES. We should invest in making Cites work better.

As for extremely large fish I am very skeptical of the last time anyone bought a RTC from petsmart. The big chains have been learning that big fish come back and create headaches for them. They even dropped tinfoil barbs two years ago. They still sell common plecos and other large fish, but it is getting better. Your LFS probably still sells RTCs, Goonch, Pacu, Cichla, and TSNs, but industry wide those numbers have dropped dramatically. We have made tremendous progress in the hobby educating people to avoid such fish. The onus needs to be on the store owner to set up customers to succeed. They need to do that on their own without outside intervention.

We must always remember that as a hobby we are under siege. There are those that will never accept keeping a fish in a box. For them a 100 gallon tank is not big enough for 5 zebra danios. If we give them any legal power over supply they will wield this against us. The inch of fish per gallon rule of thumb in the aquarium hobby is often recommended as being placed in regulation for fish farms. This makes aquaculture impossible. We know that with adequate filtration we can meet the needs of fish in very dense situations. Many of the tanks on MFK break this "rule", but the fish are healthy. We put that rule of thumb together to help people get into the hobby that weren't going to understand what a stocking density is, much less how to calculate biomass.

Off topic a bit I feel it is important to mention. The reptile hobby went crazy promoting captive raised as the only good source of reptiles. Now some are pushing for regulation requiring only captive raised reptiles. Some are going so far as to request the egg be shipped with the animal. This all sounds good, but what happens when an incubator hatches and you pull out ten lizard and ten eggshells. Someone eventually is going to test the eggshell and say that doesn't match this lizard. Then the farm will be accused of cheating the system.

More importantly this ignores the fact that many animals can be collected from the wild sustainably. Sometimes this sustainable collection provides an economic incentive to protect an environment. This is the core of what project piaba is doing in the Amazon. If you take wild animals out of the trade then you remove the incentive to protect the environment.

It is interesting this conversation started out of Massachusetts. Cambridge MA passed a ban on retail sales of commercially bred pets, excluding fish. Don't be foolish enough to think that fish weren't discussed. It is just too hard to sell that to the general public at this time. Attitudes will shift, and they already have. Look at where food comes from. Down here we have a great grocery store chain called Publix. Years ago they removed the signs from the meat counters that show where each cut of meat comes from on an animal. I talked to several meat managers and they said they were told that "customers don't want to think about their steak coming from a cow". Now many people simply don't think about it. 50 years ago everyone would have told you the most tender cuts of beef come from the middle of the animal. This makes sense because a cow doesn't use his back as much as his legs. Now I meet many people who say I just like to know meat comes from the grocery store and that liquid in the package is just meat juice.

The most important part to remember when discussing regulation is who will be implementing it. No one is going to ask experienced hobbyist and let them set the rules. Instead a government official will write a law based on the loudest voice which is always a well funded lobbyist. Those are never the hobby's lobbyist.

If you want to look at the insanity of rules look no further than the interstate transport ban on salamanders due to bsal fears. Nearly 200 species of salamander (many native) can no longer be taken across state lines due to the fear that they may carry bsal. The fact that they are kept in glass boxes and not exposed to the wild was not taken into consideration. However the native tiger salmander whose larvae are used for bait was not included. It seems there is a huge fear of captive salamanders transferring bsal to the wild, but not the ones that get a hook placed through them and dunked into wild and remote bodies of water.

A final note on lobbying and information. If you want to support the hobby in a meaningful way the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council has an Aquatics Defense Fund you can donate to here. We fall way behind the reptile keepers who support USARK very well. Hopefully this isn't a violation of MFK rules, but here is the link. http://pijac.org/aquatic
 
A

AquaAlex1993

Guest
One of my LFS has a similar tank, one with Angelfish and Ropes, and one with Oscars and some other Cichlids. It's clearly printed on the tank that these fish get big, but they all sell really well still, because they're all very fancy. Take juvenile Oscars for example, with those beautiful fractal patterns. People see them and think "**** it, I can buy a bigger tank in a year or so". Then the year goes by quicker than they would've ever thought and the Oscar is huge and unhappy. I've already bought one big second-hand rope that I know originally came from this store. Interestingly the same shop has a tank full of little baby Gibbies, with no size warnings whatsoever, even though it's clearly the species that grow to over 30-40cm.

I really think that the only remotely effective way of "fixing" this problem without pissing anyone off, would be to make them order-only. Let people use the internet as their shopping window, hopefully educating them in the process. Making people sign papers and register their animals would certainly fix the problem, but any state or government that passed such a decree would need to spend a lot of money to actually see it through. They'd have to establish a system to handle such things, and keep that system running, so sadly I think its unlikely to happen any time soon.

Lovely dog by the way
:D
I agree 100 percent with you on this one. I no longer think that there should be a ban on monster fish after seeing all the responses. However, as you said, they need to be Special Orders only that way they are not commonly available.
Thank you, Brandi is my side kick, she loves to stand by me when I am doing a water change because if any of the freshwater spills she gets it. Sometimes, she falls asleep right next to my fish tank. And when I say, Brandi wanna go feed the fish she runs to the freezer where I keep my market shrimp and frozen foods and follows me to the fish room. Beagles are really smart and have a human like mind. I love my Brandi.


This conversation has been beaten to death for years on this forum. Government intervention is a dangerous and slippery slope. There seems to be a consensus on here that endangered fish should be banned and that is a bit misguided as well. There is very little reason to ban an endangered fish outside of it's native range. Many Goodieds find themselves in a dire situation in their native homes, but are pretty easy to find on aquabid. Some of these species would not exist if it weren't for the hobby. The red tail black shark is listed on the IUCN red list as critically endangered (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/7807/0), but can be purchased at petsmart for less than $10 in the US. This is due to the hobby being interested in the fish in the first place. Now much of its habitat is damaged, but the hobby is still humming along consuming hundreds of thousands of them each year most captive bred in Florida.

There are some that would like to see an animal like this protected under ESA. International law already exist to protect animals in their natural habitat. This is why we have CITES. We should invest in making Cites work better.

As for extremely large fish I am very skeptical of the last time anyone bought a RTC from petsmart. The big chains have been learning that big fish come back and create headaches for them. They even dropped tinfoil barbs two years ago. They still sell common plecos and other large fish, but it is getting better. Your LFS probably still sells RTCs, Goonch, Pacu, Cichla, and TSNs, but industry wide those numbers have dropped dramatically. We have made tremendous progress in the hobby educating people to avoid such fish. The onus needs to be on the store owner to set up customers to succeed. They need to do that on their own without outside intervention.

We must always remember that as a hobby we are under siege. There are those that will never accept keeping a fish in a box. For them a 100 gallon tank is not big enough for 5 zebra danios. If we give them any legal power over supply they will wield this against us. The inch of fish per gallon rule of thumb in the aquarium hobby is often recommended as being placed in regulation for fish farms. This makes aquaculture impossible. We know that with adequate filtration we can meet the needs of fish in very dense situations. Many of the tanks on MFK break this "rule", but the fish are healthy. We put that rule of thumb together to help people get into the hobby that weren't going to understand what a stocking density is, much less how to calculate biomass.

Off topic a bit I feel it is important to mention. The reptile hobby went crazy promoting captive raised as the only good source of reptiles. Now some are pushing for regulation requiring only captive raised reptiles. Some are going so far as to request the egg be shipped with the animal. This all sounds good, but what happens when an incubator hatches and you pull out ten lizard and ten eggshells. Someone eventually is going to test the eggshell and say that doesn't match this lizard. Then the farm will be accused of cheating the system.

More importantly this ignores the fact that many animals can be collected from the wild sustainably. Sometimes this sustainable collection provides an economic incentive to protect an environment. This is the core of what project piaba is doing in the Amazon. If you take wild animals out of the trade then you remove the incentive to protect the environment.

It is interesting this conversation started out of Massachusetts. Cambridge MA passed a ban on retail sales of commercially bred pets, excluding fish. Don't be foolish enough to think that fish weren't discussed. It is just too hard to sell that to the general public at this time. Attitudes will shift, and they already have. Look at where food comes from. Down here we have a great grocery store chain called Publix. Years ago they removed the signs from the meat counters that show where each cut of meat comes from on an animal. I talked to several meat managers and they said they were told that "customers don't want to think about their steak coming from a cow". Now many people simply don't think about it. 50 years ago everyone would have told you the most tender cuts of beef come from the middle of the animal. This makes sense because a cow doesn't use his back as much as his legs. Now I meet many people who say I just like to know meat comes from the grocery store and that liquid in the package is just meat juice.

The most important part to remember when discussing regulation is who will be implementing it. No one is going to ask experienced hobbyist and let them set the rules. Instead a government official will write a law based on the loudest voice which is always a well funded lobbyist. Those are never the hobby's lobbyist.

If you want to look at the insanity of rules look no further than the interstate transport ban on salamanders due to bsal fears. Nearly 200 species of salamander (many native) can no longer be taken across state lines due to the fear that they may carry bsal. The fact that they are kept in glass boxes and not exposed to the wild was not taken into consideration. However the native tiger salmander whose larvae are used for bait was not included. It seems there is a huge fear of captive salamanders transferring bsal to the wild, but not the ones that get a hook placed through them and dunked into wild and remote bodies of water.

A final note on lobbying and information. If you want to support the hobby in a meaningful way the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council has an Aquatics Defense Fund you can donate to here. We fall way behind the reptile keepers who support USARK very well. Hopefully this isn't a violation of MFK rules, but here is the link. http://pijac.org/aquatic
You have some valid points. A lot of things have definitely changed. My grocery stores have signs but I'll have to check and see if they have where the meat is on the animal. I do know that they do have sticky notes about which meats are tender and the best, which are for stews and soups, etc.
You have said some wonderful things and this was well written my friend.
 
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